[Closed] That there Trillion Prime in Fresh Goods Friday....

[img] [/img]

Gopping frame from a brand with a completely offputting backstory (billionaire fancies making a few bikes). Give me a Sick Bike Co Gnarcissist over this any day of the week.

http://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/london-bike-show-2017-trillion-prime/

I'd want better quality welding on any £1350 frame I bought!

Gopping frame from a brand with a completely offputting backstory

right, because Merida are the teeniest of shed-based bicycling manufacture, and Santa Cruz is one bloke with welding torch...

right, because Merida are the teeniest of shed-based bicycling manufacture, and Santa Cruz is one bloke with welding torch...

You might disagree, but I think Rob Roskopp has made a bit more of a contribution to the mountain biking world than the company responsible for this:

[img] [/img]

Cracking, probably literally.

Gopping frame from a brand with a completely offputting backstory (billionaire fancies making a few bikes). Give me a Sick Bike Co Gnarcissist over this any day of the week.

Mehhh, son of steel company owner who likes bike decides makes steel bikes, hardly the scandal of the century is it? Get over yourself, it's a bike.

Although quite what they intend to do with the brand is beyond me. If it's marketing for their steel tubing business* then why do they have such eye watering price tags, especially when it's not even that niche anymore, PP, Last, Nordest are all making big & slack 29ers. £1350? It's a bike!

*but is uses Reynolds?

Damn! I thought at first that was the price for the whole bike!

I did as well. Have you checked out the prices for a build though- charging pretty much full retail whack for components. £953 for a pair of Pikes!

Mehhh, son of steel company owner who likes bike decides makes steel bikes, hardly the scandal of the century is it? Get over yourself, it's a bike.

Fill yer boots if you want, I'm just saying why I wouldn't buy one. Well, that and because it's ugly and looks badly made.

Not a bad looking frame, but that welding is terrible.

It was commented on for the spy shots and they responded about it being a prototype etc but it's not got any better. For that sort of money, the welding needs to be absolutely perfect.

It's not attractive and I can't see how anyone thought the cut out bridge thing was a good plan!! Paint job seems a bit too close to the Shan stuff too.

And for that reason, Meh.

[quote=mindmap3 ]It was commented on for the spy shots and they responded about it being a prototype etc

Well that's bollocks anyway - surely you get a proto made by somebody skilled at welding if you're trying to flog expensive steel bikes. If they're planning on getting somebody better to do the production models then why not employ him earlier?

That welding is so bad it looks like I might have done it!

OVERVIEW
Frame Colour (required): Coral (+£1349.99)
Frame Size (required): Large/X-Large
Headset: Hope Headset with Top Cap (+£76.99)
Bottom Bracket: Shimano BB-MT800 (+£34.99)
Forks: Rock Shox Yari RC 160mm Travel 110 Boost (+£647)
Wheels: Mavic Crossmax Pro 27.5 Pair 6Bolt Intl (with Mavic Pulse Pro 2.25 tyres & Tubeless Kit) (+£820)
Groupset: Shimano XT M8000 11 Speed Cassette 11-46 (+£420)
Brakes: Shimano XT with Rotors (+£245)
Stem: Joystick Builder 35mm length and Clamp (+£79.99)
Bars: Joystick Builder (+£49.99)
Grips: ODI Ruffian Lock On Kit (+£26.99)
Seatpost (dropper): KS Lev Integra 31.6 (+£360)
Saddle: Fabric Scoop Radius Elite (+£44.99)
[b]TOTAL: £4,155.93[/b]

Thats a bit spendy for a hardtail.

Thats a bit spendy for a hardtail.

There has got to be an element of stupidity tax in there. Might sell to Apple Mac owners then... 🙂

It does look like full RRP for every part there. Ludicrous.

i thought their website wasn't working right when i saw the price - ridiculous

I really can't work out where/how they've arrived at a price of £1350!
A Production Privee Shan GT frame is £600ish, a Curtis AM7 is £1150, even a Shand Bahookie frame is 'only' £1295.
It's not custom built, and it has what appears to be pretty ropy welding.
Overpriced vanity project methinks!

