I have an idea of my perfect bike, and am 99.99% certain it doesn’t exist on the market.

Just idly curious how you would go about getting it built, I guess you would go down the Kickstarter route a la Singular (?) but who does the manufacturing?

On a similar note, is geometry covered by any sort of intellectual property laws or is it legit to just lift someone else’s geometry? 8)

Why aluminium?

You could pitch it at one of the lower volume brands (e.g. Ragley) to get some feedback/ideas. There might be a really good reason that no-one currently makes what you’re after.

but who does the manufacturing?

As a one off? Or as a production run? The answer will be very different depending on what you mean.

I have no idea of your skillset/knowledge/background but it sounds like you have an idea for the perfect shape of bike you want, but might need someone else to actually do the engineering side of it, ie: work out how best to join all the bits together, make them fit, be strong enough and all the rest of it, there’s a lot more to designing a bike that just the geo.

Just trying to work out if you need someone to design and build a bike for you with custom geo, or if you actually already have CAD models and sound engineering stuff all sorted and just need someone to manufacture it?

If it’s just a custom one off either way then frame builders who work with Alu are few and far between, especially in the UK.

For a given (reasonable) cost I would have assumed aluminium would build lighter than steel.

Also, perhaps irrationally, I believe an aluminium frame with a threaded BB would be slightly easier to keep creak free and quiet over the years, my experience of Carbon fibre frames is mostly positive but still required lots of footering about with assembly paste and carbon friendly grease to keep them quiet (Cannondale…).

I suspect there is a limited demand for what I want as it is basically a light and fast endurance road bike based around the geometry of a Focus Paralane, but with tyre clearance up to 40c, but rim brakes (so probably mini-vs).

Thinking about it, it’s probably a lot of effort to go to just to satisfy the few niche/luddites like me who don’t want discs, could probably just pony up and get Shand to build me something…

Edit: Amedias, see above, the engineering would be all fairly basic, it’s just a particular combination of standard features that nobody seems to do at the moment, so no engineering really required.

Brant Richards’ outfit specialise in that sort of thing, don’t they? Small volume runs of ideas that are submitted to them?

Ah, for some reason I had assumed it was a full suss frame! Road would be easier but there’s actually still a lot required to make a good frame as opposed to just a frame in the right shape.

There is a lot of tech going in on top end alu frames to actually make sure they light, stiff enough, strong enough, comfortable enough etc.

Aluminium for that kind of frame will generally be a bit lighter, but not that much unless you’re getting a properly top end top-tech frame from either a major player (who won’t do custom) or a small niche builder who really knows their stuff. (eg: A mediocre Alu frame isn’t much lighter than a top end steel frame, and on a par if not heavier than top end Ti)

If you wanted to make a go of it I’d start researching for frame builders who work with Alu and will do custom geometry version of their own existing models, as you’ll have a proven ‘base’ frame design to start with but can get the geo and features you like, problem is I can’t recommend such a builder as all the ones I know of work with steel or Ti, you may have to look outside the UK too…

I don’t want to piss on your chips cos projects like this can be amazingly good fun (although often waaaay more expensive than you think), but you really might be better off doing some more research and finding an off the peg frame that is either close enough to what you want already, or accept a couple of compromises like press fit (with bonded adaptor if you must), or to look at another material.

I have an idea of my perfect bike, and am 99.99% certain it doesn’t exist on the market.

Elaborate

Brant does Ti, not sure about Al.

Singular Sam is definitely worth a try. He’s worked with a place (in Czech republic, I think) to produce a couple of track bikes for himself and a magnificent fat tandem for a customer/friend.

Brants setup – Pact – no longer operates as he’s into trousers now.

Why not Ti Ian? There are a few custom Ti outfits around who will do one-off frames.

Why not Ti Ian?

To be honest just cost.

My thought process originally began by thinking that the bike I had in mind would be a good addition to EBC’s Revolution range, but then I had a quick look at their website and it looks like they don’t really have a Revolution range any more.

