Stickler is designed to be ridden fast, and test your pumping/ berm riding skills and to get as much trail as possible into the small space they are allowed to build on.
Was designed to make the most out of crap all for Gorrick races (I believe) with berms on the flat chucked in. Has to be pedalled fast to make them work rather than testing your skills and providing berms to flow at speed. Tedious. And used to be a trap for pools of water.
Disagree deadkenny.
I don't particularly enjoy Stickler as I'm too old and unfit to give it 10/10 to get the most from it.
However it takes a very fit and very competent rider to post a top time round Stickler. It's not 'Enduro' or 'Gnar' (obviously - it's flat!!) just a different type of off road ability. To be faster round Stickler I'd get more benefit from being a 'better rider' than from improving my fitness
Ta11pau1.
Thing is about this sport in my opinion is that you get more out of it as you get fitter. Places like Bedge and Swinley are way more fun when you’re going fast and then can get even more exhillarating if you get really fast. Neither trail centre is much cop done at a bimble but both can be a hoot done flat out.
There’s rideable natural stuff near you by the way, but winter will always involve a fair bit of mud.
As always, if you find Stickler boring, try riding it at ten tenths.
As said before, nope, still boring.
Swinley are way more fun when you’re going fast and then can get even more exhillarating if you get really fast.
Nope, they really arn't. But we're all different.
I have ridden at Swinley pre and post the ginger and given the limitations of the terrain and ownership still think its a good venue for the area.
The issue with the blue trails is their erosion and the lack of maintenance on the bits between features. When 1st opened there was a lot more flow, now the cobbles make it less rewarding esp on a hardtail (however much effort/speed you put in).
I think its a shame that lots of effort went into the over ambitious free ride area to cater for a minority, rather than more basic maintenance and improvements that would have benefited the majority...
Ta11pau1.
Thing is about this sport in my opinion is that you get more out of it as you get fitter. Places like Bedge and Swinley are way more fun when you’re going fast and then can get even more exhillarating if you get really fast. Neither trail centre is much cop done at a bimble but both can be a hoot done flat out.
Agreed, but I still think trail centres should be fun even if you're not super fit and can do the 12 miles at a constant 9/10ths.
There’s rideable natural stuff near you by the way, but winter will always involve a fair bit of mud.
Yep, only problem as you say is mud. There's some local singletrack within a few miles of me but it turns into a flinty muddy mess over winter. Same for the (excellent) trails at Friston forest.
The issue with the blue trails is their erosion and the lack of maintenance on the bits between features. When 1st opened there was a lot more flow, now the cobbles make it less rewarding esp on a hardtail (however much effort/speed you put in).
I think its a shame that lots of effort went into the over ambitious free ride area to cater for a minority, rather than more basic maintenance and improvements that would have benefited the majority…
This is one of my main gripes, it's great that they've rebuilt babymaker, but I doubt 80% of riders visiting will use that bit of trail. The blue bits, especially at the start, are in a dire condition, if I was a family with little ones and it was my first time there to ride the blue trail, I wouldn't be impressed with the state of the trail. Multiple times my rear wheel got kicked sideways due to a big exposed cobble, on what's meant to be a nice smooth, flat trail. If that's a kid riding the trail they're likely to crash, and why? Poor trail maintenance.
Right, today's job: check how much of my drivetrain/brakes I have left after the ginge has worn them away! 😁
Yep, only problem as you say is mud. There’s some local singletrack within a few miles of me but it turns into a flinty muddy mess over winter. Same for the (excellent) trails at Friston forest.
Consdiering it's rained every day for 3 weeks, i'm not exactly sure what Swinley can do to resolve the mud issue ?
Poor trail maintenance.
There's only so much a team of volunteers can do - they obviously spend most of their time working on stuff they want to ride, plus the clubhouse was trashed by forestry work earlier in the year, so took priority.
Ginge is a constant problem, but goes with the territory!
Also, I saw there's an Xmas ride out with a BBQ on the 16th.
Consdiering it’s rained every day for 3 weeks, i’m not exactly sure what Swinley can do to resolve the mud issue ?
In essence, the popularity/accessibility of the venue coupled to the need to make it more weatherproof is what led to the ginge in the first place. The old trails never used to become properly muddy due to the soil (and sandy base) - not claggy clay that stopped your wheels and ripped your mechs off, it just spattered and made you look like you had uncontrollable dysentry and surreptitiously ate your drivetrain at the same time.
But as more rode them, and in particular the less experienced who maybe weren't as conscious of eg: erosion issues and so rode round rather than through the puddles, the trails got wider, and wider, until it was no longer feasible to 'repair' what was there using the local club's volunteer labour and if it was to remain sustainable as a venue, an armoured trail* was inevitable.
* with the proviso it had to use aggregate from the onsite resource.
And the rest, as they say......
"Multiple times my rear wheel got kicked sideways due to a big exposed cobble, on what’s meant to be a nice smooth, flat trail."
I know what you mean about the surface being annoying but this is mountain biking, not BMX!
Consdiering it’s rained every day for 3 weeks, i’m not exactly sure what Swinley can do to resolve the mud issue ?
I was talking about the other trails in Kent near me which turn into a proper mud fest which is why I tend to avoid them during winter - Friston forest is brilliant, much better than Swinley and Bedgebury combined, but they are the 2 nearest trail centres which can be ridden year round pretty much regardless of how much it's rained.
Swinley doesn't have 'mud' but then I'm not sure the alternative is better! I've just washed my bike and I think I could make a beach out of the sand that was on it! 😁
“Multiple times my rear wheel got kicked sideways due to a big exposed cobble, on what’s meant to be a nice smooth, flat trail.”
I know what you mean about the surface being annoying but this is mountain biking, not BMX!
Well, obviously for anyone on here or anyone with a tiny bit of riding time it's not a problem, but I'm thinking of all trail users - it's a blue trail which means it's going to get used by everyone from 3/4 year olds to 80 year olds (because honestly, who would ride the 'green' trail?!) which means it <i>should</i> be in decent condition to allow it to be ridable by all ages.
It all goes back again to say the blue trail is lacking in upkeep - and seeing as it's the first bit of trail probably 75% of users will see when they come to swinley (and the most used), you'd think they'd want to keep it in tip top condition to make a good first impression. Hopefully now they've finished babymaker they'll start to look at other parts of the trails which need attention. But hey, what do I know - I don't run a trail centre 🙂
I know what you mean about the surface being annoying but this is mountain biking, not BMX!
This 100%.
Multiple times my rear wheel got kicked sideways due to a big exposed cobble, on what’s meant to be a nice smooth, flat trail.
From the BC Trail Grading System :
Blue - Moderate : The trail surface may be loose uneven or muddy at times. Trail surface may include small obstables of roots and rock.
Try looking ahead more and steer around things you don't want to ride over...
See above - I think it's pretty obvious I can handle a ****ing blue trail, come on. 🙄 There are other trail users, not just us. It's a blue trail which is the first level above wide smooth fire roads which means it's going to get used by everyone, and quite frankly the first blue sections before you reach the red are in a shocking state. If I was a normal cyclist taking a child round there for the first time, I don't think I'd bother coming back.
Blue – Moderate : The trail surface may be loose uneven or muddy at times. Trail surface may include small obstables of roots and rock.
I think the CE descriptions pitch it as intermediate, it's got some fairly substantial jumps in it, they're rollable, but they're big if you're gunning for it.
See above – I think it’s pretty obvious I can handle a **** blue trail, come on. 🙄 There are other trail users, not just us. It’s a blue trail which is the first level above wide smooth fire roads which means it’s going to get used by everyone, and quite frankly the first blue sections before you reach the red are in a shocking state. If I was a normal cyclist taking a child round there for the first time, I don’t think I’d bother coming back.
It's not meant to be groomed though. That's like saying people will be put off sailing because water is cold and wet. It's [s]mountain[/s] off road biking.
It's rideable at a bimble pace, just not fun as you found out. If you read the trail descriptions I think it fit's them probably better than a lot of trail centers manage, blue's are meant to be a challenge for intermediate, the red is actually described as "advanced" that's possibly stretching that somewhat, it's not much of a step from the blue unless you start doubling the rollers.
Now those "drops" on the red aren't the best designed in the world, but if you can't ride those, and complain about the surface of the blue (which meets the description of having rocks and roots), maybe the problem isn't with the trail? Either it's your expectations of how easy a trail should be, or you're overstating your skill level (because let's be honest, those drops are a bit of a joke).
If I was a normal cyclist taking a child round there for the first time, I don’t think I’d bother coming back
Well for a start, i wouldn't be doing it in December.... I'd be doing it when it's warm, dry and sunny.
I'd also start with the green...
That's how my first trips to Swinley with my 6 year old went anyway.
I rode the green on Monday (I have no pride)! Actually, having not been there for so long I wanted to explore everything they had done and also see what would be suitable for my kids if I do take them there. The Green is OK actually - very short, but enough variation to keep it interesting for a kid just starting out. I think my 9 year old would clear it with derision, the 7 year old - probably - given enough time, the five year old - well he'd have a go - but probably not be able to do the little climb.
As for the blue - I'm not sure any of them would be able to do the whole thing - but the 9 year old probably would if we didn't take it too seriously. It's all relative - I know there people on here whose kids compete at these ages - but for mine the most off roading they normally get to do is across the park or along the river from Windsor to Maidenhead. Hills are an abstract concept to them!
I saw that the tabletop on Babymaker had been redone but what are these large drops being talked about? Are they on one of the official trails..?
It doesn't have to be groomed, just maintained. As others have said, over the years the sand has eroded away leaving the cobbles behind.
I do think a lot of UK trail centres have the gradings a bit wrong, most reds are really blues, but from what I understand it's not the volunteers/trail builders that set the grade, it's the FC. I know Bedgebury had issues even getting berms in and convincing the FC that berms are not dangerous! For me, a good blue trail is one that can be ridden by anybody, including beginners - but then ridden by a decent MTB'er other 'features' appear, jumps, rollers, drops etc. If it's flat then let people keep the speed up to enjoy the trail, not rob speed at every opportunity. Swinley does that really well in some areas, you only need look at the newish blue final section, it's just a shame the rest of it lets it down, IMO of course.
In all, it's 'OK' but could be a lot better with some maintenance. But for me, it's not worth the extra distance over closer trail centres.
I saw that the tabletop on Babymaker had been redone but what are these large drops being talked about? Are they on one of the official trails..?
Yeah they're on red 9, 2 drops followed by a mellow table top. 'Large' is pushing it a bit, they're 1-2ft.
Yes - 'large' was tongue in cheek - more a reflection of my inability to deal with anything I can't roll comfortably on my 120 Reba's!
Are you still allowed to ride the off piste stuff. Thought one of the reasons for proper trails was for the nesting of rare birds.
Yeah they’re on red 9, 2 drops followed by a mellow table top. ‘Large’ is pushing it a bit, they’re 1-2ft.
That's pushing it, 6-8" more like!
I wondered if it was those two being referred to but they're not even a foot high so didn't think it was - thought that the black freeride area had finally been opened or something!
thought that the black freeride area had finally been opened or something!
Looked like it had been bulldozed / felled last time I was there.. there did seem to be a more progressive set of tables emerging, but they may have already been there.
I think it was the dire signpost warnings of 'New trail feature ahead' and 'DROPS' hanging from the trees that freaked me out - must try harder next time! Although....
Swinley is great - let’s have a Xmas STW ride for the lovers to show the haters how to enjoy it
Depending on date... .why the heck not 🙂
I do think a lot of UK trail centres have the gradings a bit wrong, most reds are really blues, but from what I understand it’s not the volunteers/trail builders that set the grade, it’s the FC.
It's not an FC center, it's CE, but yes the grading is comparable.
The big differentiator between Swinley and as an extreme example built buy the same team; Cwm Rhaeadr. Is Swinley is mostly flat, so you haven't got the opportunity to earn your descents. Cwm Rhaeadr you can ride uphill for 30min if you're unfit, then nail the descent in 5 and hit all the berms at the same speed as the XC whippet who rode the climb in 10min.
Swinley you can't do that, if you want to nail a berm on Stickler it's as an immediate reward for pedaling hard for the last 20m. Same with the drops on seagull, the run up is 400m, it's just uphill, they obviously don't flow if stop for a natter then try and coast into them.
Are you still allowed to ride the off piste stuff. Thought one of the reasons for proper trails was for the nesting of rare birds
No, and yes. CE have sent warnings to more prominent offenders about riding "wild trails" as they call it and state Green, Blue, Red and fireroads only. Though that's extending to the work around Labyrinth Inc Babymaker and Camel that is getting officially adopted.
Have to understand their position which is the estate while public access is private land not open common land etc and they got sued for big money before the official trails were built due to accidents and liability. Plus it's a SSSI area with Natural England on their backs. Official line has to be official trails and that's it.
Swinley and as an extreme example built buy the same team Cwm Rhaeadr
nail a berm on Stickler...... Same with the drops on seagull.............
Both Stickler and Seagull trails were built by volunteers from BOB and Gorrick, a long time before 'Back on track' came along.............
CE have sent warnings to more prominent offenders about riding “wild trails”
How do they know who people are?
I do think a lot of UK trail centres have the gradings a bit wrong, most reds are really blues, but from what I understand it’s not the volunteers/trail builders that set the grade, it’s the FC.
If a lot (implying majority) have it wrong, then what is correct?
BC define red as
A wide range of climbs and descents of a challenging nature will be present. Expect boardwalks, berms, large rocks, medium steps, drop-offs, cambers, water crossings.
Whereas blue only has
specially constructed single track. Trail surface may include small obstables of roots and rock.
A lot of reds are:
specially constructed single track. Trail surface may include small obstables of roots and rock.
Does one 6 inch drop in miles of smooth singletrack warrant a route being a red rather than a blue?
There's just no consistency either, top chief at nevis range was a red before it was renamed and regraded, which is the same grade as bedgebury...
thought so about off piste. Thanks, I will be sticking to the offical trails.
Both Stickler and Seagull trails were built by volunteers from BOB and Gorrick, a long time before ‘Back on track’ came along………….
Details schmetails.
The point was about the topography which has been arround since the last ice age, even older than the average BOB rider. 😀
How do they know who people are?
Because the SFMB page is mostly a fappathon of wanabee MTB vloggers who will post any old shite and shakey go-pro videos along with their contact details in the "credits" just in case red bull media are really desperate.
The rest were people like Bird shooting promo videos so pretty easy to work out where to send a strongly worded letter to.
Re off piste - remember the Crowthorne side is FC land so the trails there are not subject to the same restrictions. Oh and the army land to the South is sensitive.
How do they know who people are?
As above, all over the place on FB and Instagram with videos shredding the "loam". Plus I believe some groups were contacted who actively were promoting rides off-piste. Possibly some magazine types too (they don't help in Surrey Hills either with some of the stuff they post while many of us try to reduce conflict with some landowners).
Re off piste – remember the Crowthorne side is FC land so the trails there are not subject to the same restrictions.
Not any more. CE own that land now. New signs are up in places and I've seen CE vans patrolling round Corkscrew etc. Though there hasn't been any official word on the rules there aside from new signs say "cyclists welcome but please keep to designated routes".
The rest were people like Bird shooting promo videos so pretty easy to work out where to send a strongly worded letter to.
Ha yeah. Like when they wrote to us saying that I (specifically me) had been seen making off piste trails in Swinley... Only I live 300 miles away. Oh how I laughed.
Wanted to report that I returned to Swinley today and rode those pesky little drops that freaked me out last time! The smallest of pumps and even my teeny 26” wheels popped over the top. Next time I might even get both wheels off the ground at the same time! Might.
Anyway, lovely day for it!
Once again this weekend showed me my riding preference in full-effect.
Sat was a gentle road based ride, bit of a headwind, but lovely being out for 2.5 hours, cruising round, enjoying the ride and relaxing. (While putting in some effort at times too).
Sun was the fun though at Swinley. I had to collect my lad from near Hemel, so thought i'd shoot to Swinley first for an hour. Mrs weeksy was busy doing housework and shopping, so i left an hour earlier, ending up having 2.5 hours spare for Swinley fun. Set off at a reasonable pace, but DAMN the blue was busy ! people everywhere, so took it easy at times and picked my way through some slower riders. Onto 'Stickler' which is flat and insanely twisty, loved it and flew round that. But the best section was Labrinyth / Deer Stalker, tricky descent to start and then as i got to the uphill section a bloke came down another route and jumped on my wheel. He was fully lycra clad and right on the pace, so fun was to be had. It's insanely rooty and techy as far as climbs go, left right, up down, roots, jumps, drops, climbs, descents. He was on my wheel for the duration, sometimes gaining a bit, sometimes dropping 15m or so....But had an absolute blast on it !
Every time i go there, which isn't often there are little 'improvements' which are always welcome, just made a little bit better each and every time, although does sometimes catch you out a bit when you hit a section you know and it suddenly changes from where you expect, but it always seems to be for the right reasons that they've changed thing
Set a total of 91 achievements on Strava, so clearly i was pushing on over the ride, finished it off and died in the car lol. However it was just excellent fun, really love that place. Some of the times of others though really astound me, i think i'm flying along and end up in the top 15 or so for the day, the others up to the top 3 are grouped usually within a couple/few seconds of me, but then someone blows us all away and is 20s quicker on a section that i just can't fathom how they've managed it LOL.
The KTM however, stayed in the garage....It will get out this week, but only briefly. 🙂
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98th for the full loop, looking at a few of the times some are either world champions or on Ebikes lol. But that's a decent effort out of 1500 riders.
Have we done the Bike Hub doing a members only skills area in the location of the ill fated freeride area?
Members only as in only available to those who pay for a course. Not open to the public.
CE tying their hands is the excuse. If it's private it may not be a wise location with such a busy place and virtually next to the car park. Chains cut and people riding it out of hours I bet.
It was discussed in another thread a few days ago, "things afoot at Swinley" or similar name.
I saw the fencing off yesterday.... It's quite substantial.
I think in that context they're simply covering themselves to suing etc. If they fence it off and state "no admittance" etc then no-one can sue them if they use it out of hours and hurt themselves. If people do hurt themselves when on training, they'll have signed a disclaimer anyway... So it's more about that i think.
At least the area is being used for something now , there will be a new feeride area off the red (where it shouldve been built), so everyone wins
On visiting Glentress I thought the skills area they have there is exactly what Swinley needs. Same with a couple other places with good skills areas. It needs to be available to all to encourage beginners to use it (who might not be able to afford or want to pay for a course).
But understandable the liability concerns from CE. Doesn't seem to be a problem for the FC though (and Scottish equivalent).
