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There has been a bit of pomposity in this thread.
Just be happy with your own riding, no need to look down on other people.
BPW is great.
Natural rides (as much as any UK riding is natural) are great.
Flow trails are great.
Slow, stuttery, tech trails are great.
It's all riding bikes, which is great.
Anything that gets people out riding their bikes is great.
If you don't like riding somewhere, don't ride there.
A few people in the thread need to get over themselves.
+1 that
Tom_W1987 -
Making a comparison between audiophiles and mountain bikers should be worthy of a stoning.
and this?
[i]It seems to be a softie southern thing, this obsession with blues.[/i]
just a left hook to the temple I reckon
Are you a t3@t if you drive a T5? 😕
tl;dr the thread, but 😀 ...
BPW definitely has had a negative impact on trail centre riding in south Wales. Speaking with people who run B&Bs and the like round Afan they say the same and find they're losing business.
It's also having an impact on general expectations of riding. Everyone wants to be full on Enduro, and when they can't do BPW they want to make everything like BPW everywhere else. Gnar trails a plenty with drops and gaps wherever possible in the likes of Surrey Hills. Dig and shred, and screw the land owners and anyone who's not rad enough 😉 . Bikes and kit are all BPW / Enduro ready. Everything is going long, slack and wide.
And I'm not sure it's a good thing. The industry will follow the market and push it further to sell more, while leaving behind the trail, xc, even all mountain riding.
IMO... with a bit of tongue in cheek here 😉
(and I do like BPW, but it's also a victim of its own success. Way too busy, somewhat overhyped now too. It's great, but not worth the cost and three month wait for a ticket, the bus queues and inadequate cafe etc facilities).
Way too busy, somewhat overhyped now too. It's great, but not worth the cost and three month wait for a ticket, the bus queues and inadequate cafe etc
I've never found the trails to be busy at BPW. I've always thought they could get away with having more people riding even when it's fully booked. Also the uplift seemed to dramatically improve a year or so ago. Been a couple of times since and barely had to wait at all, most times just straight in the van.
Agree the cafe seems permanently rammed and so I've never bothered queuing for food and just take my own lunch.
just a left hook to the temple I reckon
😆
It's always been slightly overhyped, ever since they tried to say they weren't a trail centre at the beginning. Now they're happy to accept awards for being the 'Best Trail Centre 2017'.
It really depends upon your speed down the hill as to whether you find the uplift fast, slow or just annoying. The drivers have figured out how quickly (or slowly depending upon your disposition) they need to get up and down to arrive to a full queue ready to get loaded and cut down on waiting times for them. If you're in a group and have a bi of waiting mid-hill then you probably find it fine but if you're faster or slower than that you will either end up waiting at the bottom for a bus to arrive or get there just as one leaves or join a large queue. I've had to have a chat with the management at one point after the drivers were deliberately hanging about further up the hill to avoid being the last bus of the day. I and a few other riders had to wait for nearly 30 mins for the bus to pull up for last run as the other drivers were basically blocking the uplift road and wouldn't radio down to out driver to say what was happening. This happened on 2 visits in a row so I had words before I left. Massively different to the drivers at Antur who goad you for not getting on the bus the millisecond you get down the hill or, god forbid, think about missing a run out to have a rest 😆
BPW definitely has had a negative impact on trail centre riding in south Wales. Speaking with people who run B&Bs and the like round Afan they say the same and find they're losing business.
This is definitely happening and it's pretty much out of their control. They have no say over trail developments and without decent trails there won't be any visitors.
Antur is the most efficient uplift I've used. Down, bus is loading, no queue, up, go again. That considering I'm no DHer and mince down really. Though maybe the fastest guys have to wait a little 😉
FoD is usually pretty good too.
Can't see how something that's hugely successful is a problem. Wales should deliver more. Afan could have developed the same uplift and trails but didn't. And they could have done it way before BPW. It's a market economy? Deliver what people want. BPW could improve its food!
or, god forbid, think about missing a run out to have a rest
Haha yep, been there.
Yep, it should be the stepping stone to lift the level at the other venues.
We are about to get a version here, honestly it's going to be a great lift to the area and the riding options available.
(and I do like BPW, but it's also a victim of its own success. Way too busy, somewhat overhyped now too. It's great, but not worth the cost and three month wait for a ticket, the bus queues and inadequate cafe etc facilities).
Confused. Too busy ? I went on a Saturday in July and the trails were quite empty and bus queues very short. They were running a full capacity and I didn't encounter any issues so for me it's the opposite, they have conservatively managed the yield so that it doesn't become a victim of its own success by matching number of uplift sold to capacity. That's probably what surprised me the most.
