[Closed] Supporting LBS

I reckon the Op's experience perfectly illustrates this and the Lbs has missed out.

Possibly but he's not said what he would have paid.

The OP's point was that they dismissed any discount out of hand.

I've tried, really I have, but most of them have cocked up catastrophically, not just once but several times to the extent that I just don't trust them to do anything on time and to a reasonable standard. I stopped using the latest one after 2 incidents. The first was servicing my rear suspension but not tightening up any of the bolts afterwards the second was arguing with me that a wheel was built to a reasonable standard as long as it was less than 3mm out of true.

I know there are good ones out there but I'm yet to find them in my current location.

Vat will be a bit under £300 on that sale, so £1600-( £850+£300 ) = £450

You've got input VAT (purchase) to set against the output VAT (sales) so the net VAT payable is on the profit only.

Bought a Super 3R last month from Evans, who price-matched an online deal. So I saved £40 - I paid £160 rather than their listed £200.

My surprise was obvious when walking in to my LBS a week later and seeing it for £150.

Is it just swings and roundabouts? We're talking about overall costs but it's surely supplier-dependent and the LBS can still offer some great deals. In which case it's all a balancing act, just as it is when going to Tesco v. Sainsburys etc.

Forgot this is STW.

Waitrose v. M&S 8)

I think a lot of misconceptions are caused by people thinking they can take what they know of a different business and expect bike shops to be exactly the same.

I response to the the OP's original gripe, the sale of this groupies wouldn't have been jam and the shops running expenses wouldn't have been non-applicable to it any more than they would for any other sale or customer. The business is based around people coming in and asking for things, people needing things fixed and people wanting help buying things. Unless the shop has a fleet they support then there's basically no standard baseline. As PP and others point out, the OEM market hands a bad game to the shops too, allowing extremely discounted stock to make it to online sellers who then sell to the public at prices lower than trade meaning that any price match may well end up in money being lost - which obviously can't happen all the time.

It really is as simple as if we don't use our LBS's they go bust and we don't have them anymore. At some point the Industry is going to have to start being serious about helping them out, though.

I response to the the OP's original gripe, the sale of this groupies wouldn't have been jam and the shops running expenses wouldn't have been non-applicable to it any more than they would for any other sale or customer. 

I'd disagree with this, I'm not really sure how you come to this conclusion regarding a one of high ticket price special order.
I worked in a LBS many years ago. General parts, repairs most bikes in stock had a price and we stuck to that. But if someone came in looking for something special we didn't stock, a deal could be struck. The higher the price the more the boss was pleased, but he'd only be really unhappy if the customer left and bought it somewhere else.
My bosses son runs the business now. Don the owner and my boss, well the last I heard he was enjoying his retirement in Palm Springs.

I am surprised that more LBS do not just adopt a "Sorry we don't stock Shimano" when someone calls up for a supply only spare part. Calling for a supply only is on par with ringing around motor factors trying to get a good deal for car parts.

In today's market I'd suspect most bike shops are better off focussing on new bikes and only ordering parts and charging RRP for them when someone wants a bike fixing by the in house mechanic.

Skinny Mick?

No, the lad's called Jack.

Just for clarity I wasn't asking for a price match and hadn't even asked for discount at the point he said no discussion.

Also I feel a few people may have misunderstood what RRP means. This is the manufacturer recommended price (because price fixing is illegal in EU, US have MSRP which they have to pay). The RRP on an m8000 rear mech is 89.99 for instance. Literally nobody pays that price but the shop still makes good margin. I'm not trying to eat their lunch I'm trying to buy at a fair and reasonable price and to give my local shop the business rather than a German shop. Some of the replies seem to imply that's mean of me, but I think many believe I'm asking for further discount from the shop price (59.99 in the case of the XT mech). I don't ask for discount from the shop prices other than price matching when I find it cheaper and in stock elsewhere. I'd also account for delivery costs in price matching as I want my local shop to succeed. It appears they are less bothered than I am.

Also worth mentioning I do all of my own maintenance and always have. Two of the three bikes I bought in 2016 couldn't change into the small sprocket on delivery despite the shop insisting on a pre delivery check/service. (Different shops to be fair) so I don't trust "pro" mechanics as much as I trust myself. I did work in a bike shop as a mechanic for a while in my youth so not completely out of the loop as far as retail and bike shops go.

You have still not said what figure they would have had to quote to get your business.

I didn't need to. The price I'm willing to pay doesn't come into this discussion. I might have paid full price if he could justify why I should, but he closed off the conversation immediately and even cut me off mid sentence.
If anyone knows a UK shop who lists XTR boost components please do shout as I still need the full group set aside from BB and pedals! I also need a finishing kit which wasn't included in the £1600 list...

I didn't need to. The price I'm willing to pay doesn't come into this discussion.

It completely comes into it. Because it gives context as to how much profit they 'rejected'.

I might have paid full price if he could justify why I should

On the wider LBS point, I was at my nearest LBS a few weeks ago and spotted the Conti GP4000's I was planning on buying anyway.
£50!!!!! Each!!!!!

So I take one to the till and ask the guy if he can shift on the price. I'd have probably paid £40 for the convenience of walking out with them.

"No sorry!" came the reply.
"Ah ok, I can get them from Decathlon for £30" says I and go to put it back.
"Well I couldn't have got anywhere near that anyway!" he says shirtily.

On the other hand I think Banjo Cycles are actually very good. Funnily enough they gave me a discount on a tyre once too!!!

@convert we'll never know as he wouldn't even start a conversation.

I'll sell you one for 1599.

Do you have one Tom?

@convert we'll never know as he wouldn't even start a conversation.

Sorry I don't believe you. You knew the goods were available for XXX Euro from German before you walked in the shop. You knew the list price and probably knew the LBS were not going to match the German box shifter. You must have had a ball park figure as to what would have had you spending your money in the shop. You are affronted/bemused that they wouldn't get into the haggle.

To be honest for me I know that number would have to be pretty much the German number and I know that that would impossible and almost rude to ask! So I don't even bother.

Nope, buying local is worth something to me. The German price for a crankset is more than the UK price for the crankset as I said earlier in the thread so it's not unreasonable for them to match it but I didn't expect them to. I did expect them to not rip me off and charge full price and I did expect to have a conversation. not haggling, I just wanted to discuss and give them the opportunity to take the business. As it turns out he didn't waste much of my time and immediately declined the business. That confused me, hence the thread.
We quite often get told LBS are struggling and need our support. Now I know why and frankly screw them, I'll order online from someone who lists all the parts (I don't need them to stock them!).
Call me crazy, but with Brexit looming I'd prefer to support UK business but if they don't want my money fair enough.

lustyd - Member

I was the only customer in the shop, even if the profit dropped to £300 that's 300 more than they were making before.

Is this ultimately what you were looking for to give them the business, about 10% discount? Would £1450 have done it for you?

EDIT: just seen this:

lustyd - Member

Nope, buying local is worth something to me. The German price for a crankset is more than the UK price for the crankset as I said earlier in the thread so it's not unreasonable for them to match it but I didn't expect them to. [b]I did expect them to not rip me off and charge full price[/b]

Whilst I don't think asking for 10% is unreasonable, many people (not just you) now appear to think that a business charging RRP is somehow 'ripping you off'. It's an odd sentiment, that.

A conversation would have gone a long way. 10% off RRP might have been good enough, even though that's more than standard retail price. There were only three components on the list that needed discussion so the actual margin may have dropped very little considering I was happy to pay their retail price for most of the group. Now they will get zero pounds, profit or otherwise. This is because I don't just need the parts they list I also need the other three but since I have to shop elsewhere I will reward someone who wants my business enough to not be rude to me.

Haha did you read my clarification of RRP? It's not the price they list, it's the price they "discount" from. £90 for an XT mech which retails at £60 and always has since day one. Find me one person who paid £90 for an XT mech. This is not America, we don't use manufacturer set pricing.

I support my "LBS" whenever I can given I now live 50 miles away. I can't fix my bike and withoit them mostbif the decent local trails wouldn't exist either.

As regular readers know I am a big supporter of local shops and very against cheap online sellers, we are staori g up a major employment / tax shortfall problem. The sort of post below depresses the hell out of me 🙁

We can't really discount stuff like that at all. I'd fit it for free, yes, but you can buy privately for less than the price we can get it from Madison. Until Shimano etc stop shafting us by selling cheap to third parties, this won't change. I get why customers go elsewhere. I do it myself, but the industry is killing the bike shops.

Haha? Not sure what I've missed (other than your odd interpretation of what RRP means).

I'm not in the bike trade, but a [url= http://www.madison.co.uk/products/cycling/transmission-braking-components/rear-derailleurs/rd-m8000-xt-11-speed-shadow-43-design-rear-derailleur-gs-black/ ]quick look here[/url] suggests that £90 is the RRP of an XT rear mech.

The RRP on an m8000 rear mech is 89.99 for instance. Literally nobody pays that price but the shop [b]still makes good margin[/b]

Really? If they are making 40% at £89.99 then at £59.99 then are making £5 margin on the rear mech before costs. Is that good margin to you?

What makes you think it's 40% on the RRP? Also not sure why you think my interpretation is odd, you found the exact same RRP for the mech on the supplier site (them being the only people listing at that price because they are not a shop!)

Pointless thread, just buy from the reputable retailer with the best price.

[b]What makes you think it's 40% on the RRP?[/b] Also not sure why you think my interpretation is odd, you found the exact same RRP for the mech on the supplier site (them being the only people listing at that price because they are not a shop!)

