[Closed] Supporting LBS

I would imagine it's more than likely the shop is being cautious in an ever changing world of standards. As the OP has stated no body in the UK is listing Boost XTR Hubs, so its obviously a low-sale product. Say the OP suddenly changed his mind and no longer wanted XTR hubs and the shop is lumped with an expensive set of hubs it is more than likely nobody else will want. Then his profit turns into several quid sat on the shelf possibly never to be sold or at best sold at cost, which defeats the point of selling them in the first place. For special order items like that its good practice to have this sort of thing in place, especially for smaller business. Why not just buy the hubs from mainland Europe and give the LBS the trade for the rest of the groupset? Seems like the most sensible way to go about it!

On a much cheaper LBS point I ordered a cassette click and collect from my lbs because they have several branches and I wanted to make sure it was in stock in my nearest branch. When I went to fetch it it was priced up six quid more than I payed on line! So if I had wandered in and bought it off the shelf it would have cost more . Isn't this a bit odd?

This is the same at Euro Parts. I can order something for the car online and pick it up at a cheaper price than if I wander into the shop and buy it over the counter.

Even the guys in the shop don't understand it. They still pick it of the racking and serve me, which they'd do if I walked into the shop and asked for it, but it's a good deal cheaper to order online and then collect it. Odd.

OP, you sound reasonable to me.
I'd have quoted the online price and asked how close they could get. I happily pay a little more to support them and get the local service but how much more is the issue. I pay £7 for tubes I can buy online for £4 but I wouldn't pay £1600 if I could buy it in seconds online for <£1500. I think they appreciate the opportunity to make a sale and try their best but we both understand they can't compete on everything. I like my LBS a lot, really good people and I want them to survive so it's probably good I'm not great at the spannering hence they get all that business.

most LBS staff are on near min wage.

No wonder - they're turning down free money. How much extra could the staff get with £450 than with £0? Minimum wage is £7.50 so that's 60 hours of staff time paid for or a little bonus for the day.

What would I know though, apparently I'm clueless 🙄

Say the OP suddenly changed his mind and no longer wanted XTR hubs and the shop is lumped with an expensive set of hubs it is more than likely nobody else will want.

Er, no, it would be special order so pre-paid and no returns aside from warranty. If it ended up on their shelf they would still have my money.

I'd have quoted the online price and asked how close they could get. I happily pay a little more to support them and get the local service but how much more is the issue.

Yup, that's what I was doing. Even told him I happily pay a premium to buy locally and it was a flat, cold no to any discussion on the topic. There was no trying their best, no chat about what I wanted, no discussion of anything at all. It was a "you'll pay RRP as set by the supplier". As I said earlier, there are literally no products in the UK listed at RRP even when they are new! The brand spanking new Dura Ace components which have only just started shipping are a good example. They are on pre-order but already the power cranks are listed at £150 off RRP. I'd suggest the market for Shimano's first crack at a power meter is less than the market for XTR cranks that are 3mm wider than standard...

I suspect given your demeanor on here, they saw an cunning opportunity to never have to deal with you again.

lustyd - Member
most LBS staff are on near min wage.
No wonder - they're turning down free money. How much extra could the staff get with £450 than with £0? Minimum wage is £7.50 so that's 60 hours of staff time paid for or a little bonus for the day.

What would I know though, apparently I'm clueless

But your not letting them get £450? You told them to jog on at that price.

Here's a suggestion though, rather than suggesting the death knell for all IBD's, why don't you [i]just go to a different one?[/i] they're not all the same!

On the wider LBS point, I was at my nearest LBS a few weeks ago and spotted the Conti GP4000's I was planning on buying anyway.
£50!!!!! Each!!!!!

So I take one to the till and ask the guy if he can shift on the price. I'd have probably paid £40 for the convenience of walking out with them.

"No sorry!" came the reply.
"Ah ok, I can get them from Decathlon for £30" says I and go to put it back.
"Well I couldn't have got anywhere near that anyway!" he says shirtily.

Now this implies that he did have wiggle room but was holding out for the full price which is shitty to start with but then when I brought it to their attention on their FB page, they started bleeting on about the usual 'unseen costs" involved with running a shop blah blah blah.

It seems a bit of a joke tbh. I'd rather go to a couple of shipping containers with a till at one end and buy stuff at a fair price than fund some lifestyle cafe come boutique.

Many shops price match these days, but doubt any shops will pricematch the German sites but many would happily match the cheapest UK price. Had a customer last week who wanted us to price match a word of mouth price some other shop had promised him, obviously we said no.

