Forum menu
andybrad
Subscriber
not many issues with the hardtails, Its the FS thats had a lot of bad press recently.
It's not so much recent, it's just that things ebb and flow with how much people will dismiss as being acceptable. Oranges have always been a bit cracky for as long as i've had one, but people used to make more allowances. "They're bombproof, wouldn't want one of these rubbish impractical bikes with loads of bearings" and so on. Someone on here told me their old 2 years warranty proved they were super durable because if they were fragile, they'd need a longer warranty. Perception's more important than reality. Now, that seems to have gone a bit the other way and for whatever reason the breakages have the upper hand. I doubt anyone can tell you why tbh.
Likewise, most times when people post those fcactory videos it gets a reaction of "good on them", old school engineering sort of thing. This time it's caused a bit of a "how can you make bikes like that in 2018". Again, no idea why that's different. Dude hitting things with a hammer is doing exactly the right thing, nothing wrong with that but this time people have decided there is.
(when Guy Martin did his puff piece they showed the paint room and people said "Isn't that cool", I thought "ah so that's why my 224 has bits that weren't painted")
Wouldn't put me off owning one. But it's not just bad press, it's much more complex, public perception is a complicated animal.
What they should do is get one of the owners to come on here and rant away about how noone here knows anything about the industry, that their bikes aren't designed for people like us, and that they are way better than everyone else. Maybe get some of their mates to slag everyone off too.
Guaranteed to win everyone over.
(Also, you'd think they'd have somewhere to file away all the nudey pics for the vid. A cabinet or something?)
"What they should do is get one of the owners to come on here and rant away about how noone here knows anything about the industry, that their bikes aren’t designed for people like us, and that they are way better than everyone else. Maybe get some of their mates to slag everyone off too."
*Coughh" cot...nope...I'll refrain....
They do still look after there customers, I posted three days ago about a failed swing arm on an Alpine six just this Sunday gone.The replacement is in the shop ready to be fitted tomorrow... That's either luck they had that colour in stock Stainland or they had a few put away for a rainy day..... Either way bike up and running for Saturday.. That's not a bad warranty turnaround is it.
Still wouldn't have another prices are just bonkers at the moment
*Coughh” cot…nope…I’ll refrain
Nope, not them at all. That was when the brother/friend/whatever of someone who was quite happy with what they’d been offered came on here and spouted a load of shite
The quality issues aside, they are still significantly made of folded sheet metal which results in lots of additional welds when compared to more traditionally tube based construction. This results in the frame being subjected to more heat and potential distortion during the extra welding.
They also seem to weld by hand, which might be an attractive, artisan approach if they welding looked like it had been done with care and skill. They look to be built by guys who weld for a job, not as a passion. Robotic welding would give more control and consistency to the process, especially considering the frame/swingarm construction.
They've had their day, they just look like dated designs, built poorly with aspirational pricing. I suppose the price reflects the level of aftercare support you need post purchase.
Despite being from Yorkshire, I'd much rather buy a Nicolai or Pole if I wanted to pay top end pricing for an alloy bike.
It's a shame but Orange seem to be pricing high, and I can't see where the money goes, other than having a huge stock of warranty replacements and profit. It can't be R & D, it doesn't appear to be automation or quality. I can't imagine the staff are paid highly.
"someone who was quite happy with what they’d been offered came on here and spouted a load of shite"
Correction, responded to comments by a bunch of rocket humping fanboys - who went out of their way to publish the manufacturer I was talking about and then act offended.
You snivelling little twerp.
😂 haven’t been called a twerp in 25 years. Never bought a Cotic, not ever likely to, but you believe what you want.
It’s a shame but Orange seem to be pricing high, and I can’t see where the money goes,
How much is a copy of razzle these days?
Some of those Razzle editions might be worth something, maybe they are on the balance sheet?
They’ve had their day, they just look like dated designs, built poorly with aspirational pricing. I suppose the price reflects the level of aftercare support you need post purchase.
People on here have been paraphrasing that for about 10 years, but they keep on going, and keep on selling.
At some point that may actually be true, but I suspect it'll be a while yet.
I swear some people cut-and-paste their Orange spiel from previous threads.
If not, they could save a lot of valuable time doing so (looking at you Northwind).
