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Its bloody tedious to see people unable to use the front brake properly telling me that what I do every ride is impossible 🙂
I am not afraid of locking the front brake. I guess its coming from a motorcycle background where practising braking is a part of core skills but in the MTB world it seems not to be.
I have taken newbs to mountainbiking who are experienced and fast motorcyclists and they instinctively use the front brake and are smooth and controlled on descents. I have ridden with MTBers who are much faster / better than me overall but when its steep and slidy are fishtailing down with a locked rear brake and on one occasion I remember them being surprised that not only could I control my speed on that same descent but that I could stop on it.
It would be fascinating to ride with some of you and for you to try what hols suggested
I'm comfortable locking my front brake up, but a locked front wheel is a shit place to be if you want any form of control or if you actually require your suspension to work.
I'd quite happily ride with you, just cos I've convinced myself that you're a decent bloke that just comes across as an arse on here.
I'm with TJ, having to stop on the steep stuff on Stage 2 at the Naughty Northumbrian last year was a front brake affair, back was skidding instantly but I could easily stop, on damp clay and roots, with proper front use.
For tech stuff you are in far more control letting both wheels turn and using your front to control speed. For the faster stuff it's more a case of how much front grip you want.
Have ridden motorcycles for around 40 years now, the skills/techniques on/off road are only vaguely similar and do not directly transfer apart from in black/white very basic theory world and take experience , sensitivity and training to learn.
Many motorcyclists rarely use the back brake, many cyclists rarely use the front brake, both would benefit from using both brakes, some will never learn or have the opportunity to do so, they will still get by OK, until encountering extreme circumstances where the learning gets bumpy.
Modulating two independently controlled but effect interlinked brakes on undulating and constantly varying surfaces whilst freewheeling can be tricky!
No beer - the point was that if you are scared of locking the front then you do not use it to its full capability.
IIRC yo live in a nice bit north of me - post covid it would be fun to meet up!
I've got a jump bike that only has one brake. Guess which end it's on.
TJ.
You do talk some tripe.
Riding a motorbike on the road has almost no reflection on riding the type of trails where MTB brakes struggle.
I've ridden MC Enduros at world champs and even that bares little in common with stuff steep/long enough to give an MTB brake trouble.
Again the point was simple - its what I have observed that motorcyclists are more confident using the front brake on MTBs and my supposition was that this is because motorcyclists have developed the "feel" for front tyre grip
Also that the road motorcyclists I know practicing hard braking is a part of developing skills but MTBers practicing braking appears not to be something they do.
maybe its just the riders I know and its not generally applicable but among the MTBers I have ridden with few who have not been motorcyclists seem able to use the front brake to its full extent.
I’ve got a jump bike that only has one brake. Guess which end it’s on.
Ride it down the Alps a lot, do you?
Its just showing how little many of you understand the dynamics of braking
You have self proclaimed that you think dropper posts are useless fripperies and that you prefer a triple chainring.
May I humbly suggest you probably don't ride the sort of trails that will cook a rear brake.
Some of the steep stuff in the Alps you're almost constantly on the back brake or you'll be off the edge of the berms and in serious trouble.
I’m with TJ, having to stop on the steep stuff on Stage 2 at the Naughty Northumbrian last year was a front brake affair, back was skidding instantly but I could easily stop, on damp clay and roots, with proper front use.
I wasn't aware we had to consider actually stopping, in the middle of a stage. That's a bit of a moot point, of course you need the front/both.
pictonroad - not long steeps like the alps but short steeps ( 1/4 - 1/2 a mile which is plenty to overheat a brake) yes. the point still stands tho - you can use the front to moderate speed better than the rear or in conjunction with the rear so you do not have to risk overheating by only using the one brake.
If a distinctly mediocre rider like me does not need to continually drag the rear because I can use the front to moderate speed without losing control then surely better riders than me can as well?
Oh - and I prefer 2x 😉
May I humbly suggest you probably don’t ride the sort of trails that will cook a rear brake.
Some of the steep stuff in the Alps you’re almost constantly on the back brake or you’ll be off the edge of the berms and in serious trouble.
This exactly, there are times where you need to control your speed where a handful of front will make you crash.
TJ, suggest you look up what a very steep trail is actually like before trolling. A good example would be a GoPro of Champéry maybe. Easier to ride that than walk it.
Also, at speed the front wheel will be cycling through 150mm+ of travel several times a second AND trying to dig into loose material to turn. I'd not recommend hard front braking at that moment.
