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I think theres certainly something to be said for clearly identifying stretches of singletrack/trail features at trail centres, either through naming or numbering sections,so that in the event of an incident the location can be quickly identified by both rider and emergency services (rather than "ooh, about halfway round after crossing the stream but before the drystone wall".
Beyond that, lots of phones have GPS, and you only need to go up the nearest hill to get some semblance of a signal, basic mountaincraft means someone should know where you are, your route, and when you're expected back.
[b]sfb[/b] - I didn't need to be "taught" that, it comes naturally, however I wouldn't necessarily expect others to conform to my preferences, and one's natural duty of care to others sometimes leads to seeking help from 3rd parties.
Indeed - I did outdoor ed course at uni and it was drummed into us, in case no one 'got it'....
a follow -up ! ::::::: maybe an icolated incident to all of you but i hope sum of you get my point i was treying to gett acrosss and i feel sorry for this chappy... solo riders/ infact any riders...accidents do happen... and maybe some emergency procedure shud be in place on the forest trails... INCIDENT ::::::
June 06 Sun 18.05 Gisburn Forest, Lancashire - Mountain Rescue
A solo mountain biker (m, 25) fell off his bike and sustained a bad break to his arm; his helmet was also damaged. Unfortunately mobile phone contact was lost before an exact location could be obtained. He was found at the roadside by the first CRO vehicle responding, having managed to walk the three quarters of a kilometre out of the forest. Casualty care was provided by CRO until the road ambulance arrived. Bowland Pennine MRT were called and then stood down when the casualty was located.
Wow, a whole 0.75km walk out of a forest, proper backcountry 😉
And what would the hotspot buttons have done to help him? He managed to get to a road and got help...I don't think it would have been any different if there was a button he could press - saying that, he'd have to have fallen right at the button and been able to press it to mnake a difference - he was still mobile and walked out to a road...
Daft idea you'd get people buzzing the SOS button if they got a flat or broke a nail.
However...the mapping/marking out of trail centres does sound a good idea. I (normally) know where I am, where I'm going and potential gib out points whenever I'm out riding au naturele. But the few times I've been to trail centres I ride into the trees, follow the signs then ride out at the end without the foggiest where I was inbetween. The trail centres kind of promote this too with their simplistic innacurate smiley faced maps they have at the cafes.
Eeee by 'ekkk! Theres soem tosh up there!
Solar powered CCTV in lack spots?
Direct phone lines to the ranger?
Stick a first aid kit in your camelback, read a book on how to use it (or even better, go on a course), and take some responsibility!
On any of the SaR TV programs inevitably theres quite a few where you think WTF were they thinking, climbing ben nevis in the worst snow for 100 years in stilletos, but thinking it was OK because if they got stuck they could call the hellicopter? Imagine how bad it would be if you dint even need phone signal?
"I've run out of cliff bars, could ou send us up some flapjack if the ranger is passing by?"
simonfbarnes - MemberJust take a phone.
I reckon mobiles work about 25% of the time in the places we ride...
But you can ring 999 from any network, just do a manual search for networks on your phone and use whatever you can get.
I wouldn't like to see trail centres become more sanitised, bad enough in the couple of years I've been away from mountain biking that trail centres seem to have taken over (as shown by one magazines "local knowledge" route guides that often feature trail centres, first we rode the red, then we rode the black route, superb, what kind of local knowledge is that??).
I'd wonder if MR teams local to the popular trail centres are quite familiar with the routes themselves, and so long as there is someone who can talk them onto the casulties location then pressing a little "help" button wouldn't be needed. Besides, imagine the number of numpties who'd press a button the ride off?
With respect elaine, if you're worried about incapacitating yourself on a solo ride, then no amount of the sort of thing you suggest is going to help. You could smash your pelvis or knock yourself out 200yards from an emergency help point and it might as well not exist.
If you're mobile then you ought to be able to get yourself to a road, or at least to somewhere with a mobile signal.