Nonetheless I was stuck on the idea of a limited run of reasonably priced frames rather than a more expensive one-off. In theory the style of bike I’m describing could be marketed really well as a cheap but very effective equivalent to the more spendy adventure road bikes like the Diverges/Paralanes etc.

However for the practicalities pointed out above I guess I’d just be better waiting a few years till I could afford a one-off.

Elaborate

As a couple of posts above:

Aluminium for cost and practicality but still relatively lightweight

Geometry similar to a Focus Paralane i.e. endurance/sportive but with slightly longer wheelbase for stability and slightly lower BB for extra stack height without adding bar height

Threaded BB for practicality

Rim brakes for cost/weight (negligible, granted) and practicality (topic for a different thread, but I don’t get on with disc brakes on road bikes and know for a fact there are others out there like me! 8) )

Big tyre clearances, I’m loving the 40c Kenda Tendrils on my Charge Plug at the moment, and tend to forget I’m on a 550g 40c tyre even when I’m pushing hard on the road.

Big tyre clearances but no discs probably equals mini-Vs, therefore canti mounts.

No discs = road wheel spacing so you could still fit any rim brake compatible road or CX wheel. This isn’t really a ‘design’ feature, just a preference of mine, I really love the new Shimano wheels with the finger adjustable cup and cone bearings and the traditional Shimano flange spacing which apparently yields a stiffer wheel.

Even just with a 105 groupset hung off it, you could probably build a frame like this up into a reasonably priced, sub 10kg (if not sub 9kg…) super capable fast tourer.

Big tyre clearances but no discs probably equals mini-Vs, therefore canti mounts.

If you want room for guards as well as 40mm+ tyres then it starts getting tight even with mini-Vs, which means you’re then into full size Vs and the STI issue, or compromising your clearance/tyres size.

FWIW, you can get 38mm under a long (57mm) drop dual pivot road brake without guards if it’s built well, but getting the wheel in and out without deflating can be an arse.

It sounds like you’re wanting a light-tourer/Audax bike but in Alu, and with big tyre clearance and threaded BB, but no discs…

Why not Ti Ian?

To be honest just cost.

[/quote]

Nonetheless I was stuck on the idea of a limited run of reasonably priced frames rather than a more expensive one-off

Have you got any rough budget in mind? If it were me I’d be seriously considering Steel or Ti and a UK builder, the weight penalty of steel really isn’t massive and it’s also largely irrelevant, but that’s just my take on it…

The thing is, if it’s a one off most of the cost is going to be in design time, and manufacturing labour, even a single Aluminium custom frame like you’re talking about will probably be as expensive as OTP Ti.

As soon as you start talking about production runs, even small ones it’s a different game, as you’ll have to get a prototype or two and test them pretty extensively before you could consider selling to anyone else (don;t forget paint!), and if the whole point was to get you a frame then the cost of a few prototypes and a small production run of Alu is going to be way in excess of even the most blingly custom Ti one-off, and even if you manage to sell* all the production run at cost you might not break even vs a one-off.

The flip side is that if all your ducks line up, everyone loves them and you can sell them all at a profit, you could accidentally start a new bike brand 😉

* might be hard if other people don’t agree with your choices

I know somebody who runs a successful aluminium road bike company that has their products manufactured in Taiwan . Do not underestimate what is involved in bringing a product to market. The design/prototype/build/delivery process is complex and like a game of snakes and ladders. You also need an agent based out there and to fly out and oversee certain stages of the design/build process.

If you really wanted something in alloy custom built then one of the small builders in Italy may be able to build you something, not going to be cheap though.

As above. A low volume run of aluminium frames will have a unit cost way in excess of a custom Ti frame. If you’re not wanting to set up your own bike brand then the latter is the way to go.

The flip side is that if all your ducks line up, everyone loves them and you can sell them all at a profit, you could accidentally start a new bike brand

Haha, exactly, and all my weird preferences in bikes will be vindicated!

I’ll tell the wife I’m quitting the day job tonight 😀

On a similar note, is geometry covered by any sort of intellectual property laws or is it legit to just lift someone else’s geometry?

