[Closed] Tech stuff - do people REALLY know...

Having your shocks tuned can make the bike feel nicer. So why shouldn't we be doing it, if we have the money? It's not neccessarily all about speed, is it? I don't know why people have this obession with telling you you aren't fast. Who cares? We don't ride for speed (mostly) we ride for enjoyment, and if your kit's set up better, you tend to enjoy the ride more. How many motorcyclists actually race their crotch rockets?

I haven't had shocks tuned by the way, but I did have TFT service and upgrade my forks once. Changed my 2004 SPV minutes to work the same way that 2005 ones did ie with progressive SPV valve opening. Cheaper than buying new forks, and it made them better. Faster? No idea, never raced the bike. But it felt nicer.

Surprise, surprise marketing men stretch the truth! But how many of us actually ride well enough to be able to prove or disprove their claims? Like with most advertising I treat the claims made by the bike companies with a degree of caution. But would you really want to go back to elastomer forks, canti brakes and URT suspension??

I don't think marketing stretches the truth, just makes it as appealing as possible... 😉

Yup, some folk think they know alot and talk utter poop!

Hmmm and that's coming from a lawyer.... 😉

But how many of us actually ride well enough to be able to prove or disprove their claims?

I do. I could tell the difference between a Horst and a single pivot, for sure. And I could definitely tell between a 'Freeride lite' machine and a 'trail' one. What're you getting at?

Just a couple of things mccett...

Can you point out how a race track is in any way the same as an Alpine descent..

Secondly, at what point on your motorcycle do you have to set up the suspension for peddle input?

I'd say that mountain bike suspension is probably a long way in advance of motorbike suspension in terms of technology, just because of the demands placed upon it. As such, it makes it a lot harder to tune properly, and to service.

Same in other sports. I play golf and there's new technology every year but I can summarise it as follows...

"If you can't hit a ball it doesn't matter what club/technology you use. If you can hit a ball it doesn't matter what club/technology you use."

To go faster on a bike press harder on the pedals, to go even faster learn how to ride a bike.

Roger

single pivot is still
the best set up for most applications

Not entirely sure that's true. Regardless of complication you can definitely feel the difference between two FS frames with different suspension technologies. Granted some of that will be down to geometry etc but the ride and handling is notably different from a single piv to a 4 bar design, and that's just to a general user. My old single piv is great for going down but a nightmare going up, pedal feedback kills its climbing which doesnt happen with my NRS etc etc. I'd say any system can be set up to work well in any occasion, but there's no saying "single piv is best for most". As for servicing - well personally I should service things more often, but my rear hasnt seen a service in 2 years and my fronts havent seen a service in ooooohhhh maybe 5. I'll strip them tonight I think, thanks for reminding me!

Speaking as a luddite who only got a full sus 20 months ago, things have definitely moved on ....I know the push pedals harder arguement rings true on the climbs but downhill give me discs and 5" travel over my old steel hardtail please. I went thru rigid forks, elastomers, early Rc36's etc and am glad to be on newer stuff TBH

MTB tech isn't as good as motorbike tech I feel....look how Honda with little backround or experience could produce an ace DH bike....imagine where the sport would be at if they had got in with Shimano back in the day!...we'd all be riding 15lb 8" travel beasts that climbed like a hardtail I'm sure!

Exactly RR, that's why my bike toolbox still has a hammer in it.

whytetrash ,

i think you've shot yourself in the foot there, honda would like you to think they pushed the boundaries, and you only have marketing and hearsay to go on.

in reality they stuck a derrelieur in a box as they couldnt build anything lighter or more efficient.

the suspension had a lockout lever, bear in mind how bad a DH bike would have to pedal to make a 40lb hardtail the prefered choice.

the custom make brakes lasted a year before they picked some off the shelf formula ones.

and none of the parts have yet to show up on production bikes.

remember, if it 26.8% better than last year, its 26.8% less likely to be verifiable by any valid and relavent test.

Its much easier to believe that all technical stuff is hype isn't it? A bit less challenging...

I'm still amazed the electronic damping control didn't stay on, rather than complex valving etc. I suspect it is due to needing to integrate readings from a few areas of the bike which couldnt be prescribed. I know they had issues with vibration and muck, but thats really just requiring concentration on packaging.

To go faster on a bike press harder on the pedals, to go even faster learn how to ride a bike.

Since WHEN is it all about going as fast as possible?

Since WHEN is it all about going as fast as possible?

Sorry, racing background kicking in. Perhaps it should say "personal skills" now have the greatest effect on your riding experience.

Of course there is a load of marketing bollocks surrounding bikes, especially suspension. It's hardly surprising though - it's expensive and most people don't understand it, so how else will you sell more than your competitors?

By the way, for those debating the difference between mountain bike/motorbike/car suspension above, mountain bikes are one of, if not the most, difficult suspension applications anywhere. This is for several reasons:
Poor sprung to unsprung mass ratio.
Very wide variety of impact sizes.
Wide variety of rider weights to cater for.
Sprung mass constantly changes position (+ varying chain forces for rear).
Must be very lightweight but also durable.

