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Please, please help my modest bank balance and fragile marriage by stopping me from buying a KM... or maybe u should talk me into it! 😉
N+1 so that I can N-2 the do it all bike. Was planning on running the KM with mudguards for a very short commute on skinny 29ers, dropping the guards for gravel duties, adding 27.5+ for bike packing duties and then adding a 130mm fork for singletrack. All of which could be interchangeable with something like a SantaCruz Tallboy (that I also have an eye on). Here's the thinhs tho, £800!!!
That's a lot for a KM frameset, I have everything for the build apart from the frame now, I could do cyclescheme I guess but is there something cheaper, better more likely to find secondhand?
Must be boost, 15mm front bolt and 12mm rear, accept 27.5+ and 29er, capable of what is described above and potentially share a 130mm fork with a full suss bike. I've got a few ideas from endless searching but don't want to pollute anyone's thinking with them. Are there no small UK brands/independent builders doing something like this?
Not checked the spacing but Brother cycles Big Bro?
That said ‘Buy the Surly’ (biased as I am a huge Surly fan)
Sonder Frontier might do it, bar the 130mm fork, it seems set up for 100mm fork. There will be a steel version of the Sonder Signal at some point but you'd likely have to source rigid forks.
Similar to the Sonder Signal is the Genesis Tarn, that used to come with a rigid fork.
That said, the KM frameset seems really versatile... I'd like one too!
DO NOT BUY A KARATE MONKEY
On One Scandal frame? It's currently on offer with a carbon fork for £300, and designed around a 120-130mm fork.
I have one, a 2018 model, bought as a frameset to go with some tyres I already owned.
It’s a great bike, mine is built up with 2x10 slx/xt stuff, hope wheels.
The only real negative I have found is the rear rack, basically the only one that will fit properly is the surly one which costs £170.
I’d buy another.
Genesis Tarn. You can find framesets on offer in various places. If you're lucky you might pick up a 2018 frameset which included a carbon fork. If not, they sometimes come up on ebay or add a chinese carbon fork of your choosing.
Used to be a big Surly fan, had 5 of them over the years, but as of now I can't think of a single thing the KM does a cheaper alternative won't do just as well, or even better (like anything to do with a suspension fork)
Genesis Tarn is one that slipped by me, it's a good shout but very small front triangle for bike packing. Some nice deals out there tho!
P7 29er?
STEEL BIKES ARE SHIT.
Do you really want to share forks between bikes?
How much do you gain with a rigid fork over a suspension fork
The world is full of really cheap used 29res. You could then just swap to a rigid fork if that really is a deal breaker
£800 for a factory made steel frame. Really!
Plus they're heavy
I love my 2005 frame KM, non boost, actually non quite a lot of modernity, it’s been through many iterations and a keeper. Heavy to pick up but has always felt light on the trail and fun to ride. Sure there are plenty of other options out there that are great too and I would be tempted with a later frame at the right price however the bike feels right, well maybe those Stooge Junkers bars next... happy riding 🙂
On One Scandal frame? It’s currently on offer with a carbon fork for £300, and designed around a 120-130mm fork.
Would be seriously tempting if I didn't already have one!
I had an El-Mariachi, basically the KM's posher cousin. it was nice, but not £800 nice. TBH it was barely £500 for the full bike s/h nice. I sold it and bought a charge cooker for 1/4 the price.
Steel frames have their advantages, although post CEN they're mostly things like being tough rather than any "steel is real" zing/pop/fairy dust/flex.
Was planning on running the KM with mudguards for a very short commute on skinny 29ers, dropping the guards for gravel duties, adding 27.5+ for bike packing duties and then adding a 130mm fork for singletrack.