They could have at least taken the warning sticker off the maxle for the photo shoot.

Prototype is no excuse for poor welding. If anything it should be better as it's a proof of concept and needs some extra detail.

I'll stick to my Stanton for now, their quality is leagues ahead for less that 1/2 the price...

Not the best welding for the money. For that price I would want some pretty neat welds.
[img] [/img]
Right click and view image for a better look.

There's an arse for every seat, but that's a lot of money for 'unique'.

It's a funny old game this isn't it?

We've got Calibre knocking out decent, fun, usable FS bikes for £1k (V2 might be a bit better than some of the V1s).

YT and Canyon knocking out super high end carbon bikes for the sorts of prices you'd have to pay for just a frame from brands with cooler brands

And into battle wades a £4K steel hardtail with ropey welds.

I'll stick to my Stanton for now, their quality is leagues ahead for less that 1/2 the price...

Made in the Far East from Reynolds tubing by people who can actually weld!

The shonky welding doesn't seem to be limited to that one frame/bike.

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

This is what lovely TIG welding [i]should[/i] look like:

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

They are claiming the one Singletrack have for testing is also a prototype.

Does this mean you can't actually buy one just now then? Because if you can lets see photos of a production version then.

What's with the net curtain looking bits?

It must seem as if I'm being a bit down on them, but reading this from ST....

Just to clarify; the Trillion Prime we have for testing is a prototype.

The good news is that the Trillion guys are listening to your feedback and have several changes they’re working on with newer prototype frames. We’ll have more news coming for you soon about production models and those changes, so stay tuned!

Makes me wonder if they've jumped the gun a bit in releasing it.

1) The welding. Why have lots of close up shots in your website of frames that look like they've been welded by an amateur/ hobbyist. Get it done properly!

2) The pricing. I'd expect to pay that sort of money for a full custom frame. Yes, it may be British built, but it's not an established name, so putting a premium price on it is expecting a bit much. I'd think about £900-1000 would be more what I'd expect. And TBH that's still more than I'd probably be prepared to pay for an off the shelf steel frame.

3) The component costs. Full RRP? really? We know they'll get a pretty hefty discount, and most of the components could be bought a lot cheaper online with little effort.

But then I'm probably not the target audience. I'm just not quite sure who is!

But then I'm probably not the target audience. I'm just not quite sure who is!

Let me put it like this - the vast majority of their sales will be the fixie frame (only £650 for 525 tubing 😯 )

Regardless of the welds, why do the chainstays join the top tube rather than the seat tube?

The dropper post routing between the down tube and the seat tube looks horrendous.

160mm forks on a hardtail, can't believe companies are still doing that. If you're spending over a grand on a steel hardtail, surely you want to ride a bike that makes the most of all the positives of steel. 160mm forks and 2.8inch tyres for ploughing through rocks and roots; may aswell make it from pig iron.

Yes, it may be British built, but it's not an established name

complete shit....just because you havent heard of them ...youd be surprised who is behind some pretty cool stuff that you never heard off but they would beat the pants off established names

Well it's quite evidently not "complete shit" because whether or not anybody has heard of them seems fairly irrelevant concerning a company who's products all appear to still be prototypes. If there's somebody who knows what they're doing behind them then they need to come out and say it if they want to be known as anything other than a new company with no reputation (though in that case I'd be looking at weld quality of anything else they'd been involved with). You really can't expect to charge premium - in fact well above market rate - prices as a new company with no reputation, even if your prototypes have good welding!

Well it's quite evidently not "complete shit" because whether or not anybody has heard of them seems fairly irrelevant concerning a company who's products all appear to still be prototypes. If there's somebody who knows what they're doing behind them then they need to come out and say it if they want to be known as anything other than a new company with no reputation (though in that case I'd be looking at weld quality of anything else they'd been involved with). You really can't expect to charge premium - in fact well above market rate - prices as a new company with no reputation, even if your prototypes have good welding!