Inadequate cafe : you are VERY difficult to please. I found it superb and affordable and I am a fussy bugger.
Antur is the most efficient uplift I've used.
I can corroborate this, I got as many runs in the morning at Antur as I did in an entite day at BPW. Partly because its a quicker drive up and partly because they dont hang around till the bus is full.
I found Antur to be a better experience tbh.
Antur has a tarmac road to the top which I believe was paid for by however the zip wire business was funded - unsurprisingly minibuses are a lot quicker up that than BPW's dirt road.
And they've always called it a trail centre - here's the original press release:
http://www.cognation.co.uk/official-opening-bikepark-wales
You can't blame people for wanting all their shits and giggles without the physical effort of riding uphill, or the mental effort of having to navigate and find good trails - it's human nature to avoid the stuff we don't like or find difficult or plain boring.
I think effort and difficult are the key words here. It goes some way to explaining why the UK as whole are fat buffers, the popularity of ready to eat microwave meals, peoples' reliance on cars, personal debt and sodding ebikes. We live in an instant gratification age. Everyone wants the destination without the journey, be that looking trim for your Instafacegram, eating a jacket potato (I saw microwavable jacket potatoes the other day! I was shocked...), having money for your holiday, getting to the top of a hill or getting a buzz without actually having to put much effort in.
I love day at a park but you cant beat natural terrain. its just harder
I agree. Up until last year when I visited Afan and Nant-yr-Arien (sp?) I had never ridden at a trail centre. During that trip to sales I also ride down Snowdon. Snowdon sticks out the most in my memory.
This year I visited with my GF and we rode Afan, Bewts-y-Coed, and Coed y Brenin. All great fun but the ride through the Elan Valley and over to Rhayader was, despite the larger amount of track and tarmac, the most fun and hardest. We're not some kind of masochists, but there was certainly a greater sense of having done something than any of those days at a trail centre despite having not ridden as far.
I ride in a fair few other locations in Europe with purpose built trails and I must say that the Welsh centres offer a great day out. The facilities are usually good. There are showers for a start! For families they are fantastic. But, they are generally built so that just about anyone can ride them and they are devoted of any proper features.
Ride at La Thuile and you'll find lots of tight switchbacks.
Lots of rock gardens where line choice is key at Reschen.
Plenty of places in Finale where it's do-or-die.
I think effort and difficult are the key words here. It goes some way to explaining why the UK as whole are fat buffers, the popularity of ready to eat microwave meals, peoples' reliance on cars, personal debt and sodding ebikes. We live in an instant gratification age. Everyone wants the destination without the journey, be that looking trim for your Instafacegram, eating a jacket potato (I saw microwavable jacket potatoes the other day! I was shocked...), having money for your holiday, getting to the top of a hill or getting a buzz without actually having to put much effort in.
Cheer up, it's not that bad.
We are about to get a version here, honestly it's going to be a great lift to the area and the riding options available
Maydena? If that's what you're referring to, then yes it looks incredible!! Definitely on the bucket list for a big trip with the family in a few years 🙂
As for the tracks Sam Hill's helping them develop - I'll make no promises as to getting down quick.....
I find it laughable that people are judging a MTB venue on the quality of the cafe...speaks volumes for the state of the nation.
Missing a bus and having a rest, drivers set their speed based on the apprent skill of their passengers at BPW?! Really, I must have misread that due to the beer. Most of the drivers have never ridden a bike in anger.
At the weekend there’s about 8 buses on, you’re not supposed to catch the same one every time, they come in 2s and 3s. Also they’re told to drive at a set speed of 15mph (it think) it’s means they have to close less to fix the road and it allows them to squeeze the max number of buses in, it’s like a ballet, sort of.
So we now have a country covered in trail centres but still have all the natural trails, and lots of folks crafting and creating new ones or titivating old ones. Only STW could find the negative in this..
For the record though I agree that natural trails are more memorable, especially if they involve pushing and carrying to the top. Although the outright speed of the Blues at BPW feels really good.
And locally I will carry on building slow and techy or steep and thrutchy depending on which area of riding I feel I am weakest at (all areas sadly!)
I'd better add Trailforks to the list of positives too, awesome.
P-jay - I was talking to one of the drivers who had just started and he said they were asked to try and get a minimum amount of uplifts in per day. He was taking that as a minimum so wanted to get a few more in whereas some of the others were deliberately pacing themselves to only get in that minimum amount. It was a direct split between those who rode and those who don't according to him. He was visibly peeved off with it. As long as they arrived, loaded a full load and got in the requisite number of uplifts they have done their job.
