grum - you've assumed that your position is the established one. Quite a few here, and the existence of an entire industry, suggest otherwise.
This would be the industry that says this:
Let Odin feed your system and get ready for improved noise floor and resolution, increased transparency, dynamic range and freedom from grain, more believable sound staging, more natural life and musical dynamics, a breathtaking range of tonal colours. Suddenly the music will step away from the system producing it, taking on a life of its own, becoming a real performance – all because the power on which your system depends is cleaner and arriving quicker.
...not even about audio cables but about a kettle lead that costs 9 grand. That you plug into your standard ring main.
Again, look at what recording studios use. They don't use thin, cheap, poorly shielded cable, but nor do they use ridiculously expensive stuff containing magic silver or whatever. These are people whose living depends on being able to hear stuff accurately, and using high-end monitor speakers.
grum - Member
This would be the industry that says this:
That's one member of that industry, not the entire industry.
It's a shame you and ransos have to resort to quoting the most ridiculous/extreme examples, it does undermine your credibility. Even I am sceptical of much of it, but I have heard differences between cables etc and struggle to believe it was all in my mind.
Studios are different altogether - sure their stuff needs to sound accurate, but it's different to high-end hifi.
bencooper - MemberI've probably not been paying attention, but one thing I found that does make a difference - using screened cable. Are any of these posh cables screened, with proper connectors?
That's what would make a difference, not one-way copper or whatever.
Quite a few here, and the existence of an entire industry, suggest otherwise.
There's an established industry in dreamcatchers, holy water, wrist magnets and crystals on string - all an established industry proves is that there are suckers out there who will buy something
IN THEORY a line level signal (2V) should not be affected by RF interference at all, no?
Your industry examples aren't that relevant - pretty much everyone owns a hifi and many can tell the difference between substantially different ones. Not the same at all to hocus pocus stuff.
Could it be differences in connectors? A copper cable is a copper cable - as long as it's fat enough for the load, then simple laws of physics say it can't make any difference. However good connectors vs. bit of wire shoved into a spring clip could make a big difference.
IN THEORY a line level signal (2V) should not be affected by RF interference at all, no?
Which theory would that be then?
Erm the one all the cable manufacturers adhere to?
That states that line level signals aren't affected by RF? Any references you'd care to share with the class?
And damn... I'd best call of that order for optical cable for work if that's the case! 😉
It is rumoured that the Egyptians used solid gold cabling and that the reason the pyramids were square based was to condense the quadrophonic speaker system internally upwards to the listener positioned at the pyramids summit, thereby pleasing the gods of bass, midrange and treble.
That's one member of that industry, not the entire industry.It's a shame you and ransos have to resort to quoting the most ridiculous/extreme examples, it does undermine your credibility.
Sorry but the hifi industry is rife with snake-oil sellers and bogus claims - you'd have to be very naive not to see that.
Even I am sceptical of much of it, but I have heard differences between cables etc and struggle to believe it was all in my mind.
Confirmation bias/placebo is a very powerful thing, and the brain's construction of what you consider to be a coherent and rational reality is just that. Very small differences in volume can have a huge impact on the perceived audio quality of music for instance - people imagine they can hear totally different qualities as a result.
Ask yourself why have these supposed differences between expensive and inexpensive cables have never been shown in a double blind test, even by those who consider themselves audiophiles, using high end equipment? They don't even have the same level of evidence to back up their claims as the 'clinically proven' cosmetics products, and that's saying something.
Studios are different altogether - sure their stuff needs to sound accurate, but it's different to high-end hifi.
Sure, but the main difference is that one is largely based on proper science and practical applications of it, the other uses 'magic'.
Fidelity, fidelity, fidelity, it's all about fidelity and maintaining it as best as possible until it reaches our ears.
The system that gets it's sound from source to listener with the highest level of fidelity is the best.
The room you're in, the source, the interconnects, it all counts.
It's quite funny as well that people are arguing for the benefits of using more expensive cables than the stuff they used to actually record the music they are listening to.
Where in the signal chain does the extra quality magically appear from, if it wasn't there in the original recording (due to them not using expensive enough cables)?