Some of these trails are so steep and rough I don't think people who haven't ridden them can really conceive of it. I couldn't til I saw them!
TJ, suggest you look up what a very steep trail is actually like
He doesn't need to he'll just keep posting the same thing over and over again until you give up caring.
Some things never change.🤷
No need to go to Champery, 30 odd miles down the road to the Golfie, get down the likes of nae spleen, or one of the other steep tracks, let us know how you get on cornering with the front wheel locked up. 🙂
TJ trying to tell top riders that they're braking wrong is like a man explaining menstruation to women.
He'd be fine on the steep Valleys trails.
His experience of riding an MC on public roads has taught him everything there is to know about riding MTB's down steep stuff.😉
I’ve got a jump bike that only has one brake. Guess which end it’s on.
Ride it down the Alps a lot, do you?
Now that you mention it it's been down the Super Mozine. I let the tyres down to about 40psi for that one. Just to be on the safe side.
I grew up in an era where a long fast descent in the rain meant most brakes wouldn't actually stop you from speed so you had to develop good avoidance skills or limit your speed.
Hence I believe that brakes should do the job they're intended for, to stop you, regardless of your numpty status and not need hero level skills.
A brake that fades is unacceptable on a car, and should be unacceptable on a bike.
It seems like this is getting a bit twisted up tbh with confusion between normal braking and dragging and the effects the two have. But the two are really very different, and tbf you'll very rarely combine the two and make a heat issue (because people who're good enough to ride stuff that's demanding on brakes, are usually good at braking, and usually have good brakes)
Yes there are times when you definitely want to do a lot of work with the rear. But that's fine, and your brakes won't mind, unless they suck. Brakes heat up in use, and cool down when not in use, that's just how it works- if you're applying even a small amount of brake, then the brake is heating up.
Dragging causes heat issues much more than normal braking, not because you're increasing the amount of heat added, but because you're continually exceeding the amount of heat that's leaving.
If you're having heat issues with normal braking, then a hardware change can help but it doesn't overcome a dragging issue, it raises the headroom but the basic issue of more heat in than out remains. More power won't usually stop someone from dragging either- or rather, dragging isn't usually about not having enough power, it's about not being willing to let off the brakes, it's a software thing.
Hardware does make a difference, but with dragging it's more in the nature of an overflowing sink- fitting a bigger sink won't fix the problem as long as there's more water going in than out, it just means it'll take longer. Whereas if the problem is that you're putting in too much water all at once, a bigger sink helps.
Anyway- that went on a bit, but that's why talking about how to brake on steeps kind of misses the point. If your brakes are decent, then it's not braking that's important- it's not-braking that's important. Even on really full on trails, there's almost always times not to brake.
(fwiw... Not much in the UK should have the capacity to overwhelm any decent mtb brake, it's just hard to find the combination of steepness and duration. Even if the sink is filling up you'll usually stop before it floods. But even descending an identical trail but for a minute longer, or a same duration trail that's a few degrees steeper, could be all the difference it takes if your brakes are marginal. Which is why so many people think their brakes are good and well maintained, til they go somewhere different and discover that actually they're not, they've just never really been tested.)
dragging isn’t usually about not having enough power, it’s about not being willing to let off the brakes.
Exactly.
This thread is ace, it’s either a jolly troll or the ramblings of someone who’s suffering from a delusional belief, I’d like to see tj attempt to apply his theory at a downhill track like AE, I’d give him 200 yards before he hits the ground.
I have a bit of sympathy for TJ, physics facts about weight transference under braking, and braking force necessarily being limited by weight through the wheel is quite right. And he's got a lot a lot of experience of his own riding and watching others' that reinforces his knowledge and belief about what's happening. I think he's probably right about some people not getting the balance right between front and rear, overusing the rear when
However, in classic TJ style (sorry tj) he's not very open to considering other viewpoints and different scenarios of conditions and use that clash with ideas he's already put in the "right" and "wrong" boxes in his head.
I went looking for telemetry on braking bias and found this. I'd struggle to say he's doing it wrong, or that he's out of control, or that he's slow. EWS racer on the Rotorua National Downhill run, 90% braking with the rear. https://www.pinkbike.com/news/video-tracking-an-ews-racers-braking-and-suspension-usage.html
Not saying there are other riders who would be just as fast using more front brake, or that there are different tracks in different conditions that would require a different bias. Both of those are obviously true. I'd be very surprised if using 75% front rather than 90% rear would be a quicker way down the hill, though.