Might be easier just to buy one than to build a replica?

I’ll tell the wife I’m quitting the day job tonight 😀

No No No! you must work out the brand name first, no crazy idea can proceed without a name…

I’m trying to steer away from “recommend what you ride” but have you had a look at a VN Amazon. I haven’t compared the geometry and I don’t know what changes have been made since I bought mine but the spec otherwise matches your requirements (I think).

Dropouts are 132.5 so will take disk or non-disk hubs, threaded BB, long chainstays, 40mm tyre clearance….

I can build it for you we currently charge £45 an hour your looking at around a weeks work and a wait time of two months as the queue is quite long now for prototypes behind what we make for others.

Geometry similar to a Focus Paralane i.e. endurance/sportive but with slightly longer wheelbase for stability and slightly lower BB for extra stack height without adding bar height

So, what’s the actual geometry you want? I’m curious whether there really isn’t something out there that can tick the boxes with careful setup (unless like me you’re near or off the end of most geometry sheets).

Also curious about some of the specifics: eg is dropping the BB, rather than adding a headset spacer, actually a big deal?

FWIW, you can get 38mm under a long (57mm) drop dual pivot road brake without guards if it’s built well, but getting the wheel in and out without deflating can be an arse.

I’ve never used deep drop calipers but I’ve used mini Vs and IME they have the same issue with getting the wheel out.

I’ve used mini Vs and IME they have the same issue with getting the wheel out.

I actually find the mini V issue to be worse on most* forks, as the limiting factor to wheel removal is that with the brakes unhooked the back of the pads hits the fork baldes and limits the amount the arms can retract.

With dual pivot calipers the pads are shorter, and mounted somewhat more forwards in most cases that this isn’t normally an issue, the limiting factor becomes how much cable the QR on the caliper can release to allow them to open, if you use brkaes with a QR (Shimano/Tektro etc.) with Campag levers with an additional QR then you get double the slack and getting 35-38mm tyres in and out isn’t much of a problem.

I’ve got a few different road frames with varying BB heights, one is super duper low and consequently has a short headtube and the frame looks tiny even though the fit is fine as the whole bike has effectively been ‘dropped’, another has a higher BB and looks a whole one or two frame sizes bigger but is actually smaller! On the road I don’t really notice the difference, the lower bike feels a tad more stable, the higher one a bit more nimble, but it’s splitting hairs really for general road and Audax, it’s not like they’re being raced in crits with tight corners or anything.

* It really does depend on the fork though, you can do it well or badly, as always…

I’m curious whether there really isn’t something out there that can tick the boxes with careful setup

Me too, I bet there’s something close enough, there normally always is but I can understand the draw of something custom too, otherwise it’s a case of pick your compromise area and deal with it.

How much did your bike cost then, Mister?

ti frame start at $555. Hard to see a custom Al being much cheaper.

So, what’s the actual geometry you want?

Nothing ground breaking really, closer to endurance road bike than touring bike, so for a 56cm a wheelbase slightly over 1000mm, a reach of 385mm and a stack of 585mm.

The Paralane geometry just achieves an extra 5-10mm of stack without spacers or extra headtube, by dropping the BB. I like this as it sounds neat, would be slightly (subjective!) better looking and also for a road bike or gravel bike I don’t really see the disadvantage of a lower BB unless you’re clumsy with your pedals.

Hadn’t realised there was a clearance issue with mini-Vs. In theory I have nothing against cantis, so long as they’re mounted correctly, but even with a fork mounted hanger I still get a bit of squeel out of the Tektros on my CX bike.

The whole thing about aluminium etc. was based on cost, but as has been thoroughly proven above, to get a custom, on-off aluminium frame would be just as expensive as custom, on-off steel or ti.

I had scoured the market for exactly what I was looking for, but of course had excluded the likes of Van Nicholas as I wasn’t in the market for a £1500 frame. However if you include pricier custom builds then there very probably is a bit more choice out there, I’d best just get saving!

