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I’m fine with it
I know you are. All of the people who illegally modify their bikes are. Yet, like I said in my post..
Posts by people saying “the only risk is to them” – ignoring the accidents they can and do cause
...you're this sort of person. I.E. the sort of person who doesn't care about other people - or only cares about them as long as it doesn't get in the way of your enjoyment.
But like Mr Beerepoot, "a counsellor at a medical rehabilitation centre in Amsterdam working with people with brain injuries" said:
We noticed in the last year more and more e-bike accidents. It’s not only the people on the bike but people on the bike path who are hit by the bikes that are just going too fast
I guess most people in the Netherlands don't benefit from being fully padded up and wearing a full-face helmet when they get hit by derestricted ebikes, like my missus has been.
Twice.
but people on the bike path who are hit by the bikes that are just going too fast
those bikes are not modified
the thing you miss is on Netherlands bike paths most conventional bikes are doing 7-10 mph. Ebikes 15. Its that speed differential that causes accidents not modified bikes
I have ridden hundreds of miles in both Dutch cities and countryside and never seen a modified ebike. However unmodified ones are still much aster than most cyclists ride there and the ebikes are usually ridden by retired folk who have not ridden for decades.
thats a real issue. Modified ebikes are not in the netherlands
Modified ebikes maybe an issue in the UK. riding like a numpty ebike or not certainly is in the UK
the dutch do not by and large break the rules.
So was your missus hit by modified ebikes in the netherlands?Have you ridden in the netherlands?
Interesting take @tjagain - that your OK with your anecdotal evidence trumping that of medical professionals in the Netherlands - especially the ones who say normal ebikes aren't the problem and derestricted ones are.
Regardless - to my point about the industry glamourising derestricted ebikes - that they're not even hush-hush but plain-sight:
...Q.E.D.
Apart from thats not what those medical professionals say. they say its the speed differential thats the issue which occurs between legal ebikes and the usual dutch cyclists. there is a a result a move to restrict ebikes to 15 kph in cities.
Seeing as your argument is about he netherlands I ask you again. Was it in the netherlands your missus got hit? have you ridden in the netherlands?
Or are you reading into that article what you want to read into it? It makes no distinction between modified andunmodified and all the incidents it uses as examples are to do with unmodifed
As above - I think modified ebikes can be an issue in UK cities. They are not in the netherlands.
If it doesn’t need pedalling it’s an e-motorbike but of course that isn’t good enough to get cyclists frothing so let’s call them e-bikes. We all know a derestricted e-bike still needs the rider to pedal and is much more dangerous at 20mph than a non e-bike doing 20mph 🙄
I know you are. All of the people who illegally modify their bikes are. Yet, like I said in my post.
yep my boat anchor is safer at ~20mph keeping up with traffic than the 15mph cut off. It's 1st gen Shimano 6000 and pretty much unpedallable above 15mph.
I still haven't crashed into anyone.
I haven't read the article but I have ridden in the Netherlands a fair bit. What struck me was a very relaxed attitude towards safety. Lots of stuff that would get you roundly moaned at on here. Maybe the Dutch aren't all saints after all just because they cycle a lot, and are in fact just fairly normal people?
Also, in the Netherlands as in much of Europe there is another category of legal e-bikes which does 45kph and has a registration and insurance. Quick, unmodified and legal. And ripping around a cyclepath at 45kph can be pretty unsafe if done irresponsibly just like an illegal be bike in the UK.
Its just a different attitude. IMo they are more concerned about safety but its active safety not passive safety. so good road design not helmets. So low car speed limits not hi viz
amsrterdam is increasing the number of 30kph limits to improve cycle safety. You almost never share a road with cars going over 30 kph. cycles have priority over cars in urban areas
safety is seen as something you design into roads and cycleways not something that cyclists do by what they wear
How do I change a thread title? It could help me with the frustration I feel from titles that refer to “confectionery” based bike theft for starters!
Also, in the Netherlands as in much of Europe there is another category of legal e-bikes which does 45kph and has a registration and insurance. Quick, unmodified and legal. And ripping around a cyclepath at 45kph can be pretty unsafe if done irresponsibly just like an illegal be bike in the UK.
