[Closed] Freeman guilty. Fall of another hero?

I hope there's more evidence than just the balance of probability and believing Shane Sutton.

I hope there’s more evidence than just the balance of probability and believing Shane Sutton.

That's precisely how the GMC decides cases - on the civil standard of proof. "The civil standard of proof is whether a particular set of facts occurred on the ‘balance of probabilities’, ie were more likely to have occurred than not."

So as it stands, we'll be in a situation where the GMC says 'we think this probably happened' but Sutton can reasonably say he's not been criminally convicted. Unless more evidence has emerged, I reckon this'll just drift away quietly. Which is a problem.

Unless more evidence has emerged, I reckon this’ll just drift away quietly. Which is a problem.

It won't because it now goes back to UKAD.

Hilariously the report describes Shane Sutton as a 'credible witness'. Dear god...

He later claimed he was unaware of testosterone's performance-enhancing benefits

And flushed his defence down the toilet right there.

So the team Doctor ordered Testogel.
Then he spent time lying and covering up facts etc.

I'm surprised people don't see this as anything other than some of the riders cheating.
What are people expecting - a video of him injecting riders ?

I fear there any be an Olympian or 2 with a very squeaky bun today.

I’m surprised people don’t see this as anything other than some of the riders cheating.

I think the plausible deniability comes because we don't know which riders were being juiced. Wiggo can still claim he didn't, it was just some other bad apple. Cue some no-name mystery rider who comes forward to admit to using PEDs under Freeman in 2011.

When was Tiernan-Locke there...?

He later claimed he was unaware of testosterone's performance-enhancing benefits

He's certainly guilty of something dodgy, and I would be amazed if Sutton was clean.

Whether we'll ever really know, I'm not sure.

Wonder how it would have played out if he hadn't cast aspersions on Sutton's ability to get it up though. That was both inspired and insane at the same time. Unless it was actually true.

Tiernan-Lock got done for the blood passport before he joined and then had his contract annulled due to being done for doping.

I fear there any be an Olympian or 2 with a very squeaky bun today.

I didn't think Gareth Bale went to the Olympics. But he does have a squeaky bun.

He later claimed he was unaware of testosterone’s performance-enhancing benefits

If that's true he should be stripped of being a doctor as well. 😀

He later claimed he was unaware of testosterone’s performance-enhancing benefits

With that one comment, his entire defence crumbled.
Either he's lying - a blatant obvious lie which even a GCSE Biology student could spot - or he's not qualified to be a doctor.

Now there'll be a witch-hunt for the "unnamed rider" where that odious little Mail journo will throw shit at every wall in the hope that some of it sticks. But there isn't an unnamed rider because at least part of Freeman's defence was true. But when you've spent the last god knows how many months part lying, part telling the truth, part obfuscating, the bits where you are telling the truth suddenly become very blurred.

But there isn’t an unnamed rider because at least part of Freeman’s defence was true.

Which part?

No idea if it's going to go the way of Lance, but it's been obvious for years that the performances of Team Sky don't add up.

100% clean riders showing drastic improvements, riding in a train that consistently dropped their largely doping competitors with climb times not really that dissimilar to the EPO years, whilst hiring the world's most famous blood doping doctor to "treat cuts and bruises", and using conveniently timed TUEs for performance enhancing medication.

Well they all seem suspect to me. The team Dr didn't give them performance enhancing drugs without the riders knowing. That's pretty impossible.

If your a rider and the Dr sticks a needle in your arm you are going to ask what is for. You are going to be all over your training plan and results. You will know all about banned stuff and be aware of the dangers of putting things in you that could be banned.

Were some of the team riders way slower than others ?

I think the plausible deniability comes because we don’t know which riders were being juiced. Wiggo can still claim he didn’t, it was just some other bad apple. Cue some no-name mystery rider who comes forward to admit to using PEDs under Freeman in 2011.

TBH it might have made more sense to Juice other members of the team, but keep their GC contender Clean/deniable, having a few "super-duper" domestiques is probably more beneficial overall than a juiced GC contender...

