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The evidence that helmets actually reduce serious head injuries is poor at best.You are less likely to have an accident if you don't wear one - why is unclear but that is the evidence.
TJ thats the biggest load of arse I've ever read, not that it worries me as I wear my 80ltr camelbac on my head every ride.
I've just scanned a number of the articles about helmet wearing and safety and they all seem to miss the point by a country mile.
Sure you can make any number of clever intellectual statistical arguments about what effect it has on your own propensity to take risks, what effect it has on how drivers treat you etc. Wow, fantastic, we can all toss ourselