[Closed] The demise of the local bike shop...

Perhaps the improving skill of the home mechanic has been forced by the incompetence of the LBS mechanic?

But which is the better option? I can see the advantage in becoming more skilled and able to carry out tasks yourself, but if this inadvertently takes work away for local services we may all be resigned to living in silos!

Personally the guy hasn't a clue about modern bikes and for me doesn't understand the obsessive nature of middle aged cyclists!

Ask to see the idiots mechanics qualification. Think the LBS may be in decline as mine never have what I want in the size I want and tell me I can have it within a week. Why would I bother when I can get it next day on the web? I can also buy the tools I need to my own mechanics for about the same price as they will charge to do the job once and I don't need to leave my bike with them for a week. Shops like cycleking will always stay in business as they are usually used by those looking for a cheap bike with no mechanical knowledge. Since cycling split into it's many different disciplines it becomes very difficult for shops to stock everything the enthusiast wants and the net makes it all so accessable ( I'm staring at a CRC advert as I type this ). I would miss my LBS if it goes but I'm afraid to say that they just don't cater for my needs.

My local shop is ace. 🙂

Local bikes hsops are needed and are most of the time very good.

You do here some stories of poor service but out of how many examples of good service.

I'd say stick with your local bike shop for major bit of work and kit and do the small stuff yourself. You dont got to the dentist to get him to brush you teeth.

Just my thoughts

Cheers

ShaunL

mine is crap too 🙁

but new one opened 8 miles away which is ace 😀

The thing about workshops at LBS is they're not exactly cheap and sometimes they can be crap but it's the price that keeps me away. Sure, they have to make a living, but 50 quid to swap brakes and crankset isn't something I can justify given it doesn't take me much more than an hour. By the time I've taken my bike down there, gone back to get it and paid I've spent an hour anyway.

I'd probably pay for wheelbuilding or fork/shock stripdowns but can't see the point for "normal" repairs.

My LBS is good. However their workshop is not really aimed at the likes of STWers - its more for the people who don't want to get their hands dirty

Too many on here have a totally unrealistic idea of what a workshop should change. Pay peanuts get monkeys - want a professional service then it costs. How much is your car mechanic charging?

handing over your bike to someone who is not obsessive about detail

In answer to your question re demise - there are many reasons but parts availability and cost savings/choice via the internet must be right up there eg. you could have bought the tools you needed to do headset and b/b for much less than the hourly rate. Having said that, I really miss not having a decent LBS and would be willing to pay extra for having the facility.

TJ - as you well know, comparing the cost and overheads of bike shop and garage is not valid as the capital equipment/premises/training/operating costs are hugely different. There is no way a bike shop can justify £50 an hour for labour alone as mentioned by Atlaz above. That's if it was [b]just labour[/b] of course and didn't include stuff like hose shortening/bleeding, chasing threads etc.

That level of incompetence in the OP is really aggravating - bolloxing up a headset fitting ffs.

The LBS has to make money, but I'd prefer it if they did so on their labour rather than parts mark-up. The one I use does really good work, and has bizarrely low labour costs. I got a hub pro2 serviced recently and got charged £35 for the bearings - about 100% mark up. Is this reasonable? Seems completely a over t to me. If the bloke had doubled his labour rate I wouldn't have complained - he's a superb mechanic and I'm happy to pay him for it. Making soft money on parts, though, doesn't sit right.

OK some valid points. The cost of the parts I was having put on the bike most likely came to around £400.00. In addition to this I was charged £125 labour which obviously equates to just over 20%. Now I'm quite busy and don't have loads of time to do the work myself, and I like the idea of use it or lose it when it comes to services like a local bike shop. What disappoints me is when I pay a decent amount of money on quality items only for them to be fitted by people who don't appreciate the difference or importance in the minor points in assembly. For example the chain I bought needing to be fitted with the specific assembly pin. Whenever I find myself explaining this to them I'm sure they think that it's not really necessary, clearly when the chain snaps it is. And to pay not cheap rates to have these service which inevitably involves more than one trip back to the shop kinda smarts a little. Where I live we have both an independent bike shop and Halfords Bike Hut. Has anyone found a good level of service from Halfords mechanics?

but you car mechanic will be charging far more than £50 an hour on occasion will he not? I paid £50 an hour for work on my motorcycle ten years ago.

If you think £50 an hour is way too much why don't you set up a workshop that does work for less - you would make a fortune surely?