Iike i said forum opinion complete shit....go and make something ...get some facts about the people behind it

come back when you have a clue

complete shit....just because you havent heard of them ...youd be surprised who is behind some pretty cool stuff that you never heard off but they would beat the pants off established names

Maybe I didn't make my point well enough, in fact it might be that 'established name' is not quite what I meant.
What I meant is that there are plenty of great frame builders/companies who aren't household names, I.e. Curtis. These makers focus on making great products that push the technology and designs.
These guys seem to be far more about being a trendy 'lifestyle' brand, rather than getting a well finished product out there.

*edit*

Iike i said forum opinion complete shit....go and make something ...get some facts about the people behind it

come back when you have a clue

Touched a nerve have we? My opinion is my opinion. I make lots of things, some quite well actually. You need to take a chill pill.

[quote=mickmcd ]Iike i said forum opinion complete shit....go and make something ...get some facts about the people behind it
come back when you have a clue

You're still talking bollocks, and I have plenty of clue thanks. Not sure of the relevance of whether or not I've made anything, and if there's some relevance of the people behind it (which makes up for charging super premium price for shit welding) then either they should mention it - or maybe if you think it's important you should rather than just throwing around vague hints. I'm not sure why it's up to me to do research to counter the obvious - though as implied in my previous post I'm not sure I'd be terrible impressed anyway given what you can see with your own eyes.

Touched a nerve have we?

far from it its common round here for folks to just slate shit, they know nothing about other than the press release ...ive said it before dead easy to slag someones elses efforts off on the internet...

very rare they would say it to the owners face or go to the company and say i slagged your welding off and your bike and pricing can you explain to me

same with the other [s]clown[/s]voice that joined in incensed someone might not agree that its shite because the welding on a prototype might look ropy but would probably pass a test

I don't know a boy about it but surely you can't think that welding is Ok?

It's a good looking bike ruined by that awful attempt at welding. Mass produced frames are better so this needs to be perfect. A Curtis looks like a proper high end product.

[quote=mickmcd ]same with the other clownvoice that joined in incensed someone might not agree that its shite because the welding on a prototype might look ropy but would probably pass a test

You can get bikes which pass a test for a few hundred. Just pop into your local Halfords.

If you want to charge premium price you really ought to have a premium product - and that goes double for the prototype which should be at least as good as a production model aesthetically (if you're marketing a premium product, presumably based mostly on aesthetics, because there's certainly no functional reason for such premium pricing).

far from it its common round here for folks to just slate shit, they know nothing about other than the press release ...ive said it before dead easy to slag someones elses efforts off on the internet...

very rare they would say it to the owners face or go to the company and say i slagged your welding off and your bike and pricing can you explain to me

same with the other clownvoice that joined in incensed someone might not agree that its shite because the welding on a prototype might look ropy but would probably pass a test

I'd happily say this to the owners face - that welding looks shite. Yes it would probably pass tests, but if you're selling a bike at a premium then you should make it look like a premium product.

Based on reading your posts in the past, I know that you're involved in bike/frame manufacturing. Is this from your fair hands? Is that why you seem so personally incensed by our comments?

I actually teach a bit of welding and brazing. I'd be happy with that kind of quality from a student, but It's not what I'd expect from a professional outfit. With bike frames especially, aesthetics plays as much a part as strength. IMO anyway.

[quote=ajantom ]Based on reading your posts in the past, I know that you're involved in bike/frame manufacturing. Is this from your fair hands? Is that why you seem so personally incensed by our comments?

I was kind of assuming that knowing nothing at all about mick or his posting history - there appears to be no other reason to get so personally bothered. Though if that is the case he could just say so - and then justify why his involvement justifies the premium price.

A 2 minute dig reveals this as one of his most recent posts:
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/getting-your-own-custom-design-aluminium-frame-built#post-8534690

though also this one:
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/is-there-a-market-for-e-bike-specific-bike-components
where he appears to be upset about premium pricing on standard products 😆

No it's got nothing to do with me whatsoever

People try hard to put a product out......people slag ot regardless , its boring

Really you teach welding and don't know that would be adequate for its purpose as a prototype id hazard your first post was a dig at something but now someone has pulled you on it .

