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I’ve got the Curtis XR29. It is indeed a beautiful thing. Climbs incredibly well. Very stable. It is also the longest bike I’ve ever owned by some miles.
or design and build it yourself
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/building-a-custom-bike-frame-at-home.html
If I only had the welding skills..........
@yoluka I am starting to get serious lust for that Curtis XR29
My SwitchFS is a thing of beauty..... Unfortunately since getting my ebike it's gathering dust in the shed 😞
Cotic will always be around and have good support in the UK. I have tried most Cotics and they ride really well. I would beef up a flaremax and call it probably one of the best bikes for the UK. It would be close to a Norco Optic for just rapidness up and down. The fastest steel all round, best for ride feel/comfort FS I have been on is probably the Morph 29er from Guildford. It is just a rocket. Uses 2 bearings like an orange. 142mm rear can be setup with a 140, 150 or 160mm fork with a 3way flip chip.
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@Jordan. Mine was Vital’s Bike of the Day a couple of months ago. It was like my birthday! Haven’t been that excited for years. DM me if you are serious about one and want to have a proper look and ride. I’m in Berks. I think there were only 3 in existence when I took delivery in Jan this yr.
@yoluka Only 3! No wonder I couldn't find any reviews. Cheers for the offer but unfortunately I am at the other end of the country. What size is yours and have you measured the wheelbase? The geo chart doesn't give the ETT for some reason although I'm sure I could work it out from the reach, stack and seat tube angle if I get my head around it.
What happens to the warranty if your boutique custom builder folds?
Aidy from Swarf is keeping all his frame making gear so he can deal with any warranty problems.
Firstly, what do you want from a steel frame?
If you're looking for a softer ride feel and the potential to ride very fast, I think Starling offer the best combination of quality, geometry, after-sales support and looks.
They are arguably the most recognised and respected steel FS bikes and won't be going out of business any time soon. And they ride amazing.
If you want a bit of a softer ride feel than most carbon or alu, but closer to mainstream, Cotic bikes are very nice to ride too. Just a bit less "special" in both the finishing and how they ride.
I was looking at production privee but the taxes for bringing it into the country make it a no.
It'd be much less expensive if I was one of my Irish cousins but none of them ride bikes.
You need a Brooklyn Machine Works Rubber Duck.
Having owned three (or 4) of steel full sus bikes, I’d go with a brand who have long established model(s) where they’ve had time to refine them to sort any previous quirky design/manufacturing issues - Cotic being an obvious brand (& IME their aftermarket support is excellent).
I was looking at production privee but the taxes for bringing it into the country make it a no.
It’d be much less expensive if I was one of my Irish cousins but none of them ride bikes.
DD Cycles are UK based suppliers
YouEveryone needs a Brooklyn Machine Works Rubber Duck.
FTFY
Firstly, what do you want from a steel frame?
This could get a bit long winded but you did ask 🙂
Ride feel/comfort is definately a major factor. Currently riding a carbon HB130 and I love many things about it but I do feel a lot of trail chatter through it. The Ohlins suspension with it's stock tune was part of that so I had a softer tune done which helped a bit but there is still a lot of chatter there so I came to the conculsion that it is just the nature of the beast. I have fond memories from many years ago when I went from a cheap, very stif heavy steel framed hardtail to a Kona Explosif frame so I guess I am a bit looking for a repeat of that "Aah" moment.
Longevity, there I said it! I know there are many arguments for and against this. One of the main being "who expects a mtb to last a long time?". Well, I do. Or at least I try to get as long as I can out of them. Mainly because I don't have much spare cash to chuck at this hobby but also because I am no fan of consumerism. My previous bike was a 2006 Stumpy which I would possibly still be riding now if I hadn't won the HB in the DBC. Although I admit I had been looking around to see what used, more modern geo frames I could afford when that amazing win came along. I am of a certain age now where I don't think I have too many years of serious riding left in me and the right frame could quite well see out my riding life now. When the HB came along I thought "this is it" but is it? The possibility of serious damage has always been a bit of a worry to me. I know carbon fibre is a very tough material but there are some local trails that I regularly ride where if I part company with the bike there is a very real chance that it is going to clatter some pretty serious rocks and even if it looks undamaged there will be the worry of unseen internal damage afterwards. Any damage to a steel frame should be easilly seen and hopefully much more affordable to repair. Having said that, the time it is taking me to recover from my last riding injury is making me seriously reconsider the amount of risk I am willing to take, so as long as I don't get carried away(which I am a bit prone to doing) the chances of that happening could be very much reduced.