Not on a cycle path there isn't.
In much the same way you can* legally ride a restricted petrol scooter on a cycle path - but not the unrestricted version.
*Well you could when I lived in den helder.
So much banding about of 'illegal' like these things are dragsters doing 50 in a 30. Most de-restricted are going at 25, though usually less.
One thing that annoys me about my Ebike is the 15.5mph, though in truth the motor clicks off at about 16.1mph, and thats factory, nowt to do with me.
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But even then thats slower than even my unfit bod would ride a standard reasonably heavy mtb(about 28lbs) I'd say my usual cruising speed there is 16-20mph, with the occasional blast at 25+mph, so i feel the Emtb is actually holding me back.
.
Sure I suppose on average over a longer distance where my energy levels drop, it probably evens out to about 15mph, but i still feel like that is slow and the restrictions are holding me back.
If I were to derestrict mine to go at ab.out 20mph, that would probably, though illegal, still be completely safe to ride, and maybe a little bit safer in usual traffic.
Plus, like many here my brakes and kit are spot on and capable of stopping me at speed. Plus im long enough in the tooth in commuting to A. Be able to read the conditions and react accordingly, and B. Not to bust the arse out it by bombing along a pavement or precinct at anything over 9 or 10mh.
.
But all this is pretty meaning;less given the most basic of basic small cars have a top speed close to 100mph, and few of them if any are capable of stopping at any sort of safe distance at those kind of speeds, nor are the cars themselves capable of surviving such an accident intact. Yet, these are perfectly legal, and I've yet to see a thread on here lambasting them because of their obvious deficiencies.
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SO. Cars- of any brand or make can have the ability of breaking the speed limits , which is obviously illegal, but Ebikes must never, ever, how very dare they have the same option, even though we're nowhere near comparing their speeds. Also illegal yes, but on a logical level, the restrictions are themselves illogical.
It is the rider(or driver) not the vehicle itself.
With these facts in mind, i wonder then why the reactions from people on this thread.
For the record I am against de-restricting being an easy thing to do, mainly because many Ebikes today have poor components in the side of safety - brakes, so if unrestricted, stopping would likely be beyond safe distances. But thats thee only reason. Each(as with cars) have the responsibility themselves, not a nanny state.
Now. Who here believes in a nanny state ?. What ??? 😕 None of you.....how odd in light of the above answers(rants)
😀
If I were to derestrict mine to go at ab.out 20mph, that would probably, though illegal, still be completely safe to ride, and maybe a little bit safer in usual traffic.
And still within the town centre speed limit.
And still within the town centre speed limit
TBH the 20mph on the road probably isn’t a big deal but it wouldn’t be used solely on the road,it would be used on real cycling infrastructure mixed with people pootling around.
(I think the fat bikes were being singled out as there seems to be a lot of folding fat bikes being marketed at a around the £1k price that are good for 27 mph+)
Like the engwe Hambini had.
So much banding about of ‘illegal’ like these things are dragsters doing 50 in a 30. Most de-restricted are going at 25, though usually less.
TBH they could well be thou :-),the brand I’ve mentioned have reviewers talking about 40-45 MPH speeds although the official declared max speed are way lower.
(Tbh I did contemplate getting one for a run around as they are cheap compared to the nice specalized’s but I’m a bike tart and they is well fugly and too naughty)
So much banding about of ‘illegal’ like these things are dragsters doing 50 in a 30. Most de-restricted are going at 25, though usually less.
The yoof I see pretty much every day coming in the opposite direction to me on his ebike seems to making fairly good progress down the outside lane of the dual carriageway with no helmet when I see him, I'm pretty sure he's not doing 15.2mph.
SO. Cars- of any brand or make can have the ability of breaking the speed limits , which is obviously illegal, but Ebikes must never, ever, how very dare they have the same option, even though we’re nowhere near comparing their speeds. Also illegal yes, but on a logical level, the restrictions are themselves illogical.
Yes, but we have special things called motorways that you basically have to be on to achieve those kind of speeds you're talking about, and rules that prevent, say, slow old ladies walking down said motorway at the same time. I'm guessing most of the issue people have with (derestricted) ebikes is they're still used on paths and pedestrian areas and the speed differential (and heft of the bikes) becomes more of an issue.