If you seriously look at the numbers than while £50 an hour is not cheap it is not totaly our of the ball park.

You want a good mechanic, they want a living wage. Costs to the employer are significantly more than the wages he eh gets. NI, holiday pay, training etc.

Then its billable time - a hour or two a day will be lost in doing estimates, cleaning up, making good difficult problems and so on

Tehn there is the cost of the workshop ,rent, rates, heating

Then the cost of the tools, liability insurance

In the example up there - swapping the brakes....... A good mechaninc will totally set them up from scratch including checking all pistons are free, fluid levels, straightening discs that sort of thing and some allowance has to be made for time spent sorting brakes that have got issues. If the mechanic just swaps thenm then there will be complaints that they don't work properly.

IMO £40 - 50 per hour for mechanicing is not unreasonable especially if you get a fixed price beforehand

However for that sort of money it should be done right with no issues at all.

Where did the chain snap...was it where the LBS had installed the link pin? If it failed at the link pin, it sounds like the LBSs fault for not fitting correctly but anywhere else it could well be a faulty chain.

With regard the headset, the upper and lower cups can look very similar...my Crank Bros headset cups are almost identical and very hard to tell apart.

[i]However their workshop is not really aimed at the likes of STWers - its more for the people who don't want to get their hands dirty[/i]

This is right for lots of LBSs and it's just learning which are the ones that are geared up for jobs other than fixing kiddie/commuter bikes.

I'd have been taking my parts and leaving as soon as they presented me with a headset on the wrong way.

If I either have the tools, or can buy the tools for less than the labour cost, I'd rather DIY just to know it's been done properly. Usually saves time over taking a trip to drop things off then pick up again later too.

£50/hour is bonkers - my motorcycle mechanic doesn't charge that, and he has a unit full of very specialist tools, diagnostic machines, lots of spare parts, etc. They also charge a much lower rate for "simple" jobs - ie. the stuff that you could do at home with some basic tools, chain adjustment, etc.

I must be blessed where I live - 2 "enthusiast/STW" LBS have opened in the last 6 months near me and the knowledge/levels of service are excellent. Plus I already had 2 reasonable shops anyway! Even one of the guys in my local Halfords is pretty competent (although I doubt it's much to do with halfords training and more to do with the fact he actually likes bikes!)

audiophile - Member

Ask to see the idiots mechanics qualification. Think the LBS may be in decline as mine never have what I want in the size I want and tell me I can have it within a week. Why would I bother when I can get it next day on the web?

so your LBS should buy in thousands of pounds worth of stock on the off chance that you might need it? 🙄

Over the last 2 years I've taken to doing most stuff myself after similar frustrations to the OP. Actually very satisfying building a bike up from scratch. Last time my bike was serviced (rear proII bearings and fork service) it cost [i]more[/i] than my last cars service. Which is ridiculous. Plus my car mechanic doesn't charge me £10 for a dirty car.

Recently I popped into a bike shop (not my local, but nearby) to ask to buy a bleed kit - the response was just order it from CRC it will be with you quicker and be cheaper! I actually appreciate the honesty and will probably try them out for a bigger job which I can't do myself.

TJ _ I've run my own business in the past so am well aware of [b]all[/b] the running costs. Running an LBS or 'service centre' is not something you would do if your primary objective was to get rich and I suspect even the very good owners do no more than make a reasonable living. There just isn't the market.

The fact is that the OP's LBS has now lost a customer which = no income or potential profit in the future on parts [b]OR[/b] fitting/servicing, all over a bodged job.

Palmer77 - if I had to tell the LBS that I wanted the specific Shimano pin fitted (which comes with the chain) I definitely wouldn't be using them again. Why don't you use as split pin anyway, much easier 😉

I fully expect many, many bike shops to go out of business in the future. I'm in two minds about this.

I never use bike shops. I buy my parts online and fit them myself, I buy the tools I need and read up on how to use them. This has worked really well for me and I have some reasonable skills now and I've never screwed anything up really, I just take my time and do things methodically.

But.

Bike shops can be wonderful places. It's fantastic to be able to see and pick up a part or some clothes and have a chat about the options. They can be great communal places. Unfortunately, the prices, the choice, reliability and speed are not competitive in this internet age, and that is why I and many don't use them anymore.

There was an article in the Guardian on Friday titled: "Sick of bike-shop sexists? The Cycle Show can help you..."

I think most bike shops provide a service but its a service I and many others don't need. A bicycle is one of the few remaining, easily user servicable and repairable modes of transport out there and long may this continue.