Cratsmanship is also something that I really appreciate, having a background in small scale hand made manufacturing myself. The HB ticks that box to a certain extent. The curvy frame and the raw carbon weave really is a thing of beauty to me. But I think the small scale steel builders have something a bit special. Curtis ticks that box in a very big way for me but wow! that frame weight! The bare frame is a full kilo heavier than the frame and shock of the HB. Is that sort of weight common with steel bikes or is the Curtis overbuilt?
That's enough of my rambling. Off work so too much time on my hands!
@TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsSTR yeah I'd spotted that recently and it was only when I looked into the costs of buying it from PP that I realised you quickly put £1000s on list price.
This could get a bit long winded but you did ask
Serves me right, yeah.
So just a few quick points, as I should be working...
1. You should demo a few steel bikes if ride feel is a key factor.
2. A steel FS will very likely have a more comfy ride than your HB130, but will be heavier and possibly not pedal so well. Is that acceptable?
3. Longevity was also a driver for me, I think my Starling could be my last do-it-all pedal MTB.
4. The engineering quality was also a pleasant surprise for me. Another reason to demo, so you can look at them close up and see what you think.
(Ahem 👀)
<shameless plug> https://singletrackworld.com/classifieds/advert/cotic-jeht-frame-as-new/ </shameless plug>
I said no! 🤣
Currently riding a carbon HB130 and I love many things about it but I do feel a lot of trail chatter through it.
Chatter can usually be ironed out with setup & build.
Run lower tyre pressures and/or different compound - consider inserts etc. Play more with suspension. Consider how you sit on the bike etc.
2. A steel FS will very likely have a more comfy ride than your HB130, but will be heavier and possibly not pedal so well. Is that acceptable?
There'll be at most 1kg in it, between the 2 frames. Unsure why you think it'll pedal worse?
There’ll be at most 1kg in it, between the 2 frames. Unsure why you think it’ll pedal worse?
Because of the kind of bike it's likely to be (i.e. not a short-travel trail bike).
The Cotic Flaremax is a possible exception.
@chakaping all good points you make. I have to admit that while flicking through the choices available I had initially overlooked the Starling as I wasn't too keen on the look of the thin seat stays. After your glowing reports I have given them a more thorough look and been reading their excellent tech articles, including why an extra kilo of frame weight isn't really that important. So they are definately back in the running. Which model do you have?
@intheborders Tried all those things mate. In the scheme of things it is a minor niggle and others might ride it and wonder what I'm on about. As I said, I'm getting on a bit now and probably just craving a bit more comfort. Don't get me wrong thought I do love the HB and it has brought my riding on massively in the couple of years I've had it, I'm tackling far gnarlier stuff these days than I ever would have dared in the past. So, thinking more about this I think it is the longevity factor that I mentioned before that is my biggest motivation.
Not convinced about the approriateness of an ExBB as a pivot, wrong bearing type really, but i do like the shapes of this, just posted on the radavist.
https://theradavist.com/btchn-bikes-jerk-steel-enduro-full-suspension/
Which model do you have?
The Murmur, with a 160mm fork. It's an enduro bike really - and the 1kg extra frame weight doesn't matter very much in that context.
It's never going to fly along like a carbon 130mm trail bike can though.
I've written a review which I'll post on my blog soon, but I think many of the existing reviews give an accurate picture of them.
Are you looking to do a frame swap and transfer the parts from your Hope?
Yeah I was looking at the Murmer. Do you know if there is any frame difference beyween the Enduro and the trail or is it all in the build?
Are you looking to do a frame swap and transfer the parts from your Hope?
Not sure yet, I have a rough idea what I could get for the complete bike but no idea on frame only value. Would probably have to include the proprietary sized rear wheel in a frame sale.
No difference in the frame, it's just a 140mm vs 160mm fork.
Might be smart to split the difference at 150mm though.
Your Hope is probably the sort of bike that people would like to buy complete, if it's all decked out in Hope kit.
“Not convinced about the approriateness of an ExBB as a pivot, wrong bearing type really”
Why do you think that? Looks a cool bike - nice to see a simple single pivot getting some progression on the leverage curve.
FTFY
Agreed. And a Minilink. Biggest bike related regret was selling my Park Bike 🙁
Your Hope is probably the sort of bike that people would like to buy complete, if it’s all decked out in Hope kit.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
nice to see a simple single pivot getting some progression on the leverage curve.
Although according to Starling, it isn't needed.
Although according to Starling, it isn’t needed.