As above, I kinda don't mind some idiot plowing into an HGV doing 40mph on his ebike, if he wants to wear a balaclava as head protection then so be it. Doing the same on a pavement with other pedestrians is the problem.
Yep. More people complaining that 15.5mph is poop and they can do that on a "normal" bike and look at cars eh? They go 100mph! And nobody complains!
So, get yourself a proper motorbike or electric moped, a licence, insurance and get yourself on the road - and away from cycle lanes, pavements and slower moving actual real bike and pedestrian traffic.
End of.
Its really not the end of
Both the journalist writing that article and you have totally misrepresented what is happening in the netherlands and used that misunderstanding to further their fight against ebikes
As I have explained. The issue in the netherlands is legal ebikes mixing with non ebikes with a large speed differential causing accidents on their crowded cycleways
there is a a result a campaign to reduce the speed of ebikes from 25 kph to 15 kph
Illegally modified ebikes is simply not an issue there
Here conditions are very different. We do not have all the segregated cycleways and we do not have the bicycle congestion that happens in the netherlands
Last time i was there I was riding at around 20 kph so constantly overtaking the majority of cyclists who do around 15 kph. it becomes like a car overtake - wait for a gap in the stream of bikes coming towards you then look behind and overtake when clear both in front and behind. Often when you glance behind there is a granny on a legal ebike doing 25kph about to overtake you. the biggest rise in injuries is retired folk on legal ebikes crashing
Thats what the issue is there and why they are considering a reduction in the legal ebike speed limit. Nothing to do with illegally modified ebikes
The issue in the netherlands is legal ebikes mixing with non ebikes
Not what is being said. The thrust of the argument is the age old basic physics that we know to be true - that differentials in speed are dangerous - be that in cars, bikes, pedestrians mixing with runners - whatever it is. It's the differential in speed that's the problem.
The whole article is about "souped-up" ebikes. About de-restricted ebikes. Because they have a higher differential of speed than normal run-of-the-mill ebikes.
The fact that you are trying, very hard, to undermine the total thrust of the article, that you're specifically trying to contain the converstaion to the Netherlands alone (which is ridiculous) makes me think you've got a derestricted ebike.
Have you?
No - I just like the truth
Read the article again. None of the incidents or quote are about modified ebike. Like you it conflated speed differentials with legal e bikes and none bikes with modified ebikes
the reason I am pushing on the netherlands aspect is that conditions over thereare very different and you are using a debate about the legal speed limit which is what is being debated in the netherlands to back your arguement about modified ebikes in the UK
so - have you ridden in the netherlands? Did your girlfriend get hit in the Netherlands? If no why is this article about the netherlands relevant to yor arguement?
I know journalists in the netherlands who are involved in this debate. this is why I know modified ebikes are not the issue there
there is an issue with ebikes that are being sold that are illegal. Again not the same issue as modified
It's dangerous riding restricted off road when jumps etc are on trails. Say a little 7ft gap, the flat speed needed is just above the restriction. You pedal and the asset drops out, you don't make distance . I think 20/25 mph cap is sensible
Funny. The issue is in the older generation according to you - and according to your own link it's the older generation who really like the modified ebikes.
You're arguing against the basic physics and disregarding what's actually being said (that derestricted ebikes lead to more accidents). Your attempted limiting of discussion to the netherlands (and to what journalists, not medical professionals are saying) is bizarre considering that whilst there's a lot more cyclists in the Netherlands as we move to a more-cycling model the UK will start to more closely resemble the netherlands in usage (and infrastructure) as time goes on. So it's relevant.
How about the United States? (from Reuters and The Journal of Injury Prevention)
E-bike-related injuries were also more than three times more likely to involve a collision with a pedestrian than either pedal bicycles (OR=3.3, 95% CI 0.5 to 23.6)
Three times more likely to hit a pedestrian. More than three times.
Let that sit there for a while.
That's not counting derestricted ebikes. That's just plain ebikes. But we know the basic physics - the speed differential bit - so derestriction is more dangerous than not.