For these reasons, mountain bike suspension is a)difficult to design, b) difficult to tune.

Perhaps it should say "personal skills" now have the greatest effect on your riding experience.

Quite possibly. But almost anyone can appreciate a really nice bike if they're sat on one. You'd have to be a determined luddite to argue that bikes have got no better over the last 15 years. And as for riding enjoyment - well I'd have to say that's also improved. 15 years ago I used to pick my way down the Gap at 15mph on a fully rigid bike with cantis, and a 130mm stem, clinging on for dear life as I shoved my arse over the back on the steep section at the top.

Now the Gap's too boring so I take my bike to say Cwmcarn and let rip on the DH section or the XC, moving at three times the speed I used to. And it's much more exhilerating. The bike's moved on to allow me to do this, but my expectations have moved on too. I do different rides to what I used to.

I think that if you have the skills, you get to appreciate different bikes. After all, you wouldn't be doing extreme freeride, dirt jumps, North Shore or any of that stuff on a fully rigid mid 90s bike, would you? It might be possible, sure, but the fact is that mountain biking as a sport has developed massively and diversely, and I think that's largely due to technological development - including innovation by both top riders and designers.

to say honda have little experience of of building off road singletrack vehicles is a bit nieve (?)
they have won countless championships in various disciplines over the
years
thing is they tried sucsessfully to compete at top level
they will have learned (and patented) loads
remember the ill fated nr500 they built ,waste of time ?
i very much doubt it
same with the d/h stuff ,think fuel cell lightweight motorcycles in various
guises

and designing suspension for mtbs can be as complicated as you want to make it , the point is that a well designed single pivot (dale/orange)with a good shock is still a faster bike than i am a rider

the point is that a well designed single pivot (dale/orange)with a good shock is still a faster bike than i am a rider

Bit of a nonsense point. Bikes don't have a maximum speed. A good bike will make the average rider faster on a given trail - a suspension one markedly so if it's a rocky trail - but as previously stated, speed just isn't the point. So why does it come up all the time?

beacuse bikes like most sporting equipment are derrived form models developed for competition, even ones like the trance and propet that would never be raced normaly are still reliant on technology developed for the companies other bikes.

Personaly i like speed, and i suspect most people here do, otherwise you'd be walking round the trail centers 🙂

But speed isn't the ultimate aim, is it? It's riding enjoyment - which involves speed, but varying amounts of it. The feel of the ride is more important.

I don't think an Orange 5 has any racing in its pedigree. Their "race" bikes are hardtails, just like Specialized etc.

Forums are full of people who have strong opinions on subjects they actually have very little knowledge of. That is what makes so many threads so much fun to read.
I think to many readers take opinions as fact.

Ajr, I thought this was a reasonable and respectful discussion of opinions, as one might have in a pub between friends... I am not pushing my opinion as fact, just expressing it 🙂

What don't I have knowledge of?

Molgrips, I would not want to hurt your feelings, but I had not read any of your threads when I posted. I answered the original question with what is my opinion.

Fair enough, no offence taken 🙂

With regards to the question of whether most people get the most out of their kit - it occurs to me that a great many don't have it set up properly....

I don't think an Orange 5 has any racing in its pedigree. Their "race" bikes are hardtails, just like Specialized etc.

Eeeh? What about all the 4X and DH prototypes? I visited the factory during the Global era and there was a LOT of development going on there from those team bikes, a lot of which made it onto production bikes.

Far more money's made from selling trail bikes to weekenders than is made racing tho.

Tricky one- it's true that there is often appears to be very little difference between this year's model and last and improvements tend to be incremental. OTOH, if you look at where mountain bikes were 15 years ago then there's obviously more going on than marketing boys polishing turds. But it's still more like a curve than a series of steps, and if you jumped on a bike at any point on that curve you'd likely be hard pushed to tell the difference from one just upstream or downstream.
Just take it all with a pinch of salt and buy a new bike when you need to, not when you're told it's been made obsolete. And like someone said earlier, just pick one from any of the big boys and they'll all be (technologically speaking) the same.

In my uninformed opinion that is.

I wonder what would happen if this thread and [url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/rivendell-big-dummy-review#post-130281 ]THIS ONE[/url] ever met?

Something terrible or we might just go out and ride for a change 🙂

SSP

There are big innovations tho. Like the "invention" of riser bars (yes I knwo they were around before), or Marz Bombers, or the first platform shocks, the first disc brakes etc. Each one of those really pushed the whole thing forward. I'd say some years had much more innovation than others.

not when you're told it's been made obsolete

Is that not blindingly obvious? In any case, no-one's ever told me that about any of my bikes!

Agreed that some years will have seen bigger steps than others.

Is that not blindingly obvious? In any case, no-one's ever told me that about any of my bikes!

