Sweet Spot training has been said to be effective eg https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/fitness-and-training/sweetspot-training/ (referred to 75-85% of your maximum heart rate there)
Joe Friel seems less keen on working at that level, what he calls HR Z3 90-93% of anaerobic/lactate threshold -
https://joefrielsblog.com/what-is-zone-3/
https://joefrielsblog.com/should-you-train-in-zone-3/
though mainly because he seems to promote more targeted zone work and 'race day' simulation in the later build stages of training. I expect it's the same for any training method in that they're each only a part of a plan (the bikeradar article mentions that also).
I've tried riding at this level and find I quite 'enjoy' a road ride holding this pace, seeing if I can nudge the average HR up a bit. Joe Friel call's it 'happy hard' as it's not killer and can be held for a while - though mention of Pro triathletes working at this level for 8-9hrs is a bit of a reality check...
I'm only interested in my long-distance endurance pace so any training effort for me is about increasing output at that steady audax or all-day for a few days kind of riding.
Qs for anyone who's done more training using this or know training methods better?
- If I can hold this level for 60 mins consistently ie average HR for the hour is just over 90% of LTHR, and do 90 mins on a good day currently usually a bit of fade in last 10 mins or so, what are the gains / are there any gains for long-distance pace? (long intervals work well but going from 5-8 mins at high pace to this may not translate)
- Is 60-90mins a reasonable duration for this effort level, for endurance gains? A 25 mile TT would be just under an hour for many and Elite XC is 2 hrs, they'll average a fair bit higher. That's based on training for those specific durations though? I doubt I could do much higher for 90 mins w/o working hard at it and maybe losing endurance to gain that high end pace. The 'advanced sweet spot' workout in the bikeradar article is 2x20 mins at this level which doesn't sound like much but as part of a training plan it'd be different.
- Am I better of not pretending to be a Pro roadie out on a solo break and going back to lots of long steady Z2 (that I still do for ~5 months of the year) and some short sharp stuff at LT level, or is this a good thing to stick at?
If you're doing sweet spot for 60-90 mins you aren't doing sweet spot. Sweet Spot at the lower ranges is a time crunched substitute for hours at Z2. At the higher ranges it dives into threshold improvements - just - without quite the level of fatigue, but will still be "hard".
If you have the time, time spent in the proper zones is more effective. Low end Sweet spot is good if you are short of time. Just be wary, there is no magic bullet for either end of the spectrum. Look at it this way:
Z2 - Time spent here build lots of Mitochondria - takes lots of time.
Sweet Spot - some Mitochondira and some Threshold improvements - medium time commitment
Threshold - Time spent here build lots of Threshold improvements - short time required
If you’re doing sweet spot for 60-90 mins you aren’t doing sweet spot.
As in, it's become a higher intensity/training stress due to a longer period? Or something else?
The HR level I average is what's said to be S-S (90-93% of LTHR is a fairly narrow range) and TBH I thought the point of this intensity was that an hour or so was 'time crunched'. So doing it 1x a week alongside base miles and either a turbo session (rarely) or the SS MTB (a much preferred though less focussed way to hit max) might be worthwhile. Maybe not then, if it impacts ability to do the high or low work.
Is this a case of 'pick 1 of 2 options, do sweet spot OR the base and HI mix?', based on the time you have available? Seems that's what you're saying.
Twenty mins of sweetspot can feel like a pretty tough effort. I guess Kryton is saying that if you can do 90mins then it's a lower power than sweetspot.
Personally I think it's completely unessesary to drill down into the details like this. I'm a reformed character after spending past years training by the numbers. These days I just ride my bikes lots. I tear round the place in a completely unstructured manner when the mood takes me, and amble around enjoying the scenery the rest of the time. Essentially its polarized training but just done on mood.
Most of my miles were done bikepacking this summer with many days completely off in between. When the prospect of a cx race came up, I did 3 spirited cyclocross bike rides then raced. Was as fit as when I used to kill myself training and much more inclined to dig really deep.
By the way I really rate singlespeed as an effective training tool. Covers so many bases just going for a ride.
Totally agree on not wanting to drill into the details. I just wondered if there's some experience from those who do that I can freeload off... I rarely feel as if I'm training as such, only adapting the riding that I enjoy most in a way that keeps a good base fitness and in turn I ride more, it's a positive cycle. SS MTB and the Z2 pace pootling on the lanes has been a nice mix for years now.