This is why nobody buys groupsets from their LBS, and I doubt many bike shops expect their customers to.

Spend your money there on the things they can be reasonably competitive on.

The thing is, is if you were paying on a credit or debit card the money'd take a few days to appear in the LBS's account but they'd have to be able to pull £1000 or so out to order the stuff in [i]before[/i] that money was available to them. Things might [i]actually[/i] be that tight. We used to get this sort of thing when we had a (LBS) motorcycle workshop- I'd have to ask for deposits on expensive stuff because we couldn't afford to be £££ down for a few days between the customer asking for parts and us actually receiving payment for them. It could sometimes be up to a week until the customer was able to get in and pay for stuff and the lack of cash flow (and understanding from customers) kills small, local (usually friendly) businesses which is partly why we shut the workshop and moved to selling online.

I think it should just be like corkage at a restaurant.

Order your own parts to the store > they will fit at an hourly rate that they set in line with knowing this is taking place / or charge a fixed fee per part.

Order from store at RRP for a reduced hourly rate or free, depending on the margin of the part.

My issue with multiple LBS is poor fitting / workshop. Very annoying when I know I can do a better job myself but my issue is time. If they can guarantee good service they can charge a premium and focus on profitable / non time wasting customers. This is one thing CRC / similar cannot compete on.

When an LBS is good it really it is awesome. Think they just need to be upfront / transparent with customers and focus on workshop / suspension / custom build.

Crikey. Lots to read since I last posted... 🙂
Sorry, I've been busy charging RRP and paying my own wages.... 🙂

So the RRP on the parts is £1600 and PP reckons there is £440 of margin to the LBS in selling them to you at the that price. Or at least I think he does - is VAT worked into that?

Of course VAT is worked into that. Surprisingly VAT isn't profit you know. Phhhhh
Off the top of my head I was thinking we usually pay around 55% of the RRP. So around £850 on £1600. Vat will be a bit under £300 on that sale, so £1600-( £850+£300 ) = £450.
I was offering to fit for free for that as well, so not just "ordering the parts"

As an aside, I'd say 9 times out of 10 when a customer brings me a pile of internet bought parts to build a bike with, he's made a cock up somewhere.
I always sit and check everything through with the customer.......and then send them away to return the wrong bits and get the right ones. 🙂

lustyd - Member

most LBS staff are on near min wage.

No wonder - they're turning down free money. How much extra could the staff get with £450 than with £0? Minimum wage is £7.50 so that's 60 hours of staff time paid for or a little bonus for the day.

What would I know though, apparently I'm clueless

Well you've already said you wouldn't pay RRP so that's BS. What "premium" over Rose price would you have paid?

Sorry, I've been busy charging RRP and paying my own wages....

I know you LBS owners, swanning about in your Bentleys and lighting Cuban cigars with £20 notes...

[img] [/img]

Had a really good blether with the owner of the main LBS in the middle of town here (G&G Cycle Centre, Dumfries) about pricing/CRC etc (I build online shops for a living) and he made a big point of them now having the power to get within 10% of anything Shimano branded that's listed on the likes of CRC.

That included anything being ordered in as well, though they can only match what's published & available online. i.e. if you're looking for say, a Zee crankset in a size/make-up that not's popular enough for CRC to list, they can't match the price of the popular model online.

Oh, and they can get pretty much all of it next day too.

Proper game changer for me tbh, 10% on most of the Shimano stuff I buy regularly is neither here nor there for the confidence of knowing it's a) definitely going to fit and b) having zero guilt factor about asking their mechanics to fit it (for a fee, natch) if I can't do it.

We are [b][i]really[/i][/b] quite well spoiled for good bike shops around these parts mind so it may not be the same everywhere.

The time will come when our only local bike shops are halfords! And we will all miss the independent lbs with trained qualified staff.

I don't want to trust my pride and joy to some 16 year old Saturday kid that has learned what to do from some 17 year old kid that's been there slightly longer.

The time will come when our only local bike shops are halfords! And we will all miss the independent lbs with trained qualified staff.

I don't want to trust my pride and joy to some 16 year old Saturday kid that has learned what to do from some 17 year old kid that's been there slightly longer

Not going to happen. There will always be good bike mechanics around, be that bricks and mortar or mobile(man with a van). There's demand for it- just look at your last sentence.

Cokie. I support my lbs.

In return he offers me discount and I keep going back. He even opens late 1 day a week.

Our LBS shut about 6-ish months ago and the lad who used to be the mechanic there is now mobile- he'll collect, service and drop your bike back off to you- and he's really good.