From nedrapier's link:
Out of all the braking Sam did while riding, 90% of his braking was with the rear brake. This was the first time I saw someone so fast riding heavily with the rear brake, but Sam mentioned it was probably due to all the deep rut and steep sections—he was just trying to maintain speed.
So this is notable for being very unusual.The rider confirmed it and explained why.
Lap after lap Sam was able to use what he had learned about his previous braking habits to make small tweaks as he went on. He cut his braking time down by 15 seconds in the end, and had shaved over 10 seconds off of his lap time! Overall modulation was down, and the average time of each braking event was 1.7 seconds--all marked improvement. Sam also took 20 points off his FlowScore, which is a braking efficiency metric we have been dialling in.
By braking less, he went faster. This is the opposite of dragging your brake all the way down the hill.
Here's a more representative example:
https://www.pinkbike.com/u/mtb-phd/blog/braking-down-mont-sainte-annes-notorious-la-beatrice.html
First run:
This run was not good! Had it been wet, I don't think it would have gone too well! I think the trail was a little more tricky since a post-winter line had yet to be burned in, but nevertheless it was an ugly run! There were too many points where I lightly tapped the rear brake just to check-up, and I never left off of them enough. Fortunately, the trail was relatively short--otherwise my brakes would have been at risk of overheating!
I knew that for Run 2 I need to focus more on my braking points to carry speed through the bumpy sections a bit better and thus be more smooth, so I adjusted tact for the second run:
Second run:
You can see that I spent much less time braking, had lower brake energy, higher brake power, and was able to achieve a better Flow Score. To attain these measures, I focused on braking more sharply, and looked for more places to let off the brakes. I had much less feathering on Run 2 as well. So by taking a refined approach to braking, I was able to save around 3 seconds. These few seconds are like pennies in the bank for any XC racer, and no doubt come in handy as the race goes on... and on and on!
With those narrow tyres and loose conditions though, I still had trouble finding grip and ended up trail braking too much. For runs 3-5, I was able to ride a lot smoother by braking before the turns, but to get a really good trail braking score I would be better off with grippy tyres. Unfortunately, for XC speed, sometimes riders need to neglect a bit of control and run something lighter and less knobby!
As we all watch in awe over the next week as the best riders in the world send it down this track, bear in mind how tricky it actually is. I know I'm impressed at the number of riders heaving themselves down this on non- #enduro equipment, and I think you should be too!
So, he improved by dragging the brakes less and braking later and harder, using the front brake much more than the rear brake. That's stock advice.
By braking less, he went faster. This is the opposite of dragging your brake all the way down the hill.
No it isn't.
Mont Saint Anne isn't steep though, so you don't need to control your speed as much, with hard, sporadic braking events to slow down for a corner instead. That article about braking in NZ the track is much steeper. Braking is probably still >75% rear after improving braking technique.
It's almost like different trails and conditions have different braking requirements. Who knew?
People with no actual experience of the kinds of tracks ridden by top riders telling them how to ride better and that they're doing it wrong is just laughable. Do you hear yourselves?
I looked around for more telemetry runs, didn't find that one. Did you find any others? It'd be really good to see multiple riders on the same track, and same riders on multiple tracks.
The Dunning-Krugger effect in action.
Hols2 - your response here:
dragging isn’t usually about not having enough power, it’s about not being willing to let off the brakes.
Exactly.
'usually' what is usually? how is it usually like this, how do you know what people 'usually' do?
I’d love a go with that telemetry equipment to find out what I actually do as opposed to what I think I do.
Also I’d like to make it clear that if I ever run into the back of TJ it will obviously be because he wasn’t going fast enough NOT because I couldn’t stop😀
pictonroad – not long steeps like the alps but short steeps ( 1/4 – 1/2 a mile which is plenty to overheat a brake) yes.
Mate if you haven't been to the Alps you have NO idea what it's like. The sheer amount of continuous steepness is not like anything you find in the UK (at least not that I've found). I haven't been to riding hotspots but I've ridden in other places in the Alps (and other big mountains). What applies in the UK does not apply there. I would be surprised if it's possible to actually boil brake fluid in the UK, but not at all surprised in the Alps.
And it's not even the same everywhere in the Alps as there are normal XC ish trails with normal descending in as well as huge steep long things.
People with no actual experience of the kinds of tracks ridden by top riders telling them how to ride better and that they’re doing it wrong is just laughable.