I like BPW, it's a great facility, but it too often leaves me feeling like it's treating me as a number to balance the books. The dig crew are great to talk to and do a great job but the enthusiasm that was there at the beginning has waned somewhat and has been replaced with a bit of a corporate culture. Inevitable as the place has grown I suppose but it does grate with me.
I think effort and difficult are the key words here. It goes some way to explaining why the UK as whole are fat buffers
no, that will be the huge amounts of sugar and extra calories in every-ones food.
I still can't believe someone hasn't realised the potential that place has (other than the locals and riders). Decent facilities and a mechanical uplift would make that place a mecca for UK mountain biking..
Get on it then - bike park scotland awaits! Things like bpw need that person/group of people to take that initiative and put things into action.
Talking of natural trails, passed the drip-ins to the ferociously steep home-made/natural trails at Sirhowy today. They look pretty hardcore...
Biggest problem there is the 200m of ascent required to get back to the top for another go 🙂
Wales should deliver more. Afan could have developed the same uplift and trails but didn't. And they could have done it way before BPW. It's a market economy? Deliver what people want.
You do know that Wales is essentially a third world country, don't you? It's why Afan etc. had a lot of help from the EU, to help build tourism. It's also a government project, so in that respect Afan has a dwell among and compete with all the other projects that helps Wales create jobs and generate income.
I'm not defending Afan or BPW, but sweeping statements like 'Wales should deliver more' are akin to advising a Premier League manager how to run his team from the bar of a local pub.
Get on it then - bike park scotland awaits! Things like bpw need that person/group of people to take that initiative and put things into action.
Agreed. That 'somebody should do something!' could be you.
always enjoyed Afan but i do think the huge amount of logging done kind of ruined the fell of the place a bit.
Saying that I haven't been back for a few years so maybe it's got a bit better?
milky1980 - Member
P-jay - I was talking to one of the drivers who had just started and he said they were asked to try and get a minimum amount of uplifts in per day. He was taking that as a minimum so wanted to get a few more in whereas some of the others were deliberately pacing themselves to only get in that minimum amount. It was a direct split between those who rode and those who don't according to him. He was visibly peeved off with it. As long as they arrived, loaded a full load and got in the requisite number of uplifts they have done their job.I like BPW, it's a great facility, but it too often leaves me feeling like it's treating me as a number to balance the books. The dig crew are great to talk to and do a great job but the enthusiasm that was there at the beginning has waned somewhat and has been replaced with a bit of a corporate culture. Inevitable as the place has grown I suppose but it does grate with me.
Was that a very fit looking guy with a long neck? He's a bit odd, seemed a bit paranoid and twitchy.
Anyway, it might have been true, then but in more recent months, maybe more than a year or so they're given a set speed to drive 'enforced' by Tachograph. It's partly because before they did, the drivers would go a bit wild and it was wrecking the road and vehicles (I know of at least one who crashed off the side of the road coming back down) meaning closing more for maintenance and less vans.
It's actually brilliantly organised (I'm a geek for processes and systems) it's a single carriageway road, for the most part they're using the same road up and down, but there's up to 8 vans on it (maybe more now) so they have to move in a certain way so they don't end up face to face trying to pass (they can't really on most of it) so they all move at the same speed - when they leave the pick-up point they radio the other drives in broken valley's speech and it sends the other to their next passing point.
I'm sure someone said 6 Vans was the max they could have before, but someone managed to update the 'system' to allow more. At 6 they were sort of stuck, the only way they though to improve it would be massive upgrade the uplift road and make it a loop, or the leap to a lift - but it's a leap of faith.
I take your point about feeling a bit 'cold' sometimes, I don't know who manages the business element of BPW (doubt it's Rowan, he seems so chill) but they seems a solid business manager, there are procedures for everything and it makes for smooth running, these sorts of places easily fall into chaos otherwise. I personally don't like working with strict processes, ironically I like building them, but hate them myself.
always enjoyed Afan but i do think the huge amount of logging done kind of ruined the fell of the place a bit.Saying that I haven't been back for a few years so maybe it's got a bit better?
Depends on how far back you're talking, but sadly, not much.
The new descent on White's is great, but the old version just isn't the same without trees, Penhydd is sad now, Jim Cro is fast if souless, Hidden Valley or whatever it's called is just rough, the surface just blew / washed away and it's just unpleasant to ride, not tech enough to ride slow, too rough to ride fast.
always enjoyed Afan but i do think the huge amount of logging done kind of ruined the [b]fell[/b] of the place a bit.