Look all you like, you'd be wrong.I'm an orange owner, am I not allowed to be realistic about my purchases or are we all supposed to be fanboys?
The latest factory tour Ben More filmed and shared a few weeks ago gives a much better impression.
Got a link mate?
Probably this one?
That's the one, did I get the name right? Train posting. Wouldn't like to spend much time in the room with the sheet stamper.
Bug question is why are the Starlings the best thing ever and bang on trend but the same thing in alloy and 2lb lighter 'out of date' 😀 Not a slight against the Starlings, I like them too!
The only reason I don't personally ride one is the lack of bottle, but I sell a lot of bottle-ready bikes that never even have a cage fitted so obviously a bit of personal choice there.
I was chatting to them about the paint as my P7 is the toughest thing I have ever owned, they have been trying a few different paint mixes over the last few years and quite a few of the cracks were just paint being too brittle and splitting. Now it remains softer which is the reason my bike has no chips even after being ridden into a tree downtube first, along with a year of Scottish grime.
I would also think some cracked as well, but that's just life. Overall numbers are apparently pretty low.
They also seem to weld by hand, which might be an attractive, artisan approach if they welding looked like it had been done with care and skill. They look to be built by guys who weld for a job, not as a passion.
So much lol
The fact there is so much vitriol from princesses on here just reaffirms my affection for the brand even more.
I was chatting to them about the paint as my P7 is the toughest thing I have ever owned, they have been trying a few different paint mixes over the last few years and quite a few of the cracks were just paint being too brittle and splitting. Now it remains softer which is the reason my bike has no chips even after being ridden into a tree downtube first, along with a year of Scottish grime.
As far as I was aware they’ve always been powder coated rather than painted just for those reasons. Of powder coating is chipping off then they’re doing something wrong. OTOH, touch up paint is a non-thing for powder coat
"Bug question is why are the Starlings the best thing ever and bang on trend but the same thing in alloy and 2lb lighter ‘out of date’ 😀 Not a slight against the Starlings, I like them too!"
The attraction of Starling is that you can get custom geometry at a semi sensible price.
The attraction of Brants bikes is that they usually perform every bit as well as an Orange for half the price, they don't usually break either.
The attraction of BTR, is the sheer lunacy of some of their designs, how strong they are and that like Starling - they've been designed by some young bonkers Motorsports Engineers from a company that was initially run out of a shed!
The attraction of Hope is, well - they spend years refining a design and when they do something it is done with a wonderful level of attention to detail. The carbon layup on the HB.160 is lovely.
I love the look of Orange bikes - I do think they have to try an reinvent themselves though, given the above competition.
I'd be interested in seeing real numbers of failures, rather than just social media hysterics.
My 2 year old Orange Four's swing arm cracked at the start of the summer, and although it took a couple of months to get sorted, for which I blame my LBS entirely, I still received a brand new 2018 frame as a replacement. In nearly 30 years of mountain biking, and putting unfair strain on bikes as I'm a hefty lad, I've had two bikes crack under the strain. My four this summer, and a 2005 model Orange 5 that was out of warranty, and truth be told, was too wee for me. It wasn't a surprise when it cracked at the seat tube / top tube junction considering the amount of seat tube extension I was riding it with.
So that's 2 Oranges out of the 8 that I've owned, and 12 mountain bikes I've owned in total since taking up the hobby seriously in the very early 90's.
Over these years, I've seen Ti Raleigh's come apart as the glue failed. I've seen the same with Trek's bonded bottom brackets and dodgy swing arms. You wouldn't get me to touch a Whyte with a smelly stick, I've seem so many of them break underneath folk that I ride with. So why is it that Orange are getting singled out?
I reckon social media is making it way to easy to cry wolf and be heard. It used to be that when someone's bike failed, they'd go to the bike shop, maybe email the manufacturer and all would be sorted under warranty. Nowadays? Straight onto Facebook and start screaming recall. It's all a nonsense in my opinion.
One of the biggest complaints on the Orange owners Facebook page seems to be that Orange aren't honouring 2nd hand warranties. Seriously? Why would they?
Finally, the folk that are complaining about ugly welds? Admittedly, I've been out of the factory for a long time now, but I started my working life as a time served TIG welder, which I'm proud to say I was rather good at, in my opinion. Aluminium welding was a dark art to me, wizardry. Do you know that the aluminium oxide skin on aluminium has a higher melting temperature than the aluminium underneath? Those are good, strong aluminium welds.