I guess Kryton is saying that if you can do 90mins then it’s a lower power than sweetspot.
Not sure about power as I don't have a PM. Averaging 80% of max HR and within 75-85% range, or an average of a bit over 90% of LTHR, for 60 mins riding roads where I can keep it there +/- without any downhills giving me a break. 90 mins is a stretch and I need to feel reasonably fresh to ride like this. But after about 70 mins it's a battle to keep the average from dropping, it always does drop a couple of BPM and I'm cooked at the end of it.
I guess Kryton is saying that if you can do 90mins then it’s a lower power than sweetspot.
Can't say I agree with this, in an NPS XC race I used to spend 90 mins at over 90% HR, so you can spend large amounts of time at very high intensities, it just hurts a lot.
These days I just ride my bikes lots. I tear round the place in a completely unstructured manner when the mood takes me, and amble around enjoying the scenery the rest of the time.
+1
I just go out and ride now. If we're coming back into town and I don't feel I've done enough work, I'll just TT the last 10 miles flat out to make sure I have knackered myself sufficiently to justify lying on the sofa eating club biscuits all afternoon and drinking tea....
Can’t say I agree with this, in an NPS XC race I used to spend 90 mins at over 90% HR, so you can spend large amounts of time at very high intensities, it just hurts a lot.
There's a difference between your HR being at 90% for 90 mins and power being at 90% for 90 mins, which I think is what Kryton's maybe referring to.
FWIW, I seem to remember Josh Ibbett saying that he swears by very long z3 rides for building endurance.
in an NPS XC race I used to spend 90 mins at over 90% HR, so you can spend large amounts of time at very high intensities, it just hurts a lot.
That's it, fit XC / road Cat riders will be able to ride at a higher level for longer than I can, that's why I don't see 60mins+ of JF HR Z3/sweet spot being a big deal in that respect. Simply interested in whether it has enough benefits to justify doing it more or as addition to long steady miles and the HI of SS rides.
I have found the following effective in trying to build endurance as opposed to pure top end power.
10-12 hours outside in Zone 2, with two of those being 2 hours fasted.
2 sessions per week of Sweet sport efforts, started in beginning with a warm-up, then 15 minutes Sweet Spot - 10 mins zone 2, 15 minutes sweet spot, but now up to 3 x lots of 20 mins sweet spot.
1 session a week of warm-up, 2 minutes at 100rpm at hardest effort i can keep for 2 mins, started as 6 lots of 2 minutes in a session, then worked up to 10 lots of 2 minutes at 100rpm.
So not classic HIIT work, but more sustained longer intervals and Sweet Spot.
That and as above, singlespeeding has worked for me, i have always been one to push a big gear, so on the climbs i am pushing a harder gear that i normally would, but in between, instead of pushing a big gear on the flat as well it forces me to spin at a higher 85-95rpm cadence, and i find my heart works a lot harder with a high cadence than it does pushing a bit gear, especially if you can find a good short route with lots of short climbs, alternate between sprinting out of saddle on one climb, then staying seated for next etc.
By the way I really rate singlespeed as an effective training tool. Covers so many bases just going for a ride.
Definitely this.
Having had a quick look at those links I'm not sure Friel's Z3 and BikeRadar's 'Sweet Spot' are the same thing, and the definition gets a bit blurrier if you're measuring HR rather than power. If you're fit, (I think) your sweet spot HR might get closer to LTHR. I know from my experience that an hour at my (power) sweetspot is do-able but I wouldn't want to do it very often.
Either way, I can't recall a single training plan I've ever seen that has sweet spot intervals of longer than 20mins - in fact the BikeRadar article has 2x20mins with 5 mins recovery as their 'advanced' workout.
If you're trying to get a bit more out of a 90min ride then this approach is probably going to help your fitness more. Probably worth a try to see if you enjoy it (it can be 'fun').
By the way I really rate singlespeed as an effective training tool. Covers so many bases just going for a ride.
I don't think that's true at all. Gurning up climbs in a big gear is hard work, spinning along the flats at high tempo and lower overall speed is easy, you're mixing loads of types of training into the same ride. That's not really how training is supposed to go. You can't really do a targeted constant power ride on a singlespeed.
Anyway - sweet spot seems rather loosely defined. I was looking into this yesterday and one article suggested something like 85-93% of LT - which is quite a range and would have a significant difference in my ability to sustain it for a longer period of time.
