I also ride a fully rigid MTB, and it's far nicer than my FS when 'locked out'. I'm not entirely sure why though.
Same for the others on the Cane Creek. I have a DB Coil IL and the climb switch is the only lockout I've ever really got along with. It's great - it keeps the shock mobile, but adjusts the damping. Minimises pedal strikes, but gets the traction benefits of rear suspension. Brilliant, I tell ya! 🙂
Never used it on my Hemlock.. didn't even realise the Jeffsy didn't have it for a while.
Don't see the point if you aren't a racer who needs to sprint
I also ride a fully rigid MTB, and it’s far nicer than my FS when ‘locked out’. I’m not entirely sure why though.
I sometimes feel this... I'd say 'faster' not nicer.. but that's probably because comparing the climbing of a weight weenie titanium rigid singlespeed against a 150/160mm travel trail bike isn't really fair!!
The SS just rockets up stuff!!
DrP
My Giant Anthem climbs much worse in full lockout mode than in the middle 'trail' setting. It also feels really weird when fully locked out pedalling on the road. Ergo, I never use the lockout. I'd expect it to make even less difference on a proper trail bike.
I use my twin remote lock out all the time, it’s excellent and used as intuitively as a dropper.
So in that case assuming the power is equal, you’d expect higher HRs on the the non-locked out bike ?
Yes I suppose you could use HR as a surrogate for VO2 but it's not a very sensitive measure and will drift throughout the course of an afternoon's testing so you'd have to use it VERY carefully.
having a lot of suspension damping (but not locked) is possibly worse than wide open. Locked (absolutely) is the same as a hardtail, but lots of damping means your downwards energy is converted into heat (and lost) by the damper. If you ran on no damping, you’d bounce around a lot but you’d get almost all the energy back as the spring decompresses (maybe, I’m not a scientist)
I think what you've said is true for rebound damping (which resists the shock's return) but not true for compression damping. Lockout circuits usually only affect compression I think.
But in a way you are right. With a shock 'open' we usually mean no platform/ compression damping but with the rebound damping still active. So yes the rebound circuit is sapping your power. I had wondered if you could measure the oil temperature and work out energy lost via the damper.
One thing that study didn’t address was that any bob could potentially mean putting more effort in that’s not being transmitted to the pedals (core tone, arms etc) which obviously wouldn’t reach the power readings.
This again. Even on a short travel FS, seated, I can feel the extra effort to keep my body centred in the most efficient spot for pedalling. It's not so much time, as cumulative extra fatigue on a longer ride.
Lockout circuits usually only affect compression I think.
Most do..
The Cane creek DB shocks affect compression AND rebound..hence why they da bomb....!
DrP
I sometimes feel this… I’d say ‘faster’ not nicer.. but that’s probably because comparing the climbing of a weight weenie titanium rigid singlespeed against a 150/160mm travel trail bike isn’t really fair!!
My rigid bike and XC FS weigh about the same and both are geared. The rigid bike is a much more 'positive' feeling place to sit and pedal. And even more to stand and pedal. I think it's because I can move around a lot more and it doesn't boing about. And it's much stiffer side to side because there aren't pivots and stuff. Not that my FS bike is particularly flexy, but I can really feel it.
The bike doesn't bob under pedalling, but if I put my weight forward, say, the front goes down, and vice versa - this is unavoidable unless you have a full lockout. When riding it unlocked I don't notice any extra effort, but it does make me sit and spin which is arguably more efficient than moving around. But it's less 'satisfying', somehow.
Interesting, but more PB bro Science.
A lockout is designed to get you stood and cranking, no lockout and that's not feasible without significant lost energy.
Imagine a system that enables you to lock your bike out without taking your hands off the bars, even an option allowing you to shorten the rear wheel travel to increase efficiency in technical climbs or flow trail and then still with hands on the bars, open the suspension all the way up for max gnar DH ability.
as a fat knacker i font the lockout (or trail to open ) on my shock has a massive difference. On hills using it keeps my knees free of pain and means i can do about 5 miles more than with it fully open.
go figure.
Similar could be said for dropper posts.
The lockouts on Marzocchi forks used to work on the rebound circuit, effectively introducing a top-out spacer into the fork. I really liked this feature, it had the effect of stiffening the fork (but it would still respond to big hits) and steepening up the bike for climbing.
+1 for the lockout on the Cane Creek DB shocks, you get a bit of suspension on climbs which works nicely.
A lockout is designed to get you stood and cranking, no lockout and that’s not feasible without significant lost energy.
I don't think the energy lost by bobbing suspension is what you'd call 'significant'. I mean shocks can get slightly warm, but only after smashing it down some rough descent. The tiny amount of bob you get when pedalling is nothing. Even when standing on the pedals the bounce is trivial, I'd say. The reason I don't like it is because it feels less positive, it's a less pleasing sensation. I really don't think I'm any faster locked out or not, on a smooth trail.
I was going to say what greyspoke said but in less technical terms. On my hardtails I rarely use lockout. It adds little. I used to really like the lock down (was it ETA?) on my marzocchis back in the day. Not so much the lack of movement but the steeper angle for climbing and fast non technical stuff.
I’ve always constantly turned on climb switch for any length of climb on my full suss. Just don’t like the feeling without which may be due to riding hardtail and road bikes? Always done this across a number of bikes and shocks.
Cane creek air il currently and the mirror thoughts above of it being the best by far.
Scotts twin lock is brilliant and i use it all the time makes total sense especially the way the short travel option works..i also love the full lock out ..
I have removed it from the fork and feel it make the twinlock make even more sense when climbing...
You could look at it as a geometry adjuster at the flik of a thumb...
Similar could be said for dropper posts.
I think you are on your own with that one.
I am the same as EhWhoMe
Scott twin remote lock out is great for the rear, and bit like them, I adjusted the front fork to only into "traction control" when rear sock is in full lock out.
I hardly ever lock out the front forks (on any bike) for some reason.
The rear shock when in "traction control" was great for climbing it just put you and the bike in a better riding position.
Dropper posts are probably the best thing in MTB in recent memory for me.
Couldn't live without one for any sort of tech riding now. I was forever dropping my post or riding with a compromised saddle height.
Lockouts? Barely used them when I had them...when im climbing I want the suspension to work so it can smooth of bumps and add traction
The travel drop feature on my Wotans was a much more useful feature as it lowered the front end but still kept the fork working.
It would be interesting to see this comparison done on a bike with a idler and adjustable anti-squat, so you could run the exact same shock tune, axle path, leverage curve, and then see how the climb switch benefits vary vs anti-squat %.
It's an interesting side effect to the loss of a granny ring.
On lots of suspension designs the suspension would naturally firm up in the granny ring because of the relative location of the pivot to the chain - it added pedal feedback but this would mean pedal induced bob was actively resisted rather than isolated (as modern designs try to do)
If you are see sawing your weight all over the place and causing the suspension to bob, then that's not particularly efficient anyway, and that's a different thing to suspension movement caused by pedalling action. Climbing out of the saddle is exhausting!
Sit and spin and let the suspension do its job.
I only ever used a lockout on very long road climbs.
Off road you need / benefit from suspension up hill and down.
This. I very rarely use it and when I do at least half the time I leave it on for (at least) the next descent and wonder why the suspension feels crap. Off road traction is always better with it off.
