[Closed] Stopped by the Police, cycling- legal?

Troll face

As he wasn't charged/cautioned I doubt he'll make it onto any sort of record that'll get back to his employers.

Sounds like an over zealous copper to me.

at about 11am.

Reason: no lights, dressed in dark clothing.

[img] [/img]

IMO they have close to zero chance of convicting him for being dressed in dark clothes riding at 11am (pm yes with no lights etc)

If I where him I would have got the coppers numbers and made a complaint

Thanks mcobie, it did sound that way to me too- they made a point of taking name, DoB, address, all the rest of it. Which sounded like a caution.

If it had just been advisory then fair enough, but to threaten to charge seems off to me.

Merak- not sure what you mean.

BoardinBob- well, thats what he's telling me, and as I know him and you don't, I'll go with his story, thanks.

BoardinBob- well, thats what he's telling me, and as I know him and you don't, I'll go with his story, thanks.

A fiver says pavement riding or jumping a red light

Maybe they could be out looking for pedestrians at night, walking in the road head to toe in dark clothing instead.

No red lights on this road for many miles- rural Lanarkshire. Or pavements, for that matter.

Would you like a grid ref, let you check it out on Google Maps?

Would you like a grid ref, let you check it out on Google Maps?

Yes please. I'll keep any eye out for him on the way home. 😉

From the Highway Code:

Rule 60

At night your cycle MUST have white front and red rear lights lit. It MUST also be fitted with a red rear reflector (and amber pedal reflectors, if manufactured after 1/10/85). White front reflectors and spoke reflectors will also help you to be seen. Flashing lights are permitted but it is recommended that cyclists who are riding in areas without street lighting use a steady front lamp.

Note the "MUST", basically there's a law to back it up. So they could have charged (it's not up to the police to "convict") him under the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations but decided to let him off with a warning.

Tell him not to be a d*ck and get some lights.

dunno i got pulled over on the a92 riding home from uni on my TT bike mid afternoon with lights and a high vis vest on

No red lights were jumped or pavements ridden on.

his argument was it was illegal to ride on the road when there was a a cyclepath adjacent*

i had a similar outcome to your mate.

*While i admit it probably isnt clever i wasnt prepared to risk a near new set of tubs on that shambles of a cycle path & i was riding along at a fair clip which would just be dangerous on a shared use path..

Edit: White stone - last i checked we dont live in the arctic circle and thus its not dark at 11am.

Thanks mcobie, it did sound that way to me too- they made a point of taking name, DoB, address, all the rest of it. Which sounded like a caution.

No, if he was being charged, they'd have told him he was being charged with X offence, and would be cautioned. That info asked for is the standard info when you're stopped by the police.

He hasn't committed a crime, if any officer was insane enough to charge him with something then the PF would throw it out. He should also make a complaint.

Real policeman or plastic plod?

Tell him not to be a d*ck and get some lights.

At 11am?

It is allowed to tell a police officer to stop being a moron. Or, the way I've phrased it is "why not phone a superior for advice before you really embarrass yourself".

whitestone - Member
From the Highway Code:

Rule 60

At night your cycle MUST have white front and red rear lights lit. It MUST also be fitted with a red rear reflector (and amber pedal reflectors, if manufactured after 1/10/85). White front reflectors and spoke reflectors will also help you to be seen. Flashing lights are permitted but it is recommended that cyclists who are riding in areas without street lighting use a steady front lamp.

Note the "MUST", basically there's a law to back it up. So they could have charged (it's not up to the police to "convict") him under the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations but decided to let him off with a warning.

Tell him not to be a d*ck and get some lights

Oops! Missed that. Still it's Scotland and never gets light (runs for cover!)

Maybe they could be out looking for pedestrians at night, walking in the road head to toe in dark clothing instead.

They do.

I once overtook a panda car doing about 30 on a DC in a built up area, assuming this meant something was up I slowed down and paid a bit more attention.

Sure enough a mile up the road there's a (presumably drunk) guy dressed in black walking down the road. He's doing nothing specifically illegal either, although I'm sure there's some nuisance they can charge him with if necessary.

Sounds like an over zealous copper to me.

Ben, from my reading, Police can't ask for your name or address if they've just stopped you to give you some advice- they can only do this if they intend to caution or charge.

I might be wrong, I'm neither a cop nor a lawyer.

A police officer can stop and question you in the street or any public place if you are suspected of either committing an offence or the officer believes that you have witnessed a possible offence.

If you are stopped and questioned, you are expected to be co-operative. If asked to do so, you must give your name, address, date and place of birth and nationality to the officer. If you give false information you are committing an offence.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/scotland/law-and-rights/legal-system-s/police-s/police-powers-s/

no its standard practice for the police officer to ask name and address - you are under no obligation to give it unless your being formally charged/cautioned.

Ah, I see- so they can ask. Thanks TR.

Ben, sorry, will read through that.

no its standard practice for the police officer to ask name and address - you are under no obligation to give it unless your being formally charged/cautioned.

Not true I'm afraid - failing to provide information is an offence.

Plus, it's a red flag to a bull with a police officer who wants to throw their weight around.

I'm sure there is something he's not telling you, although this does come to mind...

http://www.bikehub.co.uk/news/judge-condemns-cycling-to-an-uncertain-future/

Maybe the local Pollis were looking for someone fitting his description and just wanted to check him out?

I'm sure there is something he's not telling you, although this does come to mind...

http://www.bikehub.co.uk/news/judge-condemns-cycling-to-an-uncertain-future/
br />

Overturned by appeals court anyway - [url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/shropshire/6303427.stm ]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/shropshire/6303427.stm[/url]

Have that bookmarked on phone if I ever need to prove that point again.....

Although that was overturned b r

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/shropshire/6303427.stm

EDIT: Damn! Too late again!

You certainly don't have to give your name and address to police in England. From those bastions of Policing standards the Met (in relation to stop and search or stop and account)...

"The police officer will ask for your name and address and date of birth. You do not have to give this information if you don’t want to, unless the police officer says they are reporting you for an offence."

http://content.met.police.uk/Article/Frequently-Asked-Questions/1400009364853/1400009364853

Law is clearly different in Scotland (which Ben's link was referring to). Different rules apply in the case of a vehicle stop, where you do have to. I doubt stopping a cyclist counts as a vehicle stop, but if they were traffic police that may be the line they were taking.

[I]Although that was overturned b r[/I]

Yes, I know.

But only after an awful lot of effort, and grief for the cyclist.

Yes, one of the things different about Scottish law is you do have to provide details. On the plus side, if you're arrested and say "no comment" then that can't be held against you.

plod has been told to get some names and details in his log book probably for an assesment, makes them look as if theyre actively patroling,

I'm aware from the 'other' activities you get into, Ben, that there may have been times you've had to provide details, so you'll doubtless know the position more than anyone- and yes, this was of course Scotland.

Only been charged the once, and the Procurator Fiscal threw that out. I caused "alarm and distress" to BAE Systems 😀

If the police suspect you of committing an offence, or if they think you are a potential witness to an offence, you have to give them your name, address, dob, place of birth and nationality, and they can arrest you if you don't. Section 13 of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995. Then there's some bits of the Road Traffic Act under which you to give your name and address and dob. But other than that you don't.

and amber pedal reflectors, if manufactured after 1/10/85

I'm sure we're all rocking these... Is this why bikes come with no pedals?

[quote=thegreatape ]If the police suspect you of committing an offence, or if they think you are a potential witness to an offence, you have to give them your name, address, dob, place of birth and nationality, and they can arrest you if you don't.

Assuming all is as cody's mate described though, there was no reason for him to give his details, as any offence the plod might have suspected him of was totally fabricated. Plod might have thought he was committing an offence and therefore required to give details, but he was wrong. Personally if I was pulled over and told that (in England, Wales or Scotland) I'd refuse to give my details on point of principle - I'd give plod the benefit of the advice that if he wants to arrest me for not committing any offence he's lining himself up for a whole heap of shit to fall on him.

Bike thieves posing as Polis ?? :O

If you buy a bike without pedals, legally speaking it's an incomplete bike and as such is not required to come with reflectors of any kind, frame mount, wheel mount or otherwise.

If I where him I would have got the coppers numbers and made a complaint

+1

as far as i can recall you are under no obligation to give personal details to the police in a "stop and account" or a "stop and search" unless they are reporting/arresting you for an offence.
they are however obliged to give you a receipt stating the reason they stopped you and asked for your details....you should always ask for a receipt. they wont tell you that you are allowed to ask for this because the paperwork pisses them off.

I thought that if you were suspected of committing an offence, then they have to tell you what offence they suspect you of? If not, then in the situation described i'd be asking exactly what it was, and making notes on my phone of the officer's number and name, all as politely as possible. I'm also someone who would not want to compromise my employment with something silly, but I realise this isn't going to happen with something at the roadside just by having my address taken. Also, the situation itself sounds very odd, and I wouldn't accept a PC trying to throw their weight around like that, without a proper (polite) discussion on why they have taken that view and chosen to enforce it in that manner.

If you buy a bike without pedals, legally speaking it's an incomplete bike and as such is not required to come with reflectors of any kind, frame mount, wheel mount or otherwise.

This, and this is why OEM bikes with SPD's have crappy reflectors built in, or attached to a platform that clips in making the pedals nigh on unuseable

The OP's friend should have told the PC that he was a 'Freeman of the Land' - that tends to smooth things over in situations like this 🙂

his argument was it was illegal to ride on the road when there was a a cycle path adjacent

That's complete BS - you are under no obligation to ride on a cycle path!

Rule 63 of the HC: "...Use of cycle lanes is not compulsory and will depend on your experience and skills, but they can make your journey safer..."

maccruiskeen - Member

The OP's friend should have told the PC that he was a 'Freeman of the Land' - that tends to smooth things over in situations like this

Definitely this!

In my experience the police have little or no knowledge of the law when it regards... well most stuff. A police-lady on a bike stopped me and issued me a FPN for not giving way to her as I left a car park, crossing a bike lane as I did so. Thing is, she was a good 20-30m away as I left, oh and was riding on a pavement, not a cycle lane. Despite me attempting to educate her on the difference between pavement and cycle lane she wouldn't have any of it. Needless to say the FPN was dropped.

They threatened to charge him,

By they I assume there was more than one police officer involved ? we have to take the OP's word that he's accurately repeating the conversation he had with his friend, but I can't believe there was two police officers in the same place at the same time, that think it's illegal to ride a bicycle in daylight without lights, and wearing dark clothing 😯 😯 . I've never heard such a thing from even the most Neanderthal of bike haters. Let alone trained police officers !!

I had a similar experience to trail_rat on the A50 in Leicestershire. Dual carriageway, copper drove next to me, wound down passenger window and told me it was illegal to ride on dual carriageway and that I should be on the cyclepath (there isn't one at that particular point). We had a bit of an argument. He told me point blank to get off.
I tried to complain to the force but, apparently, they have no idea who was driving and I couldn't see his number.

That's complete BS - you are under no obligation to ride on a cycle path!

Rule 63 of the HC: "...Use of cycle lanes is not compulsory and will depend on your experience and skills, but they can make your journey safer..."

Indeed, but police officers dont listen.

Worth noting that in holland it is how ever compulsory.

To be fair right or wrong of the police I can't understand why so many people wear dark clothes, making themselves much harder to see... maybe it makes them look slimmer but I don't think its particularly clever whether at day or night. Its the all black castelli brigade that really piss me off!

@trailrat

I had a similar experience on CS3 super highway in London a few weeks back during evening commute.

work colleague and I riding along Cable Street parallel with CS3. Coppers were stopping traffic at a junction. We were both lit up with flashing bright lights. We slowed right down, and I rode slowly around them about 8 feet from nearest Policeman.

He says "Oi, green hat come here" (I was wearing a bright green Giro MTB helmet).

I go over and he basically told me I should be using the cycle path (CS3) instead of the road. I asked him to inform me of the law about this and he could not.

I told him the cycle path was unsafe as a few 100m back we nearly had a collision with a motorist who turned across CS3 with no warning, and then nearly a head on with a cyclist riding with no lights on the wrong side of the path, which is why we moved onto the road itself.

I asked him whey they were not stopping cyclists with no lights riding past them, or motorists failing to indicate or give priority to cycle path users at clearly marked junctions

He could not accept this, and kept telling me I had no right to be on the road when a cycle path was provided

I actually quoted the highway code to him that I am entitled to use the highway when any cycle path is unsafe, and that I also have a "right of way" to use a bicycle on the highway. He could not accept this, kept arguing with me and calling me "Geez...".

Mind boggle when those supposed to be upholding the law have no clue?

I've asked police before about the ASL law when witnessing traffic offences right next to them at traffic lights during the "operation safeway" events in London and I've never had the correct answer from any of them...

the all black castelli brigade that really piss me off!

😀

*waves*

The OP's friend should have told the PC that he was a 'Freeman of the Land' - that tends to smooth things over in situations like this

"AM I BEING DETAINED?"

"AM I FREE TO GO?"

😆

Anyone else watched that Panorama Met police corruption documentary on BBC the other night? I try to stay out of the way of plod.

Come up to Scotland, we don't do any of that Met style pish up here. No Sir, no nobbers in Police Scotland 🙂

Night off road rides of mine sometimes drift onto road at times, but last thing you want to do is be all in hi-viz and reflectors everywhere when you hit the singletrack with tens of thousands of lumens blazing away behind you. How to piss off your riding group 😀

Thankfully it's quick and easy to dive off the road up paths and head for the nearest bit of woodland and park if the cops are about 😉

Now that is weird, I was pootling along up a country lane in the middle of nowhere this afternoon when as if by magic a POLICE car drew along side me 2 up and the passenger with his window down asked me what light i had on the back as you can see it from a fair distance, So i took the oportunity to grab onto the B Pillar and pass pleasantrys for a bit, The driver asked if cars gave you a wide berth with it on? so i said yes they treat you a bit more Special, The passenger said it was a good idea to have them on in daylight especially so nowadays as most cars have either LED daytime lights or drivers put the lights on.

Both Coppers seemed alright, probably both cyclists, they asked how far i was doing and if i was on STRAVA, where i'd set off from etc etc. I was also in BLACK from head to toe, Helmet, Jacket, BAGGY Shorts over my BLACK Howies LYCRA.............

AMBULANCE Drivers on the other hand, Jeeeesus........... what a bunch of Jobsworths, One actually tried to tell me off, asking how i would feel if i had to go round scraping up Cyclists after accidents! I wouldn't mind but he nearly ****in knocked me off.

Come up to Scotland, we don't do any of that Met style pish up here. No Sir, no nobbers in Police Scotland

That's 'cos we've got [url=

Polis[/url] 😀

My experiences with Strathclyde's finest is that they've been friendly but not the world's most intellectual thinkers.

I had a cop on a motorbike stop me back in 1995 to congratulate me on my "fantastic light" (50W home made halogen beast)

Medical folk are quite ready to give their opinions on the merits of helmets. They become experts at knowing for sure that you wouldn't have survived without one, and then proceed to talk about people they've scraped up who weren't wearing one.

Back in my unicycling days I was out for a ride (Mountain Mayhem training!) going up a steep pavement next to a road when a police car stopped in front; I thought I was going to get a rollocking for riding on the pavement but the guy just wanted to see if I could get back on on such a steep hill! Cheeky bugger.

We try and confine our dimmer brethren to the central belt Ben, where they can be closely supervised and not have to think for themselves too often 🙂

Never answer their questions!

...and he basically told me I should be using the cycle path (CS3) instead of the road...

Reason: no lights, dressed in dark clothing. They threatened to charge him, but instead, just took his details, and warned him that they 'didn't want to see him cycling dressed like that again or he'd be convicted'. Of what, they wouldn't say. Thoughts/comments?

There's nothing they could charge him with. Tell him that if they do take any action he should contact [url= http://www.cyclistsdefencefund.org.uk/ ]CDF[/url].

I can't understand why so many people wear dark clothes, making themselves much harder to see... maybe it makes them look slimmer but I don't think its particularly clever whether at day or night. Its the all black castelli brigade that really piss me off!

Dark clothes don't make you much harder to see.

I go over and he basically told me I should be using the cycle path (CS3) instead of the road. I asked him to inform me of the law about this and he could not.

I know that one. It's mental when it's busy, and there are loads of entrances on it. Ought to be one-way contraflow really - the road is hardly busy and has enough space. I don't blame you for using the road.

@molgrips

this is a typical CS3 cycling experience. riding at a reasonable pace in bright daylight, ambulance pulls out across the cycle lane without looking causing cyclists to nearly crash in said ambulance - maybe he was touting for business?

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another typical experience - vehicles illegally parked on CS3

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and this lovely Veolia garbage truck using CS3 to collect dustbins.

[img] [/img]

the driver directly caused a young women on a bike to crash, then told other cyclists helping her up to "F*ck off" then became very aggressive, before getting back in and continuing to drive along CS3 stoping periodically. Police were called, driver arrested

We try and confine our dimmer brethren to the central belt Ben, where they can be closely supervised and not have to think for themselves too often

True story: My parents' house was broken into when they were away, taking their car and loads of things, the burglars were caught almost immediately when their neighbour spotted them unloading the stolen car.

Police got me to drive the car back home, and then the detectives told me to get all the valuable stuff back inside. Then one of them said "hang on, SoC will have to photograph the car boot", so we put everything back in the car boot for the photographs 😀

driver arrested

😆

Worth noting that in holland it is how ever compulsory.

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[img] [/img]