That sounds like a lot of work. 3 sets of wheels, three cassettes, three chains (because they won't wear out evenly), for what +/- 1mph speed difference over the 29er? You don't need 27.5+ for bikepacking, you don't need skinny tyres for gravel (unless your racing), you don't need a rigid bike for anything other than "because you can" and "because you're skint or a cheapsakate". If you're going to the expense of buying a suss fork, and the effort of taking it on and off, you've completely defeated the point of a rigid bike (cheap and doesn't need maintenance).
For what you describe, you want "a bike". Don't let the Surly marketing convince you that their "a bike" is somehow better than others, just because they actively market it as "just a bike that'll do anything", what it sounds like you want is the archetypal "bike" from anyone like Scott, Cube, On-One etc. They'll all sell you a full bike for £800, and they'll probably be lighter too.
@thisisnotaspoon, I agree that perhaps post CEN frames are less flexy/zingy and for my own part when it came to choose between the monkey and an on one 456 the monkey won it hands down - just a much nicer frame (pre CEN). Aside from that I do like the Surly ethos, if I had the means I’d have a few more of them...
They are heavy and overpriced don't bother.
An entire (and similar) bike for £95 more than the Surly frame Genesis Longitude
I paid £250 for my frame 2nd hand in 2008 in perfect nick and it still is... I haven't seen many up for sale since then so I guess most that buy them hold on to them, heavy as they are...
Always liked the look of Surly's and they make great single speed chainrings but in the UK they look overpriced and specs are pretty basic. Rode a Karate Monkey one time, I didn't like it. Buy something a bit more special like a Stooge or something much cheaper like an On-one.
What year did the CEN regs come in? As my 2010 Cotic Soul and 2015 Richey Logic ride like a dream but my 2015 Genesis Croix de fer 2016 Stooge are both very stiff so I'm guessing around 2015?
I do like the Surly [s]ethos[/s] marketing.
Surly have cultivated a cool, beardy, slightly hippy look, all the time being part of QBP - one of the largest volume bike companies on the planet. We do owe them a massive debt of gratitude for leading on some niche products (eg Fatbikes and Plus)
As highlighted already, there are countless frames available that will do the same job better and at less cost. If you are buying because of the brand, go ahead. Just don't pretend to yourself that it's anything else.
Can’t comment on the stooge, although do like the look of them and the handlebars are great. Would say that the 456 felt dead in comparison with the karate Monkey. Should qualify this with not having ridden more recent KM frames...
I don't just mean the 'brand' I mean their frames look nice, are built to last plus I like that they can take bigger tyres and lots racks. Just too expensive and too heavy.
are built to last
No more so than other brands. I've seen a few cracked Surly frames.
@didnthurt don’t think they’re heavy for what they are and agree they are expensive but hey most of
the stuff we lust after is... just saying that the KM I have is a great bike and I intend
to hold onto it...
Ridiculously priced in my opinion. The bronze lacquer on the KM Ops is the nicest finish on a bike I’ve ever seen though. Get a Stooge, they’re ace and price is decent.
The bronze ops frame is the only one I’d change to, I think it is translucent and you can see the welds, happy to entertain any offers...
What year did the CEN regs come in?
1st January 2010
I would buy a stooge actually, but not boost so bust
It’s mostly been said so far and I agree. If had £750 to throw at a bikepacking/MTB 29er frameset then I’d be looking at something a bit more finessey for the dosh
Bombtrack Beyond + ADV 2019
I was tempted by that bombtrack but it's still a fair skelp o' cash - is it better than a KM - carbon fork make much difference here? I found a KM for £705, even at that... Maybe I have been talked out of it? I think I might just go straight to the full sus.
I wouldn't bother buying a new one, far too expensive for what it is.
On One Bootzipper is quarter of the price for frame and fork and is steel, boost, probably the same weight. But you can't put suspension on it without ****ing it up. Not sure about mudguards either
https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/FROOBZ29/on-one-bootzipper-29er-mountain-bike-frameset
I'd really like.something like the KM, ECR or Bombtrack - a proper 29plusser which will take 3" tyres.