That 2nd video is spot on. Same stuff happening, same blokes, just a good explanation of the process and no tits everywhere. The product looks good in that one. Yeah, orange should pull the first one if they can.
From what I gathered you can change the mix with the hardener or something like that. So the current stuff always remains quite soft, but seems to shrug off inpacts.
I am not a paint expert 😅
@raybanwomble - developing the Starling point, if you want a high-forward single pivot* bike you can't have one using modern materials (carbon or hydroformed ali), you have to have steel or bent ali sheet. (I assume Orange would use hydroforming if they could afford the tooling etc.?)
*though current Oranges and the Starling have the pivot farther back than on Oranges of old, they are inching towards the mainstream in pivot positioning.
The second vid. Much better.
Just goes to show how you can display the same process being done in a genuinely interesting manner than is good for the brand and another showing the same process in an entirely shonky way.
Anyway, thanks for posting the second vid guys.
"@raybanwomble – developing the Starling point, if you want a high-forward single pivot* bike you can’t have one using modern materials (carbon or hydroformed ali), you have to have steel or bent ali sheet. (I assume Orange would use hydroforming if they could afford the tooling etc.?)"
The pivots are set quite low compared to Commencal, Sickbikes Slepinir, Deviate and Forbidden Bikes. All of which are either alu or carbon.
Orange should be looking to make something like the Slepinir - only less niche - out of carbon.
Hmmm, they all look like conventional pivot above the bb, rather than forward of it. Obviously the deviate is a special case being indirect drive.
You don't need the pivot to be forward of the BB to get a rearward axle path, my commencal has a lot more rearward travel than any current Orange does.
The Deviate isn't any more special other than the fact that it has both a gearbox and an idler pulley.
https://www.wideopenmountainbike.com/2018/04/how-does-mountain-bike-suspension-work-part-2-pivots
Oranges have quite vertical to forward axle paths.
Well, I think it is a bit more complicated than that. Height of (real or virtual) pivot point (strictly speaking, relative to chainstay length) is the main factor for anti-squat. But actually that isn't quite it either. It is in fact the angle between the line to the pivot point and the line to the bb from the axle. With a forward pivot point, that angle increases with suspension compression, so your anti-squat increases, as does your rate of chain length increase.
Mostly, you would say that is a disadvantage, resulting in anti-squat when you don't neerd it, and un-necessary pedal kickback and chain growth. But for many people those things aren't relevant and so they love their Oranges. ("Two short link" suspension systems often operate in a way that puts the virtual pivot point to the rear of the bb, in a place no real pivot could be put, to achieve the reverse of this, which is generally thought of as a good thing.)
Another issue with the Orange design is the spring rate curve I think. Given the straight downtube and shock mounting position, and assuming you don't use a shuttle for the shock or a shock linkage (which Oranges did at one time I think) the forwarder your pivot the straighter/ more progressive your spring rate curve. (Someone posted above about falling rate suspension on an Orange.)
So there are all these compromises in the Orange layout. An advantage is (or at any rate was) a really simple design with the main load bits all hung off that chunky monocoque downtube, which also kept the head tube nice and stiff (in decades past, stiffness was often praised in reviews of Oranges). Another advantage is/was the way the suspension gubbins was well clear of the chainring and front derailleur, resulting in mud- friendliness.
Disclaimer, I have never ridden one. This is all theory.
On paper it's not ideal. And perhaps when you ride it there's a bit of kickback or it feels slightly less plush. But speaking as an Orange owner, when you are hooning down a rock strewn hillside on it you are having far too much fun to give a shit about any of it. Which is the whole point, is it not?
It is and I do like the concept of Oranges, it would be a shame if they are suffering from a lot of breakages.
I've ridden a lot of suspension designs, single pivot, four bar, VPP, horst link, Maestro and now a high single pivot. The high pivot on my SX makes the bike fun for me, sure - it's not poppy, it hugs the ground, but what gives me a grin is the way I can just batter the bike though stuff and not lose my foot placement at all. It's a proper straight line it bike, but a lot of people don't like that.
I've also found, that as the chainstay length grows under compression, the bike is quite manageable climbing despite having 180mm of travel.