If you're with other people then they can get you out or get help.
In your scenario from Gisburn the " MRT incident" happens because the injured rider calls for help from an area where he has inadequate mobile signal. A certain amount of mountain rescue time is wasted because they know there is a casualty but don't know where he is. Probably no skin off anyone's nose really and a perfectly good result all round.
Presumably if he'd simply walked to the road and called an ambulance then it could have been done slightly more efficiently, but I don't think anyone can be blamed for calling for help when they've snapped a limb. 🙂
Sorry but I'm going to agree with Elaine here.
SOS points on trails are an excellent idea with the one condition being that in hot weather there are bikini clad beauties serving cold beer at each one and in winter, there are bikini clad girls in hot tubs dishing out mulled wine. Its the future...
I'm really starting to think the outdoor life isn't for you Elaine Anne.
Ok if they did exist just how would the guy in the example above get to them, I guess he'd have to walk the 750m to it.
Don't all trail center marker posts have a little number attached to them? If not all, most do. I always assumed if I ever needed help I'd get my self to one and relay that to the emergency services who should be clever enough to locate it and me via a ranger or similar.
Don't quite know why mobile strength needs to be added, your phone tells you that.
On a tangent, are we all really anti social?
first thing they tell you on DofE or at scouts is get into a group of between 4 and 7 (8/2 = 4, and bigger groups tend to be harder to manage), that way if theres a problem you've got someone to stay with the casualy (v.important) and 2 people to go get help.
All these SOS beakons provide for is Billy no mates? I know we all go out solo occasionaly/all the time but it doesn't hurt to do what MR etc tell you to do and leave detailed route instructions and call home at pre aranged times to let people know your still alive.
I am quite anti-social yes. A vast proportion of my riding is done by myself, and 4 is pretty much my maximum group size ever.
There isn't anyone at home, and leaving detailed route-plans for a day faffing about on the Surrey Hills with my dad seems a bit OTT. Equally, the risks of exposure or being eaten by wolverines while trying to drag my broken body back through the boondocks to the relative civilisation of Peaslake or Westcott are generally manageable. 🙂
Some excellent trail centre snobbery on display today… Bluster, bluster, bluster, Nanny state, mumble, HSE, Bloody kids these days… top stuff..
Yes OP’s idea may be a bit impractical and perhaps misses the point that heading out into the wilderness solo is meant to be a bit dangerous, and that those who do so should be prepared, know the risks and how to navigate.
But I also think there’s no harm in considering and discussing possible infrastructure/systems to prevent loss of life and/or limb, Mountain biking is on the increase and is not the safest sport on Earth, it’s inevitable that more people will get into trouble even at the trail centres, so why not consider what can be put in place to prevent minor problems becoming major ones?
The whole hearted shooting down of well meaning peoples ideas by a bunch of Jaded arses in the “I know best” brigade speaks volumes to me. Constantly keen to belittle those who’s mountain craft, and survival skills aren’t up to their own high standard but hardly keen to pass on “the knowledge”, instead keen to imply the countryside is for “Us” and not “Them” and that everyone other than themselves, who dares venture outside of a major town is a moron inviting near certain death…
Personally I’d like to see a non-way marked trail centre but With Maps freely downloadable and available in the car park, the idea being that visitor would learn in a relatively safe environment how to navigate, and how to tackle unknown trails for the first time... obviously with the provision that should they get into serious trouble they can contact the emergency services and let them know where they are…. Think of it as a training environment perhaps…
Personally I’d like to see a non-way marked trail centre but With Maps freely downloadable and available in the car park, the idea being that visitor would learn in a relatively safe environment how to navigate, and how to tackle unknown trails for the first time
10 years ago that was called navigation & the countryside. OK, maybe the person would have had to plan their own route or follow a magazine route, but it was perfectly doable.
what missing frontallobe said
I love trail centers, mainly because I can do more corners,jumps and fun stuff at Swinley in 15 miles than I could in 150miles on the Chilterns.