Why do you think it would be higher? If anything I'd guess it would be lower (see PP's post earlier who still works in a shop). To be honest though I think our view of the normal retail price for a shimano component is skewed because most of us only look online at the big box shifting sites. It will be a long long time since I looked at the price of a rear mech in a bricks and mortar shop. I know what CRC/Wiggle/Bike24 etc would sell me that for but also appreciate they are buying it from a totally different supply chain with a different trade price and trading in different volumes.

To think that a shop supplied by madison are 'ripping you off' by charging the madison srp with a conventional (i.e. across a range of different type of retail types) bricks and mortar margin is a bit disingenuous. Uncompetitive for someone just wanting the component without a fitting service maybe but ripping you off, no.

Not looking to turn this into a war of attrition, lusty - I agreed earlier in the thread that I think they could have offered you something, 10% or similar.

A quick Google shows plenty of LBS selling for £89.99 though: Rutland, Plush Hill and Mud Dock all on the first page, with a couple of others Tredz and JE James at 15% off £89.99. I don't know that Madison offer 40% on RRP, it was a round number for the sums. PP on the first page, from a shop, suggested 34% so I might be over estimating.

The last groupset I bought was from Merlin at about 45% off RRP. My LBS couldn't get close and although they wanted the business, they didn't have terms with a supplier which allowed them to compete. They weren't trying to 'rip me off'.

Margin on that XT mech for a bricks and mortar retailer buying aftermarket Shimano from the distributor and selling at RRP in UK is just over 40%

BUT, that's 40% margin before any "costs" (rent/rates/payroll/utilities/back office/etc.) of operating the shop are applied to the calculation

give a small discount, and apply those operating costs, that small profit can quickly disappear or become negative, especially if any warranty is required, or a deal on "free fitting" which is a workshop cost

As I said a couple of pages ago, don't buy groupsets from your LBS.

They don't expect you to and will probably just get all confused if you try.

Get the frame, fork or wheels there instead.

A variation on an old theme. Pick two: price/service/ease

Service & ease - LBS

Price & ease - Online

Price & service? Rare, but when it does exist then it's the LBS and not the online retailer.

Can everyone stop saying "bricks and mortar shop" as though their expenses are worse than a good online retailer? It's 2017, not 2003 and you should all know by now that web is not free and certainly doesn't mean fewer staff or lower costs. A good website costs far more to maintain and run than a building, and online retailers also have to have buildings for their staff and stock. CRC and Wiggle spend a fortune being high volume low margin and good at what they do.

@eyestwice I didn't get service or ease from the LBS. They didn't want to even look up the prices for me let alone sell me the goods!

I don't bother with LBS much these days at all. One of the last times I went in a few years ago, I wanted some components and finishing kit for a frame I already had on order from the same LBS, which was approx same price as I could get it online, which was good, to build up myself.

They didn't hold any of the stuff in stock which was fine, but they took about 90mins fannying about with the ordering system online, quoted me full RRP on everything and worst of all wouldn't order half of it (from one particular supplier) until they had enough orders from other customers to avoid the delivery charge!?! This could be upto to four weeks before they would place the actual order but they wanted the payment there and then!

The muppet got pissed when I told him to forget about it. Ordered it all online for about 70% of the LBS quote and got it delivered free before the end of the week.

BUT, that's 40% margin before any "costs" (rent/rates/payroll/utilities/back office/etc.) of operating the shop are applied to the calculation

Those are all FIXED costs, which are unlikely to be affected to any significant extent by whether or not the shop sells Lustyd the groupset. If they do sell the groupset, the margin will go towards covering those costs/profit. If no sale is made, then those fixed costs will still be incurred by the shop.

So the question for the shop is whether the margin is sufficient to make the sale worthwhile, including the costs/work involved in ordering the parts, a notional allowance for the costs involved in any warranty return (the amount of which depends upon the typical percentage of warranty returns for those products/that manufacturer, i.e. low if highly reliable and high if, say, 1 in 4 generate a warranty return), and the costs of any workshop fitting if applicable*.

* How much of the margin might need to cover workshop costs could depend upon how busy the workshop is: if the workshop is already booked up with paying work, then fitting will reduce the revenue earned by the workshop and the margin on the sale will need to cover that fully or at least substantially.

Since the shop was not very interested in attempting to negotiate a sale to Lustyd, the shop must presumably have plenty of other customers who are more profitable. That's fair enough, but equally it's also fair that Lustyd can buy the groupset for significantly less from an online retailer.

I have to ask, why should LBSs give discount?

You don't walk into the local
"Pint please"
"3.75 please sir"
"Will you take 3.20?"

oh to be a fly on the wall when the box full of components in plastic bags arrives from germany and **** all works because one of the OE parts has different firmware to the rest.