£1275 at Fatbirds. Out of curiosity, how much did you think a one-off or low volume aluminium frame would cost?

I didn’t really, I guess the idea that got me thinking was getting a production run done (e.g. by EBC, badged up as their Revolution range) and building them into a £1500 bike with 105, Tektro mini-Vs, low end wheels such as the Fulcrum Racing 7 CXs or similar, all of which seemed eminently achievable compared to other bikes on the market.

For instance EBC briefly produced their Shadow road bike which (from memory) had a very light aluminium frame and decent finishing kit for a super competitive price. This was the business model that I was thinking of, although suspect that wasn’t a custom designed frame, rather an off-the-shelf frame from Taiwan.

That’s what got me wondering how one would go about getting a production run done yourself, hence this thread. However I’ve very quickly been dissuaded of that notion.

Not criticising/objecting to Van Nicholas price, just explaining why I hadn’t previously considered it.

For ref, anything custom, regardless of material normally starts at about £800 (in the UK) as a bare minimum, and then goes upwards from there depending on how awkward your design is and what you want it made from. £1k+ is entirely normal and in the ‘custom but not exotic’ category, once you get into exotic or weird then it’s much much more.

You can get stuff cheaper from overseas (XACD/Watley/Titan etc.), but obviously the relationship may be harder to cultivate and once you add extras, shipping and taxes it’s often only a bit cheaper overall, can be well worth the effort though as you can get some very tidy custom frames for sensible money if you know what you’re doing.

The production run idea might net you a lower per unit cost in the end, but only with a medium/big run, and once you’ve done all the prototyping and testing it’s a different ball game altogether.
The EBC situation you suggested was almost undoubtedly an off the peg option, or a very minor tweak to an off the peg option.

The issue with custom aluminium is that there are very few people doing it and very few people buying it, so it’s not cheap. Whereas the market for custom steel is much larger and China knock out plenty of custom titanium. To be honest, if you’re an average size then aluminium doesn’t seem much of a win. (It works quite well in a road frame for a tall git like me because at very large sizes steel is either very heavy or too flexible.)

I have to say I gave up on all canti-mount brakes with drop bar levers. Straddle-style cantis always squealed, mini Vs were pigs for getting wheels out, and full Vs were either a bodge or meant not having STIs (workable on a singlespeed or with bar end shifters though).

Nothing ground breaking really, closer to endurance road bike than touring bike, so for a 56cm a wheelbase slightly over 1000mm, a reach of 385mm and a stack of 585mm.

I’d bet good money there’s something off the shelf that can be made to fit. You have leeway on those figures to play with stem spacers and stem length and rise to get the bars in exactly the right position, with any discrepancy in the frame’s reach and stack having only a microscopic effect on weight distribution and handling. And since you don’t mention head angle I’m inferring that you’re not fussy about microscopic differences in those 😉

I’ve been round a vaguely similar process before, ie looking for a “light and fast endurance road bike”, something to do big distances on but retain fun handling and feeling responsive to power. Having pondered whether weight, stiffness/feel or geometry contributed most to the racy feel, I ended up realising that (while I was limited on seat angle) I was over-obsessing about the front end geometry: I had bikes with head angles between 72 and 74 degrees and they all felt good enough: it was only below 72 that I started to be underwhelmed. All I needed was to get enough reach without too much stack and then tweak the bars into place.

Are you sure you’re not over-thinking this? (Not saying you are… just, are you sure you can’t meet your requirements by simply focusing on slightly different measurements, eg bar reach rather than just frame reach?)

Aluminium alloy frame in the UK is difficult

years ago I had a bike company and we tried for 2 years to get prototypes and production in the UK, tried dozens of companies without good results.

this was back when there were more companies manufacturing in the UK.

we ended up making the prototypes ourselves (access to engineering workshops with machine shop, Tig welding and heat treating) from locally sourced Alcan HE30 (6082 T-6), fantastic fun and great results

Production was done in Australia, of all places!

This was the business model that I was thinking of, although suspect that wasn’t a custom designed frame, rather an off-the-shelf frame from Taiwan.