What kicked this off was a silly article that recommended running smaller rotors on the front than the rear:
https://enduro-mtb.com/en/rotor-size-myth/
That article wasn't aimed at pro riders trying to shave a few tenths of a second off a kamikaze run, it was aimed at everyday riders (well, at people who believe any silly thing they read on the internet, I guess, but let's pretend). Advising average riders that they should put a smaller rotor on the front is really, really bad advice. That's the brake that you rely on to stop in an emergency. Having that overheat is much more serious than having the back fail.
Suggest you watch the EWS series on red bull, Sam Hill and Richie Rude skidding round corners and using the rear brake to balance the bike.
That's not brake dragging. Brake dragging is lightly riding the brake all the way down the hill without releasing it. Applying it to skid through a corner and then releasing it is not the same thing. Nobody's saying you should never use the rear brake, just that your front brake should be the main one you use for controlling speed (not the only one, but the main one).
I would be surprised if it’s possible to actually boil brake fluid in the UK
I'm sure Geex would set you straight on that if he was still around.
I am not sure I have ever boiled a brake in the UK. I certainly did when I first started going to the Alps.
If the bike is upright (ish) Then even on really steep terrain the front brake is the most powerful brake on the bike. As you lean over you are obviously sharing that traction with cornering so need to reduce the brake pressure.
I had a front brake hose burst at Cmwcarn DH trail one day no way I could get the bike slowed under control without the front brake, I ended up in the salad 🙂
But thing is to ride well you need both brakes, don't understand how anyone can ride just using one or the other. There are two for a reason 🙂
I’m sure Geex would set you straight on that if he was still around.
Tbf, Geex is a good rider, I'd be inclined to take his opinions a lot more serious than some of the Last of the summer wine types on this thread! 🙂
Geex is the biggest skidder I've ever seen. He's the only person I know that can throw up dust from his tyres when it's muddy. Not sure if he's actually aware that he has a front brake tbh
I’m with TJ, having to stop on the steep stuff on Stage 2 at the Naughty Northumbrian last year was a front brake affair, back was skidding instantly but I could easily stop, on damp clay and roots, with proper front use.
I wasn’t aware we had to consider actually stopping
That's not what I was getting at, I was pointing out that for all everyone seems to think that as soon as it gets techy your front brake doesn't work I was still managing it on S2. Plenty of folk fishtailing about the place nearly making a mess of themselves proving me right too.
I'm trying to stick to the actual point of the thread rather than getting into a slagging match; that is you should be using your front brake for control far more than you probably think and "compensating" for dragging with larger rear rotors (to the point of being bigger than the front) is just very bad practice and only serves to reinforce bad habits. We all start somewhere but even in the alps this very much 'back of the pack also ran' never managed to boil his brakes with a 180 rear. You don't need bigger rotors, just better skills, if you're pushing your hardware that hard you're riding beyond your limit.
As ever, the topic has drifted off course, I canny be ****ed any more tbh.
I came across a thread earlier whilst searching, was 9 years old, was a wee reminder of how this place used to be before it became an echo chamber.
you should be using your front brake for control far more than you probably think and “compensating” for dragging with larger rear rotors (to the point of being bigger than the front) is just very bad practice and only serves to reinforce bad habits.
Yes.
Geex is the biggest skidder I’ve ever seen. He’s the only person I know that can throw up dust from his tyres when it’s muddy. Not sure if he’s actually aware that he has a front brake tbh
My lad was the same until I made him start paying for his own tyres... front brake seems to be for switchback endo's only... last time at FOD he deathgripped the whole of Endo... and didn't crash till the very end (but only due to his mates Dad being on the trail)
This is easily put to the test.
Yep it's pretty easy to test and no special equipment needed. All anyone needs to do is get a top 10 in DH or Enduro at international level then they can lecture on "correct technique".
Except (and willing to take advice from Tracey or anyone else with the same race record) your likely to find out that every pro has different technique.... just like some prefer Shimano vs SRAM vs Dirtisimo etc. or if you're Danny H and it's raining you just don't use them (not convinced he uses them much anyway)... I noticed several of the Atherton team are not using Dirtisimo on their bikes either or weren't last time I was at Dyfi.
your likely to find out that every pro has different technique
My money would be on them all running a front brake and a back brake, using both of them, and using a lot more front brake than back when they want to stop in a hurry. If you know different, please enlighten us.