It feels more like part of the groundwork for a future claim.
Start by proving there were people within the (shared) support team for BC/Sky obtaining and supplying banned substances... Demonstrating the route/process by which they would get used on riders is the next (probably harder) step.

The other thing is this is a verdict on a single medical professionals conduct, not strictly speaking an investigation into BC/Sky. Other bodies need to take up this ruling and then see how it applies in their sphere?

Question:
Not being a doping expert myself, what might be the real performance benefit of an externally applied Testosterone gel? Especially when (in the apparent case of the mystery Jiffy bag) used mid-season rather than during training? Might it bump red blood cell production a tad? Would it have an impact on Muscle recovery?
Is it less detectable than alternatives?

Well they all seem suspect to me. The team Dr didn’t give them performance enhancing drugs without the riders knowing. That’s pretty impossible.

Well could it be used on an athlete (say during a Massage?) without their knowledge/Providing a bit of last ditch "Plausible deniability"...

what might be the real performance benefit of an externally applied Testosterone gel?

Pretty sure Floyd Landis got popped for Testosterone after his miraculous ride on stage 17 of the TDF in 2006. Rode everyone off his wheel and put minutes into them all.

Pretty sure Floyd Landis got popped for Testosterone after his miraculous ride on stage 17 of the TDF in 2006. Rode everyone off his wheel and put minutes into them all.

With the tiny downside being that it's massively detectable.

I think the benefit is they can ride fast enough to win. So basically anyone winning must be cheating, right ?

That's the sad but understandable view people are likely to have.

Same old, same old - nothing changes in the world of Pro cycling and seemingly never will.

basically anyone winning must be cheating, right ?

Yep it's sad that a "clean" team are under suspicion, especially when all they've done is consistently dominate doping teams at a sport with a justified dirty history, and winning Grand Tours with riders who never previously showed any real promise at climbing mountains, but are now beating the best climbers in the world, many of whom are doping, whilst hiring the world's most infamous blood doping doctor.

"I'll say to the people who don't believe, the cynics and the sceptics: I'm sorry for you. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles."

Pretty sure Floyd Landis got popped for Testosterone after his miraculous ride on stage 17 of the TDF in 2006. Rode everyone off his wheel and put minutes into them all.

Was that injected?

My question was specifically about 'Testogel' which is applied to the skin right?
Mainly sold to balding, flaccid men innit? Hence his attempt to claim he ordered to help Sutton's todger.

I'm just trying to understand why would a doper use testosterone this particular way.
does it help make it less detectable? To avoid having unexplained evidence of needle use?
And would the performance benefits still be as pronounced?
Would/could it aid in recovery as well as performance?

Not being a doping expert myself, what might be the real performance benefit of an externally applied Testosterone gel?

It is literally testosterone in gel form. Spread on a cyclist and works overnight as a steady flow of testosterone into the bloodstream .They were probably using it to aid recovery

and winning Grand Tours with riders who never previously showed any real promise at climbing

Such as wiggins who previously who demonstrated no ability in the mountains obviously other than a fourth place in the tour with Garmin.

Beating climbers? When did a pure climber last win the tour - 2010 maybe or 1998?
Dominating other teams, not so sure on that, their record outside t de f is a bit patchy for a team of super-dopers

Not to mention Sky had a massive **** off budget to buy talent (including the strongest rider in Froome) and genuinely were a step ahead on the sporty-sciencey stuff.

Note Jumbo Visma and other teams have closed the gap considerably now and Ineos are unlikely to have the favourite rider going into this year's TdF.

Such as wiggins who previously who demonstrated no ability in the mountains obviously other than a fourth place in the tour with Garmin.

You're assuming that Wiggins was clean then. Look at his GT performances prior to 2009. He was a 4 minute track rider who turned into a 3 week Grand Tour contender, keeping pace with Lance, Contador etc. The same Wiggins who desperately needed 3 TUEs designed for medical emergencies immediately prior to 3 big races that he competed in?