@jedi - I absolutely get that point 100%.
However, who takes an ebike and only ever rides it offroad? (I mean, you might, given your proclivities - but 99% of people won't).
Unfortunately, your argument for a 20/25mph cap on ebikes so they can make jumps better disregards the basic fact that speed differentials in the, lets say, "normal world" are dangerous. - so the increased cap would be more dangerous to more people.
nothing to do with all the arguments already made but I (beach) race a few times each year in BEL & NED and the private shame I feel at being overtaken by countless OAPs as I drag myself (normally into a bettering headwind) back to HQ after turning myself inside for the previous couple of hours means I'd be in favour of banning everything, or at least limiting them to about the 8mph I'm normally capable of by then.
jedi
Full Member
It’s dangerous riding restricted off road when jumps etc are on trails. Say a little 7ft gap, the flat speed needed is just above the restriction. You pedal and the asset drops out, you don’t make distance . I think 20/25 mph cap is sensible
go round the obstacle that you are ill-equipped to ride. in the same way i might if i was riding say an 80mm XC race bike....
Chevy. they are NOT modified. They are speed pedelecs. Legal ebikes with a higher speed limit.
US ebikies are legal at 1000w with a higher speed limit. ( I can't remeber exactly) so once again nowt to do with the UK experience or the Dutch one.
But even then thats slower than even my unfit bod would ride a standard reasonably heavy mtb(about 28lbs) I’d say my usual cruising speed there is 16-20mph, with the occasional blast at 25+mph, so i feel the Emtb is actually holding me back.
I love how the e-bike threads bring out all the insanely fit trolls.
Seriously, who can "cruise" on an MTB at 18mph? That's about 40% faster than the fastest lap times at most trail centers!
Seriously, who can “cruise” on an MTB at 18mph? That’s about 40% faster than the fastest lap times at most trail centers!
Yep. My fastest "MTB" ride was in 2013. I'd taken a year off work and ridden about 25 miles a day, most days. I caught up with an old pal who professed being a roadie - who asked me if I fancied a ride. I said yes if he didn't mind going slow for me as I'd be on my (Mk2) Solaris.
He planned a 60 mile route (which, shockingly for me, had a section (single junction) of dual carriageway) - and I pushed my arse off for the whole thing.
He bonked and I didn't (which pleased me greatly) - but I still only managed to average 16mph. (Had 2.2" Conti mountain kings on - so bit of resistence).
There's still relevance @tjagain (it's 20mph limit in the US). So maybe that more than three comes down to twice as likely eh? It doesn't take much digging into UK accident statistics to show an emerging trend that ebikes are involved in both more accidents and more serious accidents as a percentage of journeys than normal bikes.
Why do you keep banging on about illegally modified ebikes when all your examples are about non modified legal ebikes? why do you keep on using examples of legal ebikes in other countries to try to make your point about illegally modified ebikes in the UK where conditions are very differnt?
its almost as if you have an agenda
From an environmental perspective, if a derestricted eBike gets someone out of a car and onto a bike, isn't it a good thing? I feel like we're being asked to get upset at other cyclists, distracting from the real issue (how cars dominate capitalist societies). I imagine gig-economy delivery riders have a pretty difficult life. I'm OK with them getting around a bit faster (It means my pizza is still warm when I get it).
Seriously, who can “cruise” on an MTB at 18mph? That’s about 40% faster than the fastest lap times at most trail centers!
Yes, I raised an eyebrow at that. But either way, derestricted eBike are annoying when I'm trying to race them on my non-e commute. For that reason alone, anyone who derestricts them should be banned, fined and then shot.
/s because I am finding it increasingly hard to recognise sarcasm.
I love how the e-bike threads bring out all the insanely fit trolls.
Do have to wonder why they bother with e-bikes. Personally if I was cruising at 20mph I would probably use it to train seriously and see how I do as a serious roadie.
I feel like we’re being asked to get upset at other cyclists
They arent cyclists though. They are people riding, often unsafe, motorbikes.
Why do you keep banging on about illegally modified ebikes when all your examples are about non modified legal ebikes?
Oh i think I know the answer to this one.