At the lower end of that scale I can maintain it for 2 hours, at the upper end it's probably 15-20 minute intervals. But even though I can maintain it - should I? The point about sweet spot is that it's not meant to be too demanding, so you don't get too tired and you can do loads of it - isn't it?
Regarding singlespeed, I know current thinking is that you shouldn't mix up your training in one session, but I could argue that the body doesn't care, races are mixed up and the fact that to get up a hill you have to go for it means the singlespeed is a potent tool. You don't have to gurn up the hills, you can accelerate before it then sprint up at a high power and cadence. I think singlespeed comes into it's own when you're just slightly overgeared and have to put out steady seated power. I gear my bikes harder than most for this reason.
Best thing is that singlespeeding is fun, silent and a lovely way to enjoy the trails thus you enjoy doing it.
10-12 hours outside in Zone 2, with two of those being 2 hours fasted.
In one session? I like long rides but that's going some : )
and i find my heart works a lot harder with a high cadence than it does pushing a bit gear,
Yes, this 60-90mins sweet spot thing has showed me how to pace a bit better - I can keep my HR high for longer by upping cadence / dropping a gear or so. Av speed seems to be same or better so assuming power output is at least maintained. Big gears do burn you out faster.
Gurning up climbs in a big gear is hard work, spinning along the flats at high tempo and lower overall speed is easy, you’re mixing loads of types of training into the same ride. That’s not really how training is supposed to go.
Regarding singlespeed, I know current thinking is that you shouldn’t mix up your training in one session,
I could see a SS ride as a loose/varied interval session. It's either really hard or really easy. I don't though, just ride it for the fun and variety.
Best thing is that singlespeeding is fun, silent and a lovely way to enjoy the trails thus you enjoy doing it.
Definitely.
one article suggested something like 85-93% of LT
Middle of both Joe Friel's 90-93% of LTHR and the 75-85% of max HR range some quote work out the same level for me. 85-93% LT does seem like a wide range. 85% LT is almost into that 'grey miles' pace I think?
I don't think singlespeed is technically great 'training' as it's unstructured, and you could achieve greater gains doing something structured and ideally repeatable etc.
Not saying it isn't hard work or good fun, just saying that as a training tool it's probably not ideal.
Middle of both Joe Friel’s 90-93% of LTHR and the 75-85% of max HR range
That's interesting, hadn't seen the the max HR range before, useful as that's all I know, don't really know what my LTHR is.
I think I'm still doing Sweetspot wrong, probably because I've only got HR to go off.
Outdoor efforts (e.g. a long gradual 20 minute climb) seem relatively easy but at 166BMP or 90% max HR. These are repeatable on the day but I guess the point is I probably couldn't do the same session the very next day which is the point of Sweetspot.
Indoors I'll hold very slightly lower but still closer to 90% Max HR. Again, I can complete the workout easily enough but haven't tried same workout again the next day.
So in theory I should be going a bit easier, which means I could probably easily achieve 60-90 minutes (well, I suspect boredom would set in unfortunately).
I can see why it's a substitute for 'base miles' as it probably wouldn't feel like a very rewarding workout but at least you're achieving similar benefits in less time.
@stevious, you're probably right and I may have mis-read or misunderstood the intent of sweet-spot levels. I read is as saying they were the same as in Joe Friel's article he says
Cycling HR Zones as a percent of anaerobic threshold—ATHR (Friel) = Z3 90-93%
- and anaerobic threshold is lactate threshold.
The bikeradar article says
“I define sweetspot using Dr Andrew Coggan’s approach, which is 88-93% of your FTP (Functional Threshold Power) or your Functional Threshold Heart Rate, which is 75-85% of your maximum heart rate,” says Rowe.
and for me 90% lactate threshold and 80% max HR are about the same level, max sustainable 60 mins pace on the road.
So if the point of sweet spot is not to do more than 20 mins at a time then I'm not doing that. On the basis that training rides should be either really hard or really easy, what I am doing should be constructive anyway. Understanding a bit more about how/why/when/if is all I'm after.
Indoors I’ll hold very slightly lower but still closer to 90% Max HR.