So funkynick is it the pedantry prize or the "I know all about this but I'm not going to let on so I look dead clever" prize you want?
I could express my point better but you don't deserve it 😛
grum - where does the magic begin and science end then? which cable for instance is as good an everything that costs more?
So funkynick is it the pedantry prize or the "I know all about this but I'm not going to let on so I look dead clever" prize you want?
How about some evidence to back up what you're saying?
Here's some for you BTW.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths
grum - where does the magic begin and science end then? which cable for instance is as good an everything that costs more?
I tend to trust Sound on Sound on these matters (though I'm not entirely convinced about oxygen free copper TBH).
Speaker cable needs to have a very low electrical resistance, so it needs to be fairly hefty and made from a pure material, such as oxygen-free copper (OFC). Impure material can introduce nonlinearities (the oxidised copper actually behaves as a semiconductor) that manifest themselves as increased distortion at low signal levels. There are many cables that qualify, including 30A 'cooker' mains cable, but a sensibly priced, heavy-duty speaker cable is easier to use and looks nicer.
Any product description that makes any special claims beyond having low resistance and decent quality connections is a big red flag IMO.
which cable for instance is as good an everything that costs more?
Something with low resistance. Like 30A mains cable. Or I've got a big reel of cable I use for electric bikes, rated at 60A - it's actually speaker cable too I think, costs about £1/m.
Resistance is all that matters.
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
No Al... I was just asking for some evidence for what you said about line-level signals and RF, or a clarification, if you didn't express yourself very well in the first instance.
Oh, and making a bit of a joke... 😉 I know it's hard to tell on here at times!
Well, OK then, just for you, my point was that it's generally considered that line levels are sufficiently unaffected by RF so as not to need shielding in audio applications...becuase...wait for it...no manufacturer/expert/weirdo (that I know of) suggests that shielding is necessary.
It's a debate neither side will ever win. We're all losers 😎
We're all losers
'cept me of course..
if it was discovered that all the win in the world flowed from a mystical river, and you followed that river back upstream to find the source you would find me.. gleefully peeing all the win into the world
Line level signals are affected by RF interference due to the low currents involved - that's why cables are always screened (and also balanced in pro audio). Speaker level signals are much higher current (and greater voltage too but only by an order of magnitude or two) so the cables don't need to be screened - and screening would increase capacitance which messes with HF response and can cause amp oscillation (I've had this happen with class D amps and complex passive crossovers).
chiefgrooveguru - MemberLine level signals are affected by RF interference due to the low currents involved - that's why cables are always screened
...erm...except they aren't always screened?
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The only other subject to stir up as much heated debate, vitriol and blind faith (on both sides of the argument) as this is religion.
Why do the sceptics insist on being so right in their belief that it's all snake oil and nonsense when none of them are actually into HiFi anyway?
And why do the audiophilles (of whom I am a recently lapsed example) feel the need to so fervently defend their own experiences?
I can say that there is a lot of margin in cables, big fat margin which makes me suspicious of the very expensive cables our there. You can tell there is a lot of margin on them because when you pick up any HiFi magazine, around 70% of the advertising is for cables. That says there is a lot of margin to justify expensive advertising.
is that DNM reson? i love the look of their amps (not heard them though)
i solved any cable issue by using naim cable with naim amps, one less thing to worry about and not expensive. 😀
5 pages in and no one has actually talked about what they listen to, only the gear they use.
It's hilariously sad.
MrSmith - yes, it's lovely kit.
crikey - Member5 pages in and no one has actually talked about what they listen to, only the gear they use.
It's hilariously sad.
Why so Mr Supercool?
It's a thread about hi fi, not music. Are you thick?
Aw, do you need a cuddle?
Spend enough to get well constructed cables; anything more than that is a waste and would be better spent on the music itself.
That is all 🙂
speaker cables......pah!!!
my hifi (Rega Brio r/Rega Apollo r/Rega RP1 TT/Rega RS3/Rega DAC) probably 2.5k rrp, i use Chord Silver Carnivall at £5m it sounds fantastic..... i have no desire for anything costing more...waste of money if you ask me!