It's because his Mrs got in a tangle with someone at a popular trail centre and he seized the bike and did in depth testing on it to find out it was de restricted.
That then started his campaign to seek out any ebike threads on here and tell everyone it's all the fault of those nasty ebikes.
I almost went down the same route myself after seeing a nasty car hit Mrsstu and send her straight to hospital with broken bones.
Luckily i realized that posting on every car thread about that might make me look a little strange so I didn't bother.
TJ - I agree that the article is woolly on legal/modded ebikes.
But I think this quote (from the article) is pretty clear:
Esther van Garderen, director of the Fietsersbond, a cyclists’ union, is campaigning for quick enforcement of the speed-boost ban and prohibiting fast e-bikes in bike lanes. “The problem is not normal e-bikes, but ever more souped-up bikes that are basically illegal mopeds,” she said. “In the Netherlands, since January, moped users must wear a helmet and young people don’t like this. They also need to be 16 and have a driving licence, but illegal ‘fat’ bikes are just sold, youngsters under 16 use them on the roads going at 40kph, without a helmet. This isn’t allowed, but there is no enforcement.”
Yes - so not modified but sold deresticted or speed pedelecs being used inapropriatly in the main. Just conflating legal speed pedelecs being used inappropriately, illegal ebikes being sold and modified bikes
I did earlier say " almost all examples" and should have continued to do so
Read the dutch news articles I linked to to see what the issues are with more clarity
Still irrelevant to the position in the UK as laws and infrastructure and useage are vastly different in the Netherlands
Not on a cycle path there isn’t.
In much the same way you can* legally ride a restricted petrol scooter on a cycle path – but not the unrestricted version.
Sure? Petrol mopeds on cycle paths in the Netherlands, so I assumed pedalecs were too.
IMo they are more concerned about safety but its active safety not passive safety. so good road design not helmets. So low car speed limits not hi viz
I saw just as much dodgy riding when I was there as I would in the UK. Just not involving cars, because you aren't allowed on the roads if there's a cyclepath.
Seriously, who can “cruise” on an MTB at 18mph? That’s about 40% faster than the fastest lap times at most trail centers!
Cruising speed at any given point is completely different to your average speed, surely everyone knows this?
Sure? Petrol mopeds on cycle paths in the Netherlands, so I assumed pedalecs were too
the petrol mopeds operated under a restricted license - 15mph on the cycle path - different reg plate and license required.
You're wasting your time, you're not going to win. He's a massive troll and has a repertoire of contrary subjects he will wax lyrical about:
The world is stuffed because people drive too much and emit too much CO2
Cryptocurrency is brilliant and everyone should be embracing it
Ebikes are the spawn of satan
Stop paying him any attention and hopefully one day he'll just piss off and bother someone else. He's like our own personal Mike Vandeman.
Yes, but we have special things called motorways that you basically have to be on to achieve those kind of speeds you’re talking about, and rules that prevent, say, slow old ladies walking down said motorway at the same time.
I'd say if you're going to go to a ton you'd be doing it on any road you please, motorway or not. We have a nice section of 3 lane dual carriageway near me that would do nicely, I can think of a few single carriageways as well.
Why do you keep banging on about illegally modified ebikes when all your examples are about non modified legal ebikes?
No. No they're not.
edit: And:
Yes – so not modified but sold deresticted
If you're having to do ridiculous logical flips and twists to exclude things you don't like (they're derestricted ebikes whether they're modified or sold derestricted - they're still illegal) then that pretty much shows where you're at.
they’re still illegal
No they aren’t. The illegality comes from how they are being used, not that they exist. Like cars that go over 70mph.
No they aren’t. The illegality comes from how they are being used, not that they exist. Like cars that go over 70mph.
Yes. Yes they are. If they're being used in any public space then they MUST be restricted.
You can keep one in your garage if you like. Have fun in there.
You can keep one in your garage if you like. Have fun in there.
or ride it on private land. Be that you garage, or your land, or someone else’s who lets you ride it there. Or anywhere, as long as you have the correct tax/licenses/reg/insurance
Unlike a handgun, which is illegal, regardless of what you do with it.