That's approx LTHR I thought? If it's 20 mins at max sustainable, or the 2nd 2/3 of a 30 mins max test. I couldn't hold 90% for 20 mins but have got close to that level when in the habit on the turbo. Would rather not though : ) 2 x 20 mins at LT is really hard, horrible-hard not happy-hard.
https://www.trainerroad.com/blog/sweet-spot-training-everything-you-need-to-know/
https://www.trainerroad.com/blog/strengthening-ftp-through-sweet-spot-training/
Some good Trainer Road articles, i find i have real discrepancies between turbo trainer and actually riding outside, in that i can sustain higher power and heart rates outside for seems a lower effort.
I keep my sweet sport efforts as 10 mins warm up, 20 mins in sweet spot, 5 minutes easy spinning, 20 mins in sweet spot, 8 mins easy spinning, 20 mins in sweet spot and warm-down.
These are repeatable on the day but I guess the point is I probably couldn’t do the same session the very next day which is the point of Sweetspot.
Not quite in my experience. I've found myself able to do 2 or 3 days of sweet spot back-to-back but any more than that I'd start to get into unproductive fatigue. And I wouldn't want to do 3 consecutive days of it every week. I like to think of it as the hardest effort level that I could come back to a few times a week over a few weeks.
2 x 20 mins at LT is really hard, horrible-hard not happy-hard
Usually takes me a few weeks of shorter SS intervals before I'll even consider a 2x20 session. Once I'm there it's tough, but not foetal-position at the end tough.
Anyway, it seems like your approach is giving you good motivation and certainly won't be making you less fit (unless you overdo it). It's easy to forget that having fun on the bike is just as important as optimising everything physiologically.
Not quite in my experience. I’ve found myself able to do 2 or 3 days of sweet spot back-to-back but any more than that I’d start to get into unproductive fatigue.
My post was poorly worded, I meant that the point of sweetspot IS that it is repeatable! Suggesting that my efforts although sustainable on the day perhaps were too hard for true sweetspotm as I wouldn't want to do them again the next day.
All academic though, just as I was getting into the swing of things I've had to accept a couple of weeks off the bike as I think I've given myself some sort of bursitis on the sit bone, too much fiddling with saddles and position! Grrr...
The other 2 problems with measuring sweet spot via HR:
a) Cardiac drift - if you are measuring low SS for long intervals your HR will drift up with fatigue during the interval. If you're trying to keep it the same then at that point your are naturally lowering your effort to compensate, possibly drifting into Z3.
b) Outdoors - very hard to find a pice of road where you can be at constant power for 60-90 mins, so your HR will be constantly up & down
Cardiac drift – if you are measuring low SS for long intervals your HR will drift up with fatigue during the interval.
I find the other way - if I'm fatigued my HR is supressed....
Any method (HR or power) doesn't cope with the fact once you're knackered you can't stay in the same zone.....
One the subject of zones, I used to get a blood lactate test done on a Watt bike at the local Uni's sports science department, was dirt cheap as you're giving a student practice doing it, so just cost materials. Probably not easy to do now with CV-19.
eg This is before and after one winters base training (many moons ago).
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48389153712_1d2c712f1d_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48389153712_1d2c712f1d_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2gHZ4xE ]Lactate test results[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr
You can get a lactate meter for £300. Expensive, but it's quite an important metric and if you can justify £500 on a power meter and £4k on a bike it's probably value for money.
Or we could club together and buy one to share...
a) Cardiac drift – if you are measuring low SS for long intervals your HR will drift up with fatigue during the interval. If you’re trying to keep it the same then at that point your are naturally lowering your effort to compensate, possibly drifting into Z3.
b) Outdoors – very hard to find a pice of road where you can be at constant power for 60-90 mins, so your HR will be constantly up & down
I guess a) you ride to speed instead (if you're using a dumb trainer/rollers) an accept the HR will be higher at the end
and
b) I'd understood with sweetspot it's really more about volume, so if you can do several shorter efforts it all adds up. Granted I've not been trying to do 90 minutes sweetspot yet but the efforts I have been doing have been typically several efforts at between 8 and 20 minutes, with easy spinning in between (e.g. where you need to mess about with junctions/lights etc).
Overall, I've realised that even if I never get any fitter, the benefit of training will be that I know how to pace myself! Frankly even with the best coaching in the world, by the time I head to the Pyrenees next summer, my times will still be frankly mediocre. I really enjoyed myself in Girona last year because I rode to heart rate on the climbs, meaning I wouldn't blow up stupidly mid-climb etc. I'd like not to rely on HRM in future so it's been useful learning what the various zones feel like.
I find the other way – if I’m fatigued my HR is supressed
This'd by unusual for short term intervals but yes is absolutely an indicator of long term fatigue.