£50 an hour for bike spannering? Thats a lot of money. Yes I appreciate all the overheads but its still a lot.

my brother wanted a new seatpost, saw it online [and in stock] but paid the extra few quid to the newly opened bike shop near by. took ages to come in and was more expensive. he could of had it allmost next-day if he went online, which he will be doing in the future. shame realy, but, in the current economic climit if you can have your shiny bits cheaper and quicker most people will shop online. plus theres so many places online with guides and videos on how to fix your bike why pay for it?

I wouldn't mind if they even did what they said they were going to do. Ordered some spare parts over two weeks ago from one, "they will be here at the weekend" - errr no.... "we'll chase them up".... and no information feedback at all.

Seems they cannot be arsed to do anything other than sell new bikes, and cannot do basic customer service.

I am sure there are brilliant LBSs, but with 3 local ones I have felt that they think they are doing me a favour by taking my money. Whereas with even minor purchases from Merlin, Moonglu, Bikedock, Wiggle and even CRC (not Rutland or Bonthrone) I have had brilliant service and communication.

nbt, was really trying to make the point that if I can get it next day, why can't the shop? We can all have net access if we want it.

Last time I went to the LBS was to talk shit and drink beer. And order a new pump.

but you car mechanic will be charging far more than £50

mobile mechanic's here charge about 25 quid .I assume you used a garage to pay 50 quid

Check if they're Cytech trained. While it's no guarantee of a successful repair, you at least then know that any problem with the bike post-repair was a genuine mistake or oversight, not because the mechanic didn't know what he was doing.

IMO £40 - 50 per hour for mechanicing is not unreasonable

It ****ing is! Forty to fifty pounds an hour??? For mechaniking a bloody bicycle???

Break it down; the mechanic gets what, £8 an hour or something (if they're lucky), the shop needs to cover it's overheads etc. £25-30 absolute tops. Anything more is taking the piss. Forty to fifty pounds??? If I got quoted that, I'd laugh in their face.

Then poo on their counter, for free.

The cost of servicing has gone up a lot in bike shops over the last few years. Maybe due to shops losing trade to online retailers, and needing to recoup some of the losses, but I'm sorry, sorting bikes out is basic mechanics; it's nowhere near getting a car engine sorted for example.

Just another example of cycling becoming a rip-off activity. I blame STW.

I don't know what the break even for a bike workshop is, but when I was in business (not bike) I needed to be bringing in roughly 4x the labour charge to breakeven. Workshops take up a lot of room and if you are in a retail area, that's very expensive - much more per sq.ft than your garage.

Bear in mind the mechanic rarely brings in 40 hours of billable hours a week. More like 30 if you're lucky.

My gut feeling is £50/hr is ballpark. I haven't noticed any bike shop owners cruising around in Bentleys recently.

Edit: "sorting bikes is basic mechanics..." true. Most people can bolt stuff on their bikes. The difference is most people don't have the skills to tune their bikes properly. It's skills you pay for.

In any trade there will be good and bad service providers, I've had hundreds of bike frames come in with paper work from all sorts of companies. I tend to just ignore it and do the same checks I would do on any used frame.

To be honest the name of the shop counts for nothing and a cytech qualification isn't a gaurantee of quality of work.

My advice is simple, if there are a few of you that go riding, you can all chip in for some tools and books on the subject, Zinn and the art of mountain bike maintenance and park tools big blue book of bicycle repair are good for quick referencing or for having to hand when you don't want to go back and forth to the computer / workshop.

There are lots of cheaper alternatives for most tools. The cyclus range of tools is very good in terms of it's headset press £29.99 and other tools.

Me and my friends or associates are lucky in that I have a great selection of tools in my workshop. Everything from a silent air compressor to all the BB facing and tapping tools by park. If they need something fixed they just have to come over and it gets sorted while we have a laugh.

Would I use a bike shop, only if I didn't have any other option. That said if you live in the Edinburgh and Lothians area and are a bit hard up just now. I'm sure I could set aside some time to help a few people out.

The difference is most people don't have the skills to tune their bikes properly. It's skills you pay for.

Which is exactly what is lacking in most shops. That and the realisation of customer needs, the majority of who would struggle to get their heads round paying £50+ per hour or even a 'job cost' unless the work in question is explained in a way which makes the customer appreciate what they are actually getting for their money.