I was offering to fit for free for that as well, so not just "ordering the parts"

That seems a sensible way of offering a discount - doing something an online retailer can't. My LBS is expensive so I don't tend to buy many parts there, but they offer bike fits, fitness coaching and physio. They also lent me a bike FOC when mine was in for repair.

kayla1 - Member
Our LBS shut about 6-ish months ago and the lad who used to be the mechanic there is now mobile- he'll collect, service and drop your bike back off to you- and he's really good.

Skinny Mick?

Went into LBS this morning to enquire about buying an XTR groupo including hubs. Need boost parts and they confirmed they can special order at RRP. On a £1600 parts order, says I, surely some wiggle room given I can get them at normal parts pricing from Europe? Flat no.

Am I being unreasonable, or is it time to let the LBS go out of business? I'm asking to give them money ffs!

I had a similar experience where a LBS refused to move at all on the RRP price even though they were going to have to order it in for me. I went elsewhere.

I don't remember the last time I bought something expensive in an independant shop and didn't get some kind of little freebie / discount. Don't remember asking but typically you get 'ah we'll round it down to x' or 'we'll chuck those in.' Often its a negligable amount /item (a couple of tubes or a few energy bars) but it's a token to show your custom is valued. Seems like that's what the OP was after which is reasonable in my book.

The other issue I have is that if you buy LBS you pay a premium partly because the part comes is a pretty box rather than OEM in bubble wrap. Why? The pretty box is in the bin 10 minutes after the part is fitted so why bother making them and bumping up the price?

most of the customers we see who ask if we price match, when asked to produce the evidence of wonderous cheap parts fail to notice the "out of stock" notice or the fact that the part they have seen for peanuts won't actually fit their bike. we point this out for free, the online store would just send it regardless

any madision enabled shop should be able to price match but
A) it's a complete ball ache to do via the rep and emailling links to various departments
B) madison stock levels are shocking so usually at least one of the parts isn't available for a couple of months (XT brake pads for example)

How often do XTR components go back for warranty?

3 sets of XT brakes in the last month, and a set of SLX that were out of warranty

I suspect given your demeanor on here, they saw an cunning opportunity to never have to deal with you again.

The Op's demeanor seems fine to me and his point is valid.
Some of you guys including those who work in bike shops are missing the point.
A business has overheads and has to generate a specific % profit margin based on turnover to make a profit. What some seem to miss is that if you increase turnover "without" increasing costs your % profit margin can be lower but you might make a greater overall profit.
I reckon the Op's experience perfectly illustrates this and the Lbs has missed out.

I reckon the Op's experience perfectly illustrates this and the Lbs has missed out.

Possibly but he's not said what he would have paid.

The pretty box is in the bin 10 minutes after the part is fitted so why bother making them and bumping up the price?

Shipping? You know exactly how many fit into a bigger box/container. Boxes fit better and look neater on display in a shop as opposed to random sealed bags. Lump a load of bagged components into a box you may lose some small parts if bags are damaged or perhaps a part is broken, incurring costs down the line when x% has to be written off.

I believe Madison now allow bike shops that have an account with them to price match with the likes of CRC

Madison can't control the prices dealers sell at. price fixing incurs huge fines from the EU

even online retailers get moaned at apparently http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/crc-up-to-70-of-end-of-line-etc-etc

Ooh you're mean rocketdog 🙂
I was more complaining about the vaguely misleading email baiting, everyone does it but still annoying.

Of course VAT is worked into that. Surprisingly VAT isn't profit you know. Phhhhh

Ta. I wasn't sure if the groupset was costing you £1160 and the punter was paying £1600 with £266 of that vat leaving you £173 margin. But a margin of £450ish on a £1600 sale is pretty healthy. I'd say for a 'walk in' order/purchase you should be prepared for that to reduce a chunk, especially if its an existing customer you can keep on side in readiness for another RRP purchase at a later date.There's a bit of difference between administering a purchase and 'selling' a product to a punter (talking through a range of options, having the options in stock for them to handle, cajoling and nudging etc) and it doesn't feel unreasonable for that to be reflected in the price. Slippery slope though - does the customer recognise the difference or expect (or their mates who heard what their friend paid expect) a similar discount on more time heavy sales in the future.

10% of something is better than 100% of nothing.

if would help if the Shimano distributor was holding reasonable stock levels of common parts

-waiting 7 weeks for a 52T Ultregra 6800 chainring?

-waiting until 25th July for XT 11-46 11 speed cassette?