Unintentional pun? 😆
Afan (and all the other trail centres) are working forests, once the trees are the size required and there's a market then they are going to be felled. Trail centres just add to the cash flow to help with the fifty years or so between planting and felling.
When I first started going to BPW I was surprised at how many females and young kids there were. Coming from a skatepark background you never used to see many women or young kids really giving it a go!
My gripes with BPW is the queue for collecting your uplift pass in the morning, the lack of showers and the condition of the entrance road from the roundabout to the car park!
Afan (and all the other trail centres) are working forests, once the trees are the size required and there's a market then they are going to be felled. Trail centres just add to the cash flow to help with the fifty years or so between planting and felling.
I believe the majority of trees felled at Afan were to stop the spread of a disease attacking the larch.
I believe the majority of trees felled at Afan were to stop the spread of a disease attacking the larch.
Yeah this, I get the impression their remit has changed too - they could have replanted everywhere with more fast growing pine trees, but they didn't.
They seem to want to either plant native tress or just leave them for nature to do it's thing.
Seems more about creating carbon sinks, nature sanctuaries and stuff for people to do these days.
It's almost a shame though, they harvested the top of Cwmcarn in 2005/2006ish and it's still pretty barren now, I guess the usual 'Xmas' tree type trees they used to plant would be a decent size in 10/12 years.
I live local to BPW and Afan, but never really goto BPW, it's a tourist destination. The local scene in Afan is thriving, I ride three times a week and never touch trail centre tracks. BPW and the trail centres are just scrapping the surface. Q
Biggest problem there is the 200m of ascent required to get back to the top for another go
A max 30 min ride back up?!
Even I know you're capable of this, moly... 😉
rob8624 - Member
I live local to BPW and Afan, but never really goto BPW, it's a tourist destination. The local scene in Afan is thriving, I ride three times a week and never touch trail centre tracks. BPW and the trail centres are just scrapping the surface. Q
You need to invite us non locals !
It's 5km and 250m all fire road. Doable, but you wouldn't get many runs in 🙂
For me a pedal up day is 4 runs. More if you pick the right trail and skip the last bit - it’s 20 mins or so from the part where the uplift road crosses the XC climb to where Terry’s really starts,
deadkenny - MemberBPW definitely has had a negative impact on trail centre riding in south Wales. Speaking with people who run B&Bs and the like round Afan they say the same and find they're losing business.
That's not just about BPW- Afan is pretty neglected now and the changes it's had lately were through necessity and some of them pretty shoddy. COnsidering that people complain if there's a big puddle at Glentress, finding lines entirely blocked with brambles and hte like at afan was a surprise.
For us, we basically only do south wales as part of a tour, I doubt I'd be in there if it wasn't for BPW so Rose Cottage get us for a week every year while we bomb around FOD, BPW, BMCC and Afan.
"Im definitely NOT having a go at folk who only ride trail centres.
yeah you are, even if you don't think you are. In print, statements that start "I've never understood why..." imply superiority, they imply that it's a non question.
I'm sure you can understand completely why folk would choose a trail centre over a more natural ride, it's blindingly obvious to even the most dimwitted and you'd have to be pretty dishonest with yourself and others if you pretend you can't. Which is why the "I don't understand" statement is so disingenuous"
Spot on chap.
I've never ridden BPW, and I expect that I never will.
We (my wife and I) visited a couple of years ago, looking to ride the next day (it was typical Welsh weather - so tipping it down but a great forecast for the following day). We ride a hardtail tandem, and we'd already enquired about riding. When we got there we were told that we couldn't ride as "A decision to not allow tandems were made chiefly due to the trails not being built with them in mind, our trails feature drop-offs, wall drops, jumps and tight berms, which were (maybe incorrectly) perceived to be more risky if riding a tandem"
As the trail builder at Ae said when we were chatting with him later in the year - " none of them are built for tandems".
Just to be clear - we weren't planning massive jumps, stupid drop offs - but we did want to explore the trails we thought we'd be capable of - fast long flowy descents are meat and drink to us. Tight technical stuff's a challenge - and that's part of the fun - the "can we do that" - together. But inclusivity stopped at us.
So, we go to Afan, 7 Stanes etc. if we want to ride a trail centre, or expore the Chilterns/Berkshire/Hampshire if not. And for a uick blast we go to Swinley as it's round the corner. We're pretty happy - there's still lots to explore and we've still got all those £8 we'd have been charged (or would it be £16?) if we rode BPW.
I can't think of anything more annoying than meeting a tandem on at a trail centre, so I'm glad you are staying away.