I'll give a recent example of good customer service:

Charlie (Bikemonger) was able to help me with a problem on a rear hub which involved a bit of head scratching to-ing and fro-ing of sprockets/lockrings on which he can't have made any money. I also got advice, based on his direct experience, re chains and bars. As a result of that, I waited over a month until he had the bars I wanted in stock when I could have bought them cheaper and had them straight away from other sources. The additional money I would have wasted buying the wrong chain easily paid for the extra I spent on the bars. That is simple business - I'm happy, he's happy and that one experience will ensure I go back to him for future requirements.

Sideways Tim does exactly the same thing IME.

The difference is that good shops have the knowledge [b]AND[/b] the 'nous' to maintain their customer base as they realise they can never compete with the big online retailers purely on price.

Pity both the above are so bloody far away from Durham 🙁

My local shop is ace.

On the subject, how come it seems any backstreet mechanic of motorised vehicles can start a job in the morning, find out they need a part they don't have, get it ordered and in their hands that afternoon for fitting before getting the vehicle back the customer? Worst case seems to be next day. As a member of the public, I can go to a local motor factor who can get anything I need just as quickly, assuming they don't have it in stock already.

So why is it when I've needed a bicycle part I get the "we can order it in for you, but it'll take a week" BS? Is this laziness/cost-based - rolling together orders to save on shipping? Is it poor distribution channels - Wiggle and CRC may have huge warehouses of stock, but the trade suppliers don't? Any other reason?

I guess one mitigation for the labour rates in cycle shops relative to motor mechanics is that they're having to set up a workshop in prime retail space, not a cheap little unit on a trading estate somewhere.

Bear in mind the mechanic rarely brings in 40 hours of billable hours a week. More like 30 if you're lucky.

Plus the profit on the new parts you sell that the mechanic fits.

Simon - turnover? he can go to the motor factors that stock all the standard parts.

If your bike is deore and standard the shop will have 'em in stock - if its high end - has to come from the distributorship. There is no equivalent of a motor factors for bike bits

Plus most items for cars are pretty high ticket as opposed to "normal" bike bits.

God in this climate, i pity anyone thinking of starting a new bike shop any time soon.... 🙄 lol

For me the point is that I had a reasonable expectation for the shop to be able to do what is in essence fairly simple tasks with the time and right tools. Now what actually happened is that on two occasions examples of work carried out have been proved to be faulty. I want a local bike shop that I can use and have confidence in, but it's no surprise that in this economic climate more and more people are taking the middlemen out of the equation and ordering the parts on-line and doing the work themselves. This in itself is no bad thing, being able to carry our work on your bike is important. For me, I don't have either the tools or confidence to do some tasks like the bottom bracket, crankest or headset. Some of these parts are expensive and for me to do a dodgy job and ruin the part would be pretty depressing. But given that, the end result is the same and I'm £125.00 worse off!

Regarding the chain. It was a Shimano XT HG93. I had one of these on the old frame and it had a split link which was easier. I bought a new crankset and cassette and wanted to put a new chain on to avoid premature wear on the drive chain. The chain was given to the bike shop in the original packaging. Looking at the chain an where it split it looks like it was joined with a normal link pin and not the specific link pin. I say this because the link has expanded and the link is stiff. I also know the chain was shortened.

There is no excuse for crap workmanship. Accidents happen to anyone and things go wrong but the shop should be able to get the basics right

google and youtube are responsible for the demise if there is one. quite why anyone would pay someone to do something as basic as change a headset is beyond me anyway. the money ive saved by doing it myself has given me a garage full of park tool stuff,or bike hut equivalent. lacing wheels is the only job i'd give to a qualified technician

bit of a cheek buying all the gear elsewhere and getting the shop to fit it for ya, dontcha think? maybe he would have taken more time over the work if he hadn't felt used and cheated out of a sale?

Don't you think the £125.00 is enough? He quoted me for the work specified, I accepted. The work was not done properly. I'm assuming you think this is because he felt disgruntled through the lack of opportunity to mark up the parts?

these shops and their overheads, eh! how dare they try and stay in business! it's not them marking up; it's the online stores discounting 🙂

RRP is still RRP...

Mrk mkill made a good point, how much did you save on getting the parts off the net?
Most good LBS would fit for free or do a very good deal on fitting parts you get from them.
But then if your paying for a service it should be done right.