I do know some of the story behind it I know some of those people have been making far more critical things than a bike frame and would be able to weld both you and me under the table

And your right aracer you can go and buy some shit from Halfords that will pass a test that's all it has to do. It doesn't have to make you feel warm and fuzzy but it says prototype and when you see what some people output as prototypes that's positively sparkling in comparison

Lets see....

"We officially unveiled the production models of the Trillion Prime at the UCI Fort William Downhill World Cup"

Why would Singletrack throw a prototype into a test against production bikes?

Why wouldn't Singletrack mention that the frame was a proto in the article, rather than some time later in the comments?

Why are Trillion taking orders?

Shades of the Edinburgh defence here.

And wildly off target mickomcd, people on here are almost without fail helpful and constructive when asked, just don't take too kindly to weasely antics.

Really you teach welding and don't know that would be adequate for its purpose as a prototype id hazard your first post was a dig at something but now someone has pulled you on it .

I never said it wouldn't be adequate as a prototype. I assumed (naively maybe?) that they'd have sent a finished model to be tested.
No-one has 'pulled me on it' I volunteered the information freely, thinking it might be relevant to the discussion. Obviously you think you just had one over on me 😆

Teaching welding is a very small part of what I do, and I don't claim to be an expert, just someone who can pass on the basics, and hopefully instill an idea of quality and accuracy in making to students.

However, all of my points about the poor aesthetics of the welding, and daft pricing still stand.

Can I just add the you're not coming across very well on this thread, and it might be time to consider shutting up.

If it's a (rough) prototype why would you then splash it all across the internet?First impressions and all that.

People try hard to put a product out......people slag ot regardless , its boring

know some of those people have been making far more critical things than a bike frame and would be able to weld both you and me under the table

just don't take too kindly to weasely antics.

are you accusing them of weasely antics or referring to something else?

And again aracer so far off base , ever just think their pricing might be based on what it costs to run a place making pretty much anything these days

a lot of the people who know me know i dont make anything for the bike industry anymore because it pays shite and always has

[quote=mickmcd ]People try hard to put a product out......people slag ot regardless

People slag it off when it's a bit rubbish. The pricing being rather optimistic also means the expectations of the quality are high.

Really you teach welding and don't know that would be adequate for its purpose as a prototype

"adequate for purpose" rather depends what the purpose is. If the prototype is simply for in house testing then that's totally accurate. However when one of the purposes of the prototype appears to be hawking it around for evaluation - and when the pricing is super premium - then no, it's not "adequate for purpose".

I do know some of the story behind it I know some of those people have been making far more critical things than a bike frame and would be able to weld both you and me under the table

Well WTF don't they demonstrate that then?

And your right aracer you can go and buy some shit from Halfords that will pass a test that's all it has to do. It doesn't have to make you feel warm and fuzzy

That prototype isn't making me feel all warm and fuzzy either.

Obviously you think you just one over on me

no because honestly its irrelevant , I once got told if youv'e nothing nice to say ,.....further to this you seem to assume like many others that coming across on a thread well has any bearing on wtf has that got to do with anything ,

you can add what you like to the thread as obviously you saw fit to start it with the fact that for your money they had better up their game which would be fair enough ...you weren't starting a thread to have a dig

[quote=mickmcd ]ever just think their pricing might be based on what it costs to run a place making pretty much anything these days

Given other people appear to be able to do a much better job for less, no. Unless they're terribly inefficient. I suspect their pricing is set at what they think they can persuade [s]some mugs[/s] people to pay (as usual) and that they've looked at the super premium end of the market and assumed that's what they are.

This is starting to remind me of the failed pop star in League Of Gentlemen. "It's a shit business really".

First things I thought when I saw the Trillion on the front page were "how much!?" and "the welding on that seatstay bridge looks shit". Pull your head our of your arse Mick, you're making yourself look stupid.

Well WTF don't they demonstrate that then?