I'd agree with that, I think air shocks or coil shocks with progressive springs can make decent single pivot bikes feel as supportive as anyone realistically needs.
So you want to sell your Hope because you might damage it (is this your first carbon bike?) plus it's probably too much bike, so you're looking at bikes with more travel - is that right?
So you want to sell your Hope because you might damage it (is this your first carbon bike?)
Yes and yes.
plus it’s probably too much bike, so you’re looking at bikes with more travel – is that right?
Don't think I've said that, have I? It's certainly enough bike for a lot of my riding but there have been plenty of times I could have done with more travel.
Edit: Currently on 130 rear, 150 front. Can't see that going to 150 rear, 160 front is going to bring many disadvantages, is it?
Why do you think that?
Its a bearing designed for a constant rotation, with low friction, so i suspect (though i dont remember specifically from when i last had one open), they are likely to be caged bearings. Better to have larger balls and full compliment bearings for that kind of usage.
Update. After seeing in the flesh or should that be steel, a Curtis XR29 at Ard Rock. I am right on the edge of putting an order in. If anyone wants to talk me out of, now is the time 🙂
Curtis were our stand neighbours at Ard Rock. A whole level above the other steel full suss frames I've seen in the flesh. Fillet brazing visible through a smoke clear coat, wow!
If anyone wants to talk me out of, now is the time
Did you have a peek in the Bespoked tent? Some very lovely steel FS bikes in there.
@tomhoward I did. I saw the Coal 84 and Ra .12, was there anything else? Yeah very nice bikes but the pure simplicity of the Curtis along with the fantastic craftsmanship does it for me.
There was the Howler Frameworks Fenrir, but that was 27.5, and isn’t what you’d call the last word in simplicity…
That howler frameworks bike was lovely. I remember bumping into the chap who makes them at BPW earlier in the year and drooling over it then.
Stanton had a bike with a colourised clear coat so you could see the welding, also very lovely.
The Curtis stand was great, but couldn't stay and look too long otherwise I'd get ideas I can't afford.
You probably aren’t going to find any steel frames better crafted than the Curtis and as nice looking as the polished brazing with clear coat over the top.
I can’t get my head around buying a simple single pivot bike with no linkage to alter the curve these days personally. I feel the same about Orange bikes. I get they often have a limited number of big bearings so come bearing change time it’s a bit easier / bit cheaper but I don’t change bearings that often on my Horst link bikes for it to be an issue for me.
If going with that Curtis I’d go for the air shock so you can easily add tokens for ramp up if required. I’m running a coil on a bike with 24% progression and for me a linear spring hasn’t done the job. So I’ve just moved to a progressive one to avoid bottom out whilst still keeping lovely small bump and mid stroke support.
If I were buying a steel full suss bike I think I’d find it hard to look past a Cotic Jeht as a real do it all sort of bike with pretty decent geometry and good back up. Not as beautiful as the fillets in the Curtis though - I’ll give you that.
The Curtis will be a fine choice; I've had a couple of single pivot steel full sussers; a prototype SWD 6 gun... struggling to find pics of my bike after being hacked and banned on Facebook, so here's a similar one:
and a descendence vox:
Both had steel swingarms, which may not be the best for unsprung weight, but more than made up for that with sublime ride quality, providing levels of damping on frequencies that normally elude the abilities of suspension and tyres.
Couple that with supreme tracking (many attribute this to flex, but it's worth remembering steel is 3x stiffer than alu, albeit with thinner tubes) and a very intuitive nature that makes you feel at one with the bike and I daresay you'll be in for a treat
I have a stanton switch9er fs with the carbon rear end and its a fantastic bike, just be prepared to wait for it unless they have sorted their production times out.
If I were buying one now, I would most likely be looking at the Coal 84 as that thing looks stunning, but with unlimited funds the curtis would also be on my list.
I dont think you'd go wrong with any of the bikes mentioned within this thread, try and get a test ride on some and see what you like.
Owners pages on FB for most brands will give you a bit more detail around some of the brands etc.
I can’t get my head around buying a simple single pivot bike with no linkage to alter the curve these days personally
you can do this by the orientation of the shock in the frame.
not that the op mentioned this, but if you want a rising rate speak yo the builder about it. you’d possibly need to find a builder s weed go would do a completely custom frame, including the suspension design. Walt Works, not a british company, will do this for you.
the curtis is a beautiful bike, though.
@LAT Gary from Curtis said they can alter many parts of the frame to suit. Don't know about shock position though. I wouldn't know how to go about specifying a particular location for a specific response curve.