Well, obviously I don't mean people marching up to you in the car park and declaring your bike's past it 🙂
But a quick trawl of magazines or forums suggests (to me anyway) that it's not blindingly obvious. Granted there's always the desire for newer shiny bits but a lot of people seem to be get through a lot of high-spec bikes in a short space of time, far too quickly to really see much difference I'd have thought.

how many of us buy a new bike every year ?
just a question
well me i bought 2 in the last year

think its like most stuff it has to be facelifted relaunched updated
whatever to keep us buying
remember when cars never changed for years then all the sudden new model every 2 years ,not better just different
same with bikes (a bit) my 10 yr old dale m900 still rides as well as any
newer similar bike, might be a bit cheaper these days (or not) for comparable spec
genuine improvements are few but tend to be revolutionary ,SIS suspension vee brakes 8 speed/9speed discs big travel etc these tend to be engineer
driven initially then the ad men get in
at the end of the day we just get on and go ooh thats better and spend the cash

mikee
how many of us buy a new bike every year ?

Only when the technology/price ratio levels out 😉

For instance: XTR filters down to XT and LX... that takes a couple of years and you get essentially the same kit!

I did design/build myself a 'future proof' bike:
[img] [/img]

Flamejob, I reckon that'll look well dated in 5 years time 🙂

lot of people seem to be get through a lot of high-spec bikes in a short space of time, far too quickly to really see much difference I'd have thought

Yes they do, although I think that's just because they like buying new shiny stuff rather than because they think it'll make them a better rider. Do people buy loads of new clothes because they think they'll get more sex? Do people buy new cars because they think they'll get to work faster?

And, ironically, old-skool fixie/steel brazed/curly bared/brooks saddled etc etc bikes are being bought as shiny and new, cos they're in fashion!

You all must've seen the film with Dudley Moor about the advertising exec who sees the light - "Jaguars (the car that is) for men who like handjobs off beautiful women"

😆 😆

Well, this thread goes to prove that people really do spout a load of old bollocks... 😉

Yes they do, although I think that's just because they like buying new shiny stuff rather than because they think it'll make them a better rider. Do people buy loads of new clothes because they think they'll get more sex? Do people buy new cars because they think they'll get to work faster?

I already acknowledged the shiny-new-stuff factor, but it looks to me that in bikes/cars/clothes whatever lots of stuff gets bought after advertisers/magazine reviewers have suggested that it's better than the (often pretty much equivalent) stuff people have already. So it's not obvious to me that people are immune to being told their current stuff is no longer good enough.

But it's still more like a curve than a series of steps, and if you jumped on a bike at any point on that curve you'd likely be hard pushed to tell the difference from one just upstream or downstream.

stuff gets bought after advertisers/magazine reviewers have suggested that it's better

Hmm, well we're onto the psychology of advertising, which is somewhat complex I think. For example, why would they make Marmite adverts that tell you it might make you puke in a policeman's hat? What they do is subliminally plant an association in your brain between their product and something positive. That might be a desirable image of shredding trails, or a sexy woman (it's always women), or something funny or unusual (hence the Marmite ad).

So the bike ads aren't actually telling you the new is better or faster than the old UNLESS it's an actual technological change like say the Gary Fisher G2 geometry ads; rather, they're making you want something but you don't know why. Lots of people on here say stuff like 'I don't know why but I really want this'. It's not necessarily specific advertising, but a culture that's been fostered.

I agree advertising works, and we are all manipulated to an extent by it (even the Rivindell bloke) in all walks of life. But I don't think it's fair to claim that most people really think that the latest bit of kit will make them faster or a better rider. After all, I'd say most people on here don't even know their personal best time for their local trail centre 🙂 So how would you know if you were faster?

flamejob that looks coolas **** how much to bulid me a frame
provided it weighs 4lb or less that is

ta... I didn't actually make it, some nice chinaman did from this:
[img] [/img]

As I said before; I have a LOT of respect for everyone who makes and sells bike bits, no matter how shonky. It's really quite hard to get things right. Maybe I'm just a numpty.

Guess that answers the OP. No I have no idea 🙂

Do people buy new cars because they think they'll get to work faster?

Never a truer word said.

I personally have changed my bike, on average, every two years: Why? Mainly due to changing riding styles. I started off on xc hardtails, went to an xc full-suss, and then on to more "all-mountain" type bikes. The changes have been direct responses to changes in my riding outlook and therefore requirements, NOT due to reviews in magazines. I have also ensured that each bike is markedly different to the previous one: One thing I dont understand is people moving from say, a 5-inch travel Spesh, to a 5-inch travel Commencal. Surely the bikes are too similar to make any marked difference to your riding.

Out of all the bikes I have owned, the one I could probably had done without was my Titus Motolite. Don't get me wrong, I loved it, but it wasn't vastly different to the Spesh Enduro (2004) it replaced. In fact, the bike I have now, Banshee/Mythic Rune, is the bike I wish I had bought instead of the Titus, although it wasn't out then. I didn't really realise this until I went to Whistler last year and rode a bike with a slacker head angle: It really woke me up to why I was finding somethings difficult on my Titus (I am happy to confess that this was mainly mental, but it is what I prefer now).

In the end, it is your experience that should drive what you buy, not what other people tell you. If you follow what you have learned yourself, then you can sift through all the crap to find out what you really helps you.