But to take away even more responsibility from the user is pushing them in a direction I think would be really bad for the sport. Its an outdoor activity with quite a high element of risk, possibly even higher than rock climbing. But realisticly that risk and its assessment is down to you. If you go out ridig alone in the highlands, in winter, with no food or warm clothes thats your own stupid fault, MR will come out and help you, but if you die its through your own actions, not their inactions. Similarly at a trail center, if you go out, alone, and come a cropper, with no help available, its your risk assessment that put you there. Either minimise the risk by riding slowly on well known easy trails, or mitigate it (body armour, helmet, ride with company). Expecting someone else to assess the risk for you is not going to end well as they dont know you.
No from me, again we're not in a nanny state and the outlay in costs and staffing requirement is mental. There's just no need having someone holding your hand all the time, if you're not able to navigate don't go out alone. If you have an accident then, generally, a phone will work most trail centres and if not then ride carefully if you're worried.
What I'd suggest a far more sensible option is something that logs whether you've returned after a ride+some expected delays and alerts a friend/family member.
why not consider what can be put in place to prevent minor problems becoming major ones?
I rather take the view that most of the cost-effective things are down to riders being sensibly prepared.
My "mountain craft and survival skills" aren’t up to much personally, but things like first aid kit, survival blanket, tools and spares, adequate food and clothing, phone and some means of establishing where you are are (a) basic, (b) no imposition on anyone to carry and (c) capable of preventing a large number of potential problems from turning ugly.
If measures to ensure that a trail centre is safer are cost-neutral then fine. But I'm not sure I see much point in spending money on the assumption that people are genuinely clueless and putting in costly measures to ensure that their assumed cluelessness doesn't cause problems.
We've said it before, but "Better drowned than duffers. If not duffers won't drown".
It is, as you say, not the safest thing to be doing and it's entirely reasonable to expect that sensible people will take some basic precautions when they go out. For most people's low-level, not-far-from-a-road, tolerable weather excursions most of what is needed to stay tolerably safe is not rocket science or "mountain craft" particularly. And if you're going up into the highlands in winter and want to have help points then perhaps doing somewhere else instead is the best answer. 🙂
[i]obviously with the provision that should they get into serious trouble they can contact the emergency services and let them know where they are…. Think of it as a training environment perhaps…[/i]
I think we have enough to do and stretched as it is thanks.
Constantly keen to belittle those who’s mountain craft, and survival skills aren’t up to their own high standard
Thankfully I don't fall into that category as I doubt I'd survive a night on the hills on my tod let alone get myself safe after an accident. High standard? Erm...if common sense is classed as a standard then I've reach that one...the outdoors is dangerous - herein lies the attraction to almost every MTBer - trail centres reduce that danger but it doesn't make them completely foolproof and safe - they do have dangers...but common sense generally gets me out of any problems. The times I've had to deal with issues I've managed (tree through arm; snapped frame; folded wheels).
The issue (as I see it) is this - if you provide all this gizmology and technology people are going to get less reliant on common sense and their own ability and more reliant on someone else being there for them. At the end of the day, you pedal your own bike and you decide where it goes so you have ultimate responsibility as to what happens to you - if you get into an accident then either be equipped to deal with it or make sure you are with someone who can (even if that is to get to a road to flag down an ambulance)...putting more stuff in this trail networks is just going to make more people do stupid things (and also cause a whole headache of extra cost and no doubt litigation).
The idea is good, but the suggested practical solution isn't...I've said it on previous posts in this topic - the idea is good, making it work is the hard bit...