All i have seen on here lately is the poor ****ers at Sick getting slated

hebtro co getting slated

now trillion getting slated by people

not a single positive, well done lads for having a go or nuttin

just typical miserable STW criticism and really you ,me ,us could be doing more to support uk making if its shite tell em support them and push them in the right direction,

but its not your job is it and easier to snipe

[quote=mickmcd ]maybe they think they dont have to

A surprising lack of marketing nous in that case. No I'm not a marketing professional, but I've spent time working in marketing and I know people very high up in marketing for the outdoor industry (since we appear to be throwing around credentials here).

[quote=mickmcd ]just typical miserable STW criticism and really you ,me ,us could be doing more to support uk making if its shite tell em support them and push them in the right direction

You are Andrea Loathsome and I claim my £5

It's a shit business really

no one said that ....its more people don't want to pay what something costs to make , however whenever anyone mentions id buy that if it were UK made Yada Yada Yada you think FFS chances of people putting their hand in their pocket ...

and for some reason the bike industrtry seems to think of it as more expensive than anyone else

No I'm not a marketing professional,

No neither am i ,

You are Andrea Loathsome and I claim my £5

yeah yeah

No neither am i

Yes, we can tell.

I don't think it's that people on here are overly negative or down on stuff. However, there is a healthy scepticism of silly marketing guff and the spin that certain parts of the industry seem to feel the need to put on their products.

All i have seen on here lately is the poor **** at Sick getting slated

hebtro co getting slated

now trillion getting slated by people

That Sick bike looks horrid to me. The lack of info made is poor, the marketing comes across as a bad joke. Just because it's made in the U.K doesn't mean I have to like it.

The welding on the Trillion is undeniably bad. It's a nice looking bike but the quality does not justify the price. It's been mentioned here and elsewhere, they're supposedly aware of it but in these latest pics show they've not done owt about it. That's a poor show.

I've seen prototypes for the likes of Stanton and they look loads better than this in terms of welds etc.

The HebTroCo thing...well that's just STW at its finest.

not a single positive, well done lads for having a go or nuttin

if its shite tell em support them and push them in the right direction,

Erm...I is confuddled.Which one are we supposed to do?

do what you want

why not be helpful

why not be helpful

why not be helpful

People have been and said the welding isn't good enough yet it's fallen on deaf ears. They've said it since the first pictures.

But apparently it's considered sniping or slating

cmon you know exactly what taking the little snippets of someone else's post is and using them to make your post moar (for the kids) valid

I would have thought that the comment and opinion on a website like this [i]is[/i] helpful to a business launching new products. Especially negative feedback, even if you and the business owners think the opinions are ill informed. Those ill informed people are still likely to be the sort of people whom the owners might expect or hope to be potential customers. Your berating them is not going to make them suddenly see the light and decide they want to buy one.

Far better to know in advance that at least some people are going to question the finish and pricing and that they may need to review these now, rather than proceed blindly without any feedback or comment on social media and then be surprised when they don't get the sales they were hoping for, for the reasons that are being mentioned on this thread.

I really like the bike. But I have a bit of a soft spot for hardcore hardtails.
However, at that price point quality is everything. Quality product, service and support. I really really hope Trillion do well and get off the ground. A few more years/products and they may well be in a position to compete with the established names.
As that is where the competition is, Shand, Cotic, Stanton etc.
Choice is good.
Best of luck to the guys.
But I have to agree, that welding isn't selling the product.

Dang.
No sniping.No slating.......No quoting 🙁
You're going to say no Memes next are'nt you?Or just no bombing/heavy petting?
You monster.

There are definite positives about the bike.
Nice clean lines, slidey dropouts, good stand over, long TT and slack head angle.

However, as mentioned before the dropper cable routing is odd, the seatube/seat stay junction is a bit fussy, and designwise there doesn't seem to be much of a USP over many other steel hardtails. If you looked at its silhouette it could be any number of bikes. Not a bad thing per se, as the low stand over/brace design works well.

The seatstay to top-tube thing, I guess is for more vertical compliance?

Or just no bombing/heavy petting?

Gosh, your local pool sounds ace, even regular petting is verboten at mine!

The seatstay to top-tube thing, I guess is for more vertical compliance?

You see, if you're going to be makin' a dis, at least be subtle. Good work and certainly better than what I was planning to add, "that seat stay/top tube junction puts me in mind of a GT with a steeply sloped top tube."