Can get these next day from any online retailer (as our customers often have to, we cannot get the stock!)

too many examples recently of big price increases (trade and retail) and dramatically slimmed stock holding, no wonder many LBS struggle = 🙁

I reckon the Op's experience perfectly illustrates this and the Lbs has missed out.

Possibly but he's not said what he would have paid.

The OP's point was that they dismissed any discount out of hand.

I've tried, really I have, but most of them have cocked up catastrophically, not just once but several times to the extent that I just don't trust them to do anything on time and to a reasonable standard. I stopped using the latest one after 2 incidents. The first was servicing my rear suspension but not tightening up any of the bolts afterwards the second was arguing with me that a wheel was built to a reasonable standard as long as it was less than 3mm out of true.

I know there are good ones out there but I'm yet to find them in my current location.

Vat will be a bit under £300 on that sale, so £1600-( £850+£300 ) = £450

You've got input VAT (purchase) to set against the output VAT (sales) so the net VAT payable is on the profit only.

Bought a Super 3R last month from Evans, who price-matched an online deal. So I saved £40 - I paid £160 rather than their listed £200.

My surprise was obvious when walking in to my LBS a week later and seeing it for £150.

Is it just swings and roundabouts? We're talking about overall costs but it's surely supplier-dependent and the LBS can still offer some great deals. In which case it's all a balancing act, just as it is when going to Tesco v. Sainsburys etc.

Forgot this is STW.

Waitrose v. M&S 8)

I think a lot of misconceptions are caused by people thinking they can take what they know of a different business and expect bike shops to be exactly the same.

I response to the the OP's original gripe, the sale of this groupies wouldn't have been jam and the shops running expenses wouldn't have been non-applicable to it any more than they would for any other sale or customer. The business is based around people coming in and asking for things, people needing things fixed and people wanting help buying things. Unless the shop has a fleet they support then there's basically no standard baseline. As PP and others point out, the OEM market hands a bad game to the shops too, allowing extremely discounted stock to make it to online sellers who then sell to the public at prices lower than trade meaning that any price match may well end up in money being lost - which obviously can't happen all the time.

It really is as simple as if we don't use our LBS's they go bust and we don't have them anymore. At some point the Industry is going to have to start being serious about helping them out, though.

I response to the the OP's original gripe, the sale of this groupies wouldn't have been jam and the shops running expenses wouldn't have been non-applicable to it any more than they would for any other sale or customer. 

I'd disagree with this, I'm not really sure how you come to this conclusion regarding a one of high ticket price special order.
I worked in a LBS many years ago. General parts, repairs most bikes in stock had a price and we stuck to that. But if someone came in looking for something special we didn't stock, a deal could be struck. The higher the price the more the boss was pleased, but he'd only be really unhappy if the customer left and bought it somewhere else.
My bosses son runs the business now. Don the owner and my boss, well the last I heard he was enjoying his retirement in Palm Springs.

I am surprised that more LBS do not just adopt a "Sorry we don't stock Shimano" when someone calls up for a supply only spare part. Calling for a supply only is on par with ringing around motor factors trying to get a good deal for car parts.

In today's market I'd suspect most bike shops are better off focussing on new bikes and only ordering parts and charging RRP for them when someone wants a bike fixing by the in house mechanic.

Skinny Mick?

No, the lad's called Jack.

Just for clarity I wasn't asking for a price match and hadn't even asked for discount at the point he said no discussion.

Also I feel a few people may have misunderstood what RRP means. This is the manufacturer recommended price (because price fixing is illegal in EU, US have MSRP which they have to pay). The RRP on an m8000 rear mech is 89.99 for instance. Literally nobody pays that price but the shop still makes good margin. I'm not trying to eat their lunch I'm trying to buy at a fair and reasonable price and to give my local shop the business rather than a German shop. Some of the replies seem to imply that's mean of me, but I think many believe I'm asking for further discount from the shop price (59.99 in the case of the XT mech). I don't ask for discount from the shop prices other than price matching when I find it cheaper and in stock elsewhere. I'd also account for delivery costs in price matching as I want my local shop to succeed. It appears they are less bothered than I am.

Also worth mentioning I do all of my own maintenance and always have. Two of the three bikes I bought in 2016 couldn't change into the small sprocket on delivery despite the shop insisting on a pre delivery check/service. (Different shops to be fair) so I don't trust "pro" mechanics as much as I trust myself. I did work in a bike shop as a mechanic for a while in my youth so not completely out of the loop as far as retail and bike shops go.