Look at Froome's achievements prior to 2011? Then suddenly out climbing everyone and beating Martin and Cancellara in Time Trials? Must be the Bilharzia.

Beating climbers? When did a pure climber last win the tour

- I'm not talking about pure climbers, I'm talking about Valverde, Contador etc.

No, it's all lies.

The reason they were so fast was their wheels were really, really round.

Sounded legit to me.

Look at Froome’s achievements prior to 2011?

Really?

This has been done to death, repeatedly.

The reason they were so fast was their wheels were really, really round.

Well that and that they all took their own pillows with them.

Really? This has been done to death, repeatedly.

Yep, that time he got caught cheating in the Giro holding onto a motorbike as he couldn't keep up, gave him that extra speed which he maintained for the next decade.

People make the same mistake with Team Sky as they did with US Postal. They listen to the riders' quotes, lap up all the PR, exaggerated scientific claims and ignore all the evidence that contradicts this. A clean team hiring dirty doctors, beating all the dirty teams with climb times as fast as they've ever been. Must be the beetroot juice.

If Sky were Spanish or Italian then they'd be viewed with far more suspicion. But they're British, and us Brits don't cheat.

TBH it might have made more sense to Juice other members of the team, but keep their GC contender Clean/deniable

At which point he's not a GC contender any more.

– I’m not talking about pure climbers, I’m talking about Valverde, Contador

Valverde multiple time gt winner (not)
By the time Sky started regular besting contador he was well past his best.

If Sky were Spanish or Italian then they’d be viewed with far more suspicion.

Really?

They've been viewed with loads of suspicion. People wave syringes at them and throw cups of piss at Froome.

How did you miss all that?

Dave Brailsford will be lying low for some time.

Its clear to me that team sky drove a coach and horses thru the intent of the antidoping rules and maybe the letter of them as well

Wiggins TUEs were ridiculous. Clearly against the spirit of the rules

Mainly sold to balding, flaccid men innit? Hence his attempt to claim he ordered to help Sutton’s todger.

He probably said that just to enrage the angry little Australian. 😀

(Sutton lived in the same block in Cardiff as my brother, and we made the mistake of parking in 'his' (unmarked) parking place. He came out in a very angry mood, and promptly got into a fight with my father. Or rather, ran away from my rather large father as he was chased around the carpark. )

Valverde multiple time gt winner (not)
By the time Sky started regular besting contador he was well past his best.

Contador won 3 grand tours after Froome won his first? Valverde has 6 tour podiums and 13 top 10s in that period.

They’ve been viewed with loads of suspicion. People wave syringes at them and throw cups of piss at Froome.

How did you miss all that?

I'm referring to this country - I'm well aware of how other countries perceive them - simply as they've seen this all before.

I wonder if it explains the teamgGB clique of riders who were treated well, and those who were bullied out of the program. Are the inner circle those who were more receptive to doping?

I wonder if it explains the teamgGB clique of riders who were treated well, and those who were bullied out of the program. Are the inner circle those who were more receptive to doping?

It's a theory. And not a terrible one.

Another theory is that Sutton is a massive bellend.

Both theories may be true of course.

Interestingly, (or not), depends on your POV I guess, I've just asked one of my GPs if she's knows whether giving testogel to a rider would help his performance. Her answer: "no idea" Now, she's not a sports doctor, and not a follower of cycling, but she had to think about it, and she commented afterwards; "I'm not sure the teeny amounts in Testogel would make any difference to a  trained athlete"

So, just so's you know. Just because we assume that doctors know about this stuff, some don't.

Contador won 3 grand tours after Froome won his first? Valverde has 6 tour podiums and 13 top 10s in that period.

So sky weren’t dominating them then?

So sky weren’t dominating them then?

C'mon, this isn't difficult to understand..

Team Sky/Ineos won the TDF in 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 & 2019.

Contador entered 5 of those and lost every time (retiring in 2017).

Valverde entered every single one of those and lost every time.