:lol:SO WHY COULSNT THE RECUE PEOPLE FIND THAT DUDE IN THE FOREST THEN ? tHATS WHY HE STRUGGLED WITH BROKEN BONES TO GET HIMSELF TO THE ROAD..
his mobile signal wasnt strong enuff apparently so he dragged himself out..
erm who ever said the outdoor life isnt for me ive been cycling for 2 years solid with no mishaps or broken bones.... ive climbed high cliffs with no broken bones and im also use to do CAVING myself and in still alive in one piece...so i think i am very much an outdoor person....just making a few pointers thats all...... sorry for speaking ahem..... i wont be helping any of you lot next time your struggling either ! lol
I think you're making a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. For the one in a million case where someone struggles to get help for themselves in a country practically blanketed by mobile coverage and people. So you might have to drag yourself to somewhere with a broken limb - personally unless it was a broken thigh/spine I'd consider it the LEAST I could do to drag myself back to the carpark before calling an ambulance, people are far too reliant on the emergency services these days.
DickB well put.
It was me Elaine. It was meant in humour you earlier posts have made me laugh of being uber cautious and now pampering trails even more. Good for you not being injured but that's the point self responsibilty would have helped not a marker post saying you are here.
Caving...on your own...have you not seen The Descent...bigger Kahoonas than I've got!!!
Mountains aren't dangerous. Bad decisions or hero behaviour can be.
[i]Caving...on your own...have you not seen The Descent.[/i]
Hot chicks disappearing into the woods together, damn monsters got them before anything good happened though.
i have seen the Decent !!!! and not ruddy been in a cave since that film !!!! hahahhha... actually wheni have been caving i have never and will never be in a cave on my own.... i cant stress enough that you must always be in a group, so if accidebts happen then someone can rub out to get some kind of help...these cave especially the ones in the yorkshire Dales can flood to the ceilings in a matter a minuites...
ok im with you all on the 'nanny state' thing... but who ever said we 'rely on the emergency services too much'...thats like saying "oh its ok if i have a 'heart attack' and die', or if i fall half way down a cliff cos me runners unclipped themselves -no need to dial 999 ... nope no-one will care anyway ? im just another statistic eh.... :
ok im with you all on the 'nanny state' thing... but who ever said we 'rely on the emergency services too much'...thats like saying "oh its ok if i have a 'heart attack' and die', or if i fall half way down a cliff cos me runners unclipped themselves -no need to dial 999 ... nope no-one will care anyway ? im just another statistic eh.... :
Coffeeking said that a [i]mobile[/i] casualty should move themselves to a point from whcih they could be more easily rescued instead of expecting emergency services to come and find them away from the road. Why is that anything like either of your examples?
Speaking from personal experience.. it's not THAT hard to drag your sorry broken arse a couple of kilometres.. even with a broken thigh amongst numerous other things.. it just takes a bit of spit and grit..
Why on earth do people keep saying mountain biking is dangerous - some said more so that rock climbing. it is not at all. Its a very safe pastime. 30 folk a year die on the scottish hills mountaineering. I know of no MTB deaths
The problem is is too many folk have no idea of risk assessment and of mountaincraft. They rely on a mobile phone to get them out of trouble.
Get real - get trained if you need it. Ride within the limits of your skills - both mountaincraft and bike handling.
Just think how we did this pre mobiles. We told someone where we were going and when we were due back. We carry what is needed to survive until rescue can get there but the main thing is we were self reliant.
I am perfectly happy to go for multiday treks into remote parts with no mobile . I am confident in my skills and in 40 yrs I have never once called the emergency services
i too have never contacted the emergency services, and never seriously been hurt in rock climbing... one minor brake of the thumb but that was indoor rock climbing ! lol.
i always ride within my limits but i think most of us like a challenge at some point do we not....
"bit oh yorkshire slang now.so lighten up yee whipper snappers.... "eeh wen i were a lad, thee didnt have mobiles in them days -it were in bed by 9 oclock or ya had the slipper off ya father n sent t bed wi no scotch eggs for tea, maybe a glass oh milk and if ya were lucky ya had a hot waterbottle to cuddle up to whilst fighting off them big scary spiders crawling down ya damp wallpaper... then ya ruddy older brother wud come strolling in drunk at 10.30pm wi ya dad at back of him wit big wooden stick shouting ya no gud drunken lout, get them sodden clothes off scruff of yer neck, no supper for theee...BED NOW ! sorry no- im not drunk just tipsey ! lol n if that werent enuff ruddy Arthur Scargill "got hit ont back at head wit riot shield" well bugger me.... 😆
Can I sum it up?
[b]Its a sh*te idea[/b]
[i]"oh its ok if i have a 'heart attack' and die', or if i fall half way down a cliff cos me runners unclipped themselves -no need to dial 999 ... nope no-one will care anyway ? im just another statistic eh.... :[/i]
Not the same at all genuine emergencies are one thing, dialing 999 for minor injuries another.
We're talking self responsibility here making the outdoors more and more like a softplay just encourages people not to take responsibility. "It'll be alright we can always ask for help"
I think it is a great idea for trail centres but it doesn't go nearly far enough.
What we need is a system of ropes and safety harnesses so that when a potentially dangerous section is reached, riders can hook onto the rope and if they fall they could be saved from a nasty injury. It would enable entire families to go down 'blacks'. Dad or indeed Mum, can show how rad they are by descending 'unhooked' safe in the knowledge that their offspring can follow in total safety. Less confident riders could also try a dodgy section fearlessly, safe in the knowledge that the worst that can happen is bruised genitalia from an improperly positioned harness.
Alternatively, why not save money on those expensive mtb's and simply tour the theme parks for a thrill. You will get plenty exercise walking from ride to ride and have none of those creepy crawlies to deal with or be surprised by a rock which someone thoughlessly forgot to remove from the trail when it was carved over the last few centuries. You will also be able to graze on a variety of 'proper' food from the many fast food establishments dotted around thus negating the need to carry cumbersome backpacks.
There, all sorted 😉
The 'hard' bits at trail centres should be like the flumes at swimming pools; an attendant at the top who has camera footage all the way down, so they can see when the last rider has exited and set the next off on their way. You would obviously need a serious of 'life guards' all the way down, in case of difficulty.
Cool and a camera taking pictures on the scary bit so you can buy them to show your family what fun you had.
Actually, that's quite a good idea, I'm sure it would make a good income at the trail centres.
All the sharp pointy rocks should be removed and replaced with replicas made of foam. So you'd get the same gnarly experience but if you fell then would just bounce 🙂
I'm not a climber (picture me on the end of a rope and you'd be best to imagine a wrecking ball on the end of a chain), but am aware that there has been a very longstanding debate on fixed protection on climbs, the pro argument is safety, the con argument is people climbing beyond their abilities.
I was on a ride several years ago when a rider had quite a bad crash on the descent through Lawson Park, down to Coniston. He was well concussed, even down to short term amnesia. it was only a short distance back to vehicles so we all rode down as a group back to the start point, and I persuaded the riders friend that he had to seek medical attention, which he did. If the rider had been unable to move then I'd have bivvy bagged him, and rang for MR/ambo. Some basic equipment like a cheap survival bag can make a massive difference, and should be living in most of our camelbaks year round.
I would like to see the adoption of the Darwin principal of safety.
Remove all safety measures and thereby eliminate those who cant look after themselves from the gene pool.
This year I will be holidaying on my own, with my bike, and some of my riding will be in remote areas. Every day when I go out with my bike, nobody will know where I have gone and, indeed, whether I have returned.
I ride sensibly with map, gps, spare batteries, food, drink, waterproof, first aid kit etc. Regularly ride on my own. I am totally responsible for my own safety.
Have learned lessons along the way. Managed to have an off which was pretty painful. Checked bike over, got back on and returned to car. Five days later presented myself at A & E - broken collarbone. Sometimes you just have to deal with things.
C_G is one hard chick.
Er, stupid is the word. 😉
Wow - 5 days before you checked out a broken collar bone, that's core !!
It took me 6 hours to realise (my own fault, cycling home rat-arsed) - 2 mile walk home after crash, then 4 hours sleep before the errr 'anaesthetic' wore off and I looked in a mirror 😯