As for LBS getting stock in it, it's a lot more involed than most people think, Some places have a min order and we talking more than a £100 or so. Theirs P&P charge,(but I think LBS should take a bit of a hit on P&P) even making sure the suppler has it in stock in the right size etc, Also most places ask LBS to order stock in mths before hand, so they can keep their stock down aswell and if a size/model sales really, the suppler be sold out and they might not restock (norm end or year) or you have to wait mths to get it.
This is where the "bigger" online stores with lots more space can order more stock in more sizes etc.

My local bike shop is thriving. They place a high value on selling the right stuff and delivering the best service. It's a family shop, it's a fun shop, it's a lovely shop. The good ones WILL survive.

Just out of interest Captain, how are they on prices?

Very good indeed. They price match, as many are driven to, and they will always reward loyal customers!

I think some people have not read the OP - where it is clear that these muppets were either incompetent, or decided out of spite to fit the stuff badly because they hadn't sold it.

I feel very grateful in that I have a [i]fantastic[/i] LBS in [url= http://www.philsbikecompanyltd.com ][b]Phils[/b][/url] in Ipswich. Phil is great, very knowledgeable, friendly and always takes the time to chat.

internet aint going away. and there will always be an online shop willing to sell stuff silly cheap. in my mind it really depends on your lbs. if the guys there are good and the mechanics too it makes sense to keep them in business. if everyone buys online and the lbs becomes a thing of the past it would be a real shame. good shops are a hub to meet and go ride. i have met so many good guys to ride with because of my lbs. and if you keep going back they really do take care of you.

I think it's fairly safe to say they didn't fit it wrong out of spite. Like I said originally I want to use LBS. As far as how much I saved on the RRP by buying online it wasn't a great deal:

Shimano XT Chainset M770: RRP £159.99 CRC Price £127.99 20% Discount
Shimano XT Cassette 9 Speed M770: RRP £59.99 CRC Price £43.99 27% Discount
DMR V8 Grease Port: RRP £27.99 CRC Price £24.99 11% Discount
Dr Sludge Self Sealing Inner Tube: RRP £5.99 CRC Price £4.99 17% Discount
Dr Sludge Self Sealing Inner Tube: RRP £5.99 CRC Price £4.99 17% Discount
Easton EA70 Monkeybars 2008: RRP £56.99 CRC Price £28.00 Discount 51%
Shimano HG93 Chain 9 Speed: RRP £29.99 CRC Price 16.99 Discount 43%
Hope Headset: RRP £70.00 CRC Price £60.99 Discount 13%

So aside from the handlebars which are two years old, and the chain which is a high stock item the discount is only what I would expect to be able to negotiate given the total item sale.

Fundamentally the reason I am complaining is not because of the cost of the labour, merely the lack of competence in the LBS, and for this reason I am unlikely to use it again.

Had a poor experience today with a not so local bike shop. Took my new Nicolai Helius frame to a dealer about 30 miles away to get a new CK headset and a BB as they specialise in Nicolai and I thought I could discuss my build and buy a few bits that they might recommend.

I was already spending about £150 with them and wanted to buy a £300 Stans Arch wheelset but instead of friendly service all I got was an arsey rude attitude because I'd not bought the frame from them.

So so stupid. I'll get my wheels from elsewhere. The mate I was with and myself now think they're ignorant idiots and won't spend a penny more with them.

If he'd been a) friendly and b) knew how to sell he could have had £500+ worth of business off me today and a happy customer. Instead he got £150 and someone who left feeling poorly dealt with and will not recommend them to anyone (even though the actual service provided was excellent in terms of price and fitting while I waited). What a shame.

To be fair to the lbs in question, I contacted them to let them know how I felt and they sent a well reasoned reply and were genuinely surprised they'd given that impression. They've redeemed themselves in my eyes.

Well today I spoke with Trisports in Letchworth as I had taken the bike to get the chain issue sorted. Wholely different to the origonal shop, friendly, informative and reasonable. I will use them again 🙂

A bit off topic but in reply to some of the above 💡

I am the worlds worst customer, i want everything at a reasonable price and i want it yesterday, sometimes thats just too much to ask from a shop that doesent keep massive stock but there are ways & means !

In response to customer service i found out a long time ago that young lads who work in any LBS i have EVER been to do not make the best salesmen ! especially when they would rather be out riding and especially when they cant find the part that says there is 3 in stock and the phones ringing AND then some bloke emerges from the changing rooms clad in lycra smuggling a budgie asking for a size smaller who said young lad was serving 5 mins before you walked in and and and !

At that point i wander off pretending to look at helmets or t-shirts.

In response to the ill fitted parts well theres no excuse there.