About the welding, strong welds don't need to be pretty. I once saw a Ferrari on Top Gear that was so good that it had no carpets. The welding on the floor looked like metallic slugs. My Old Pop, who worked in the oil and gas game, could never understand why the welds on my fancy bike frames hadn't had a file taken to them. Even my de kerf! He wasn't even a welder! Cheeky sod.

😕

As an industry we have entire rule books about keeping prototypes out of the public eye. Disguises, closed facilities, instant dismissal for idiots taking photos and so on.

Then a special run of shiny protos for the press. With proper welds.

While it is an expensive frame, I think it looks pretty cool - welding aside. Full RRP is taking the piddle on the build components as you could save at least a third buying from most of the online retailers.

Worrying thing about the pricing as is (for me) is that if they do employ AN Other to do more aesthetically pleasing welding, will it cost more?

Maybe if they invent a back story and market it as being built in Nottingham, where thousands of bikes used to be built, and now there's only one factory working a three day week making BSOs for Argos. Now Sanjeev is back to make Notts proud again, they've put down the arc electrodes (though not quite yet from what I see) and are ready to save the British bike manufacturing industry.

NotaBikeCo hasn't yet been registered as a company name, I only give it time.

At least that could be interpreted as Nottinghamshire Bike Co when you outgrow you original factory in Nottingham itself and move to one 25 miles away.

As an industry we have entire rule books about keeping prototypes out of the public eye.

I thought it was de-rigeur now to leave your proto in the back of a van with the doors open at tescos while you get a coffee so that you can tell the world it was stolen and get loads of easy press coverage without pesky things like questions or testing?

The seatstay to top-tube thing, I guess is for more vertical compliance?

You see, if you're going to be makin' a dis, at least be subtle.

Well it was what I thought it might be for. Was hoping someone with the approrpriate knowledge would say yes it would help with vertical compliance, or no, that is just form not function 🙂

benpinnick - Member
As an industry we have entire rule books about keeping prototypes out of the public eye.
I thought it was de-rigeur now to leave your proto in the back of a van with the doors open at tesco[b]s[/b] while you get a coffee so that you can tell the world it was stolen and get loads of easy press coverage without pesky things like questions or testing?

tesco[b]s[/b]? 😯

You are dead to me...

'Hello, designers? Yea, so those gussets you put in - any chance you could fill them with odd, pointy cutouts?... I don't care if it's a terrible idea, I just like my strengthening features to be full of stress raisers...'

Anyone else remember hope's lightning bolt rotors?

why not be helpful

I'd say observing that their welds are ugly, the bike looks inferior and overpriced compared to more established reputable competition in the market, and trying to charge full rrp for parts used to build the bike is questionable are quite helpful observations.

By comparison I recently bought a road frame from Reilly, a small UK company. The welding is gorgeous, I did loads of research and it compared favourably to the competition, and the full build was only £500 more than the frame and fork bundle. The Ultegra groupset would have cost me £500 if I'd shopped around and used discounts online, everything else (including their equally lovely in-house carbon seatpost) was effectively free.

Trillion aren't exactly some garden shed kickstarter project in need of defending either,

Liberty House an international metals and industrial group, It's current turnover is approaching $6.8 billion and it employs over 4,000 people

Be interesting to see a video demonstrating any vertical compliance 😉

And

HORRID WELDING! 😉

I can see that gusset/plate cracking round the seat tube weld.
Nice paint - I had a nosey at Fort William but didn't know the price at the time.

I thought it was de-rigeur now to leave your proto in the back of a van with the doors open at tescos while you get a coffee so that you can tell the world it was stolen and get loads of easy press coverage without pesky things like questions or testing?

[quote=sirromj ]Well it was what I thought it might be for. Was hoping someone with the approrpriate knowledge would say yes it would help with vertical compliance, or no, that is just form not function

Just form not function. HTH

What was that for @ghostlymachine?

Solar powered penis pump.

Quite.

If memory serves, the new XC90.

We only do pneumatic penis pumps here, not enough sun for solar. Allegedly.