You can get a lactate meter for £300.
Quite hard to do though, you need to be riding on a Wattbike at a set Wattage whilst someone pricks your ear and takes a sample and has to analyse it in under 2 min before the Watts ramp by another 25Watt etc.
I used to rock up at the local Uni, pay £50 and half an hour later have my graph....
I have experienced HR reducing due to fatigue with high intensity efforts - cos your legs get more knackered, you can't stress your heart as much. However on long 3hr+ base rides I've definitely seen it drift up when RPE and power stay the same.
I have experienced HR reducing due to fatigue with high intensity efforts – cos your legs get more knackered,
It's actually CNS fatigue rather than legs, studies show that electrically stimulated your legs can still generate the same force as when fresh.
The other 2 problems with measuring sweet spot via HR:
a) Cardiac drift – if you are measuring low SS for long intervals your HR will drift up with fatigue during the interval. If you’re trying to keep it the same then at that point your are naturally lowering your effort to compensate, possibly drifting into Z3.
b) Outdoors – very hard to find a pice of road where you can be at constant power for 60-90 mins, so your HR will be constantly up & down
I know HR is only going to be a guide vs power training, TBH I'm not really interested in the accuracy and data enough to train with a power meter. I do find HR a useful guide and a way to keep tabs on my work level, that's all. For shorter intervals it's probably not that accurate at all but the shortest intervals I'd do on the turbo are 5 minutes and I'm fairly used to the lag either way.
I'm lucky that where I live I can find very hilly or fairly rolling routes, I have a good 2hr loop that has no more than a few gentle rollers so 80% Max HR +/- 5bpm is possible, if I go a bit outside that I'm not too worried.
Oddly I quite like the 'game' of HR levels on long trad Z2 rides or these 60-90mins JF Z3s, there's a discipline in the pacing and it improves my riding generally as I get a good feel for my effort levels. One thing I've noticed is that if I can follow line of thought as I ride then my effort level has dropped below a good JF Z3 effort - when I'm on top of the work rate it's a more in the moment, just riding and effort. I like that. LTHR turbo efforts can get into a similar place occasionally once I'm well into the plan, find I can hold the level with almost a sense of calm focus. Hard to achieve but feels strangely good.
the benefit of training will be that I know how to pace myself!.... I’d like not to rely on HRM in future so it’s been useful learning what the various zones feel like.
Exactly. This is all about experience, pace and being able to use it well over the longer rides I can do in summer, I put a lot of value on and really enjoy having the ability and experience to ride at a good, consistent level. After a while with a HR (or PM I expect) the ability to ride to an effort level or PE comes more naturally. Basically I'm training to be a Fred Audaxer when I'm older.. ha.
Stephen Seiler
How "normal people" can train like the worlds best endurance athletes.
Interesting video. Not sure about the science behind it, he's extrapolating what professional athletes do to time limited amateurs....
If you only have a few hours each week to ride and do 90% green zone stuff, you're not going to get very fit. It works for pro cyclists as they do back to back 5-6 hour rides every day with a bit of hard stuff dropped in occasionally.
I'm pretty skeptical that would be the best way to train. If you're not doing much training, you're at less risk of systemic overload, so can spend more time working relatively harder.
Watched the video, it's backing up what I think many of us do - he suggests (for endurance work) 80-85% base work and the rest a mix of mid to HI work. Assumes you have the time for it - if you need 1hr HI a week then you're doing 8hrs at base pace.
Not sure about the science behind it, he’s extrapolating what professional athletes do to time limited amateurs….
It's that time-limited bit that gave rise to sweet-spot ideas isn't it? Quick fix fraud or beneficial session who knows. I can say from experience that a 90-10 mix works wonders if you have 20-25hrs a week for 5-6 months but it would take a few years of training cycles for any of us to be able to compare that to only S-S training.
It’s that time-limited bit that gave rise to sweet-spot ideas isn’t it?
I guess, although I'd like to see the science behind it first.
I've long since lost my Joe Friel MTB Bible but I'm sure there was something in there about WE warrior training pattern working quite well as you beast yourself Sat / Sub but then have 5 days of office work to recover, so you get training stimulus but don't end up over trained.
Personally, I just go out and beast myself as I quite like doing that, I don't really care if its optimal or not eg I went out for 2 hours yesterday evening and had to take pain killers this am as my legs hurt so much sitting at my desk!