Options are a bit limited especially to a £1000 budget - even 2nd hand.
I've sourced some used rabbit hole rims and knards, plan is to buy a used 'slim' fatbike (143/170) and just get the wheels rebuilt.
Looking for a Ritchey Commando to use as base ideally!
OP get the KM you know you want to!
I think I might just go straight to the full sus.
Haha - I know it makes no sense!
I have the wheels (29er + 27.5+) but can't decide whether or not to go for something like the KM or Tallboy.
You're thinking of paying £800 for a frame made of very cheap pig iron scaffold pipe, that sells for about £500 in the USA, that isn't particularly interesting, that weighs a tonne, that has graphics drawn by an eight year old in 1997, that has geometry from a decade ago, when you could have so many other things that are better for less money?
Don't buy it.
was tempted by that bombtrack but it’s still a fair skelp o’ cash – is it better than a KM – carbon fork make much difference here?
Fair Q, and I’ve never ridden one, just liked the look of it and thought the forks would bring the weight down. But then I read a review* of the 2019 Beyond+ ADV and it seems that 2 and half grand buys a build that comes in around the same weight as a stock -build Genesis Longitude, which comes in at less than half that price (Less than half again for barely-used examples.
I didn’t at first recommend Longitude framseset partly because that’s what I have and hence biased, and partly I imagined it would be somewhat heavier than the Bombtrack.
In fact my Longitude is a slightly lighter build than that reviewed BB Adv and yet it came in at the same price new.
* https://off.road.cc/content/review/bikes/bombtrack-beyond-adv-review-3253
So, throw a Longitude in the mix (forget bouncers and go plus) and then buy your full sus gnarpoon instead, and then soon get buyer’s regrets on the commute and wish you bought a KM, and so then sell gnarpoon at loss, buy KM after all, and then wish you’d bought two used bikes because you can’t really afford the new bike/s that you want and, but look I have parts lying about. Welcome to my world 😉
The Bootzipper looks similar to a Longitude except for rear dropouts.
I’m sticking with the Longitude for now BTW. Great bike for doing loads of stuff on a bike.
that has geometry from a decade ago,
Whilst I love modern geometry on FS MTBs or things used for technical riding, I don't think it makes sense for the kind of bike a KM would be. If you want to cover lots of ground efficiently and positively then steep angles work better IMO. And when run rigid, fork dive isn't an issue so you can lean on the front a lot more, and you aren't at risk of OTB.
What @scotroutes said!
Plus buy the tallboy first, you will forget about the km itch for a while.
By that time, you will have less money and end up buying a 2nd hand on one scandal/genesis tarn or longitude off the classifieds for a bargain.
So, throw a Longitude in the mix (forget bouncers and go plus) and then buy your full sus gnarpoon instead, and then soon get buyer’s regrets on the commute and wish you bought a KM, and so then sell gnarpoon at loss, buy KM after all, and then wish you’d bought two used bikes because you can’t really afford the new bike/s that you want and, but look I have parts lying about. Welcome to my world 😉
Ha ha! This is extremely familiar to me!! 🤣🤣
Fair Q, and I’ve never ridden one, just liked the look of it and thought the forks would bring the weight down. But then I read a review* of the 2019 Beyond+ ADV and it seems that 2 and half grand buys a build that comes in around the same weight as a stock -build Genesis Longitude, which comes in at less than half that price (Less than half again for barely-used examples.
I wouldn't argue it's worth 2x the price, but the Bombtrack does look significantly better than the Genesis to me (and I've always had a thing for Genesis bikes). It's running proper 29+ next to the Longitude's skinny 27+ tyres, and it's still nearly a kg lighter. Plus it comes with Jones bars, which cost a fair bit.
And has the Longitude got a dropper unfriendly 27.2mm seat tube?
I saw one on the Beyond+ in the flesh recently and it is rather nice...
^ Fair point/ish I wasn’t perfectly comparing like for like, ie my Longitude is Mk1 (29+)
Genesis stock build tested at 13kg
https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/bikes/mountain-bikes/genesis-longitude-review/?image=1&type=gallery&gallery=0&embedded_slideshow=0
Last years BB+ADV tested
At 13.6kg, it's definitely not a lightweight bike for its asking price...
https://off.road.cc/content/review/bikes/bombtrack-beyond-adv-review-3253
The 2020 comparison of both bikes as listed shows about 700g going on the Longitude and same amount offthe BB+ADV. Soooo..they better be some very good carbon forks for that 700g per £1500 ! I think it would be fair to assume that the higher build spec on the BB ADV+ would be making up some (half?) of the 700g weight savings? I don’t really think there is a difference when you account for the fact they are both really 30lb bikes give or take depending on build/1x vs 2x
But you got me on the 27.2MM seatpost size 😝
And the Jones bars. I got the On Ones and saved enough for some decent mudguards and a front light!
Is the longitude boost (or half boost) I thought the forks were 100mm for some reason but can't find the spacing on the latest frame.
Ah, probably 100mm(it’s QR), of course. Back in my box I go. for more quiet senior moments...
The Surly Long Haul Trucker has always bemused me. Again weirdly expensive for such a basic bike. You could just buy an 80's Dawes Galaxy at a car boot sale and have pretty well the same bike.
The Surly Long Haul Trucker has always bemused me
To understand the brilliance of the LHT you need to make it carry as much weight as possible and give it some abuse and then be amazed with just how well it rides and how much hammer it takes.
Not sure a 40 year old dawes galaxy could take the same. I'm sure the km is built just as well as a LHT
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Yea, you're right there should really be much less in it cash wise, though I am surprised the weight difference is so small, unless 29+ really is that much heavier than 27+.
And the Jones bars. I got the On Ones and saved enough for some decent mudguards and a front light!
They're a daft price... if I was buying the Bombtrack I'd probably sell the Loops and buy the On One copies and a Brand-x dropper with the cash...
walleater
The Surly Long Haul Trucker has always bemused me. Again weirdly expensive for such a basic bike. You could just buy an 80’s Dawes Galaxy at a car boot sale and have pretty well the same bike.
But that's the beauty of a well built steel bike. If it has been looked after, you're just a coat of new paint away from having it as good as new.
The point of the Surly is that in 2, 5, 10 years time it will still be a good bike (assuming basic care). That gives plenty time to amortise its cost. Most Surly owners hang on to their bikes.
Say you keep the frame 3 years and then throw it away, then it's cost you £0.73 per day. That's cheaper than the daily sprinkles on a hipster coffee (and you won't be throwing it away 🙂 ).
Better still, buy one secondhand because the frame will be just as good.
One of my friends has one and it's now got quite a few years on it. It still looks good and it's had quite a battering offroad as well as some reasonable tours.
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As far as the KM is concerned, the same can be said. It's a decent bike and is the sort of thing you buy as a keeper.
There's quite a few other decent steel bikes out there as well though. For example, in KM territory is the Singular Swift or Gryphon.
It's weird that a company hasn't just copied the Surly frames and then sold them cheaper than the Surly equivalent, after all a basic cro-molly frame can't be expensive to build.
Do we have a list of Karate Monkey alternatives then?
Sonder Frontier
Genesis Tarn
Genesis Longitude
On One Scandal
On One Bootzipper
Stooge Mk 1, 2, 3, 4
Singular Swift
I dont think any of those are 29 x 3" capable. Some not even 27.5 x 2.8"
Better list Here but some USA only.
Big Brother
I dont think any of those are 29 x 3″ capable. Some not even 27.5 x 2.8″
The tyre clearance for a Karate Monkey is:
27.5 x 3.0”
29 x 2.5"
https://surlybikes.com/bikes/karate_monkey
It's the Krampus that does 29+
Oops my bad ☺