Quite likely.

I guess your diskless requirement also has you marketing against the big guys. We know this can be successful for a small niche of riders but maybe retaining the option would increase the number of potential buyers.

I know it’s steel (and probably quite heavy steel..) but have you looked at the Surly Cross-Check? That’ll take big tyres and cantis, I’ve no idea about geometry though…

Are you sure you’re not over-thinking this?

Quite the opposite I think… 8) It was a 15 minute train of thought on the commute this morning, but the obvious (now they’ve been pointed out to me) practicalities of getting a large volume of frames designed and built means it would never be as cheap as I had imagined.

Also the geometry requirement isn’t essential, it would just sit somewhere between a touring bike (had one, lovely bike but never felt like a road bike) and a racing bike (can’t hack full on race position any more).

Anyway – the train of thought has now reached the station, if I want to be this fussy it would be much easier just going custom build Ti or Steel 8)

If you do still want to look though, there are a some very good Audax and endurance road bikes out there that might fulfil most of your requirements without going down the custom route, worth a look around….

more info here

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/uk-frame-builder-who-builds-with-aluminium

there was a custom alu frame at bespoked this year (i think)

also would an all city space horse or a rivendell a. homer hilsen (both steel though) be suitable? genesis datum carbon?

or an alu cross bike.

Duratec in Czech Republic do custom aluminium (I think). Ask for a quote and let us know!

I guess Nicolai might also do something but it won’t be cheap.

I like that mickmcd popped up and said “I can do that” and nobody seems to have noticed 😆

Oh I think folk noticed – and noticed how much it would cost (not that I think he’s over-charging). It’s not the budget option Ian thought it might be.

Oh I think folk noticed – and noticed how much it would cost

And that was the point a prototype isn’t cheap a dropout alone is going to cost 120 quid by the time your done the 7020 aluminium we use is imported from Germany, if we build in 6000 series the oven cost alone is a 300quid minimum order wether we are sticking 1 frame in or 20 frames

One thing I learned a while ago is to do nothing for anyone purely for the exposure it’s the fastest way to go bust ( latest lesson has been not to do any thing for anyone that then doesn’t pay you) but the expense is up front as can be imagined for the imaginary uber frame first dropout is 120 (and theres 2)quid that’s programming fixturing and proofing people wonder why the next one is a fiver and want the first one for that cost sadly just because your making a thousand the up front costs can’t be removed

The other thing is you can never reveal the prices, you can compete with Taiwan to a point I do work where prototyping in Taiwan is such a lengthy process we can turn it round in weeks rather than months but your going to be paying 1500 quid for that speed edge , otherwise i might as well just machine parts for industry x or y that will pay me the figure im asking to cover the overheads, and you can find that work relatively easily

Seriously though I can’t buy the material for what you can make a fully finished rigid bike out of one of the Asia factories even in production there’s a thing the Asia industry is good at and that’s aluminium

Duratec in Czech Republic do custom aluminium (I think)

It was Duratec at Bespoked

Is this guy still building one-offs?

I went looking for much the same as the OP is. I came to the conclusion that early model 29ers designed for short travel forks were the answer, and heaps more tyre clearance. They generally have steep enough head angles – think Scandal, TD-1.

I like that mickmcd popped up and said “I can do that” and nobody seems to have noticed

I noticed too, added to my mental list of ‘people who will/can do Alu’ but as Scotroutes said, pretty much just hammered the point home on expense which we were saying anyway.

I think the normal ‘guy on the trail’ really has very little concept of how much bespoke work actually costs, especially at the prototyping stage, and even more so if you need someone to do the design/maths/engineering for you as well, they see Alu frames on £300 bikes and think it cant be that difficult to do, but the economics and logistics of large scale overseas vs local and bespoke are just completely incomparable.

but the economics and logistics of large scale overseas vs local and bespoke are just completely incomparable.

not just bikes is it. you can buy a suit in the highstreet for £99, online for £35! I paid £35 to have my last suit adjusted by a tailor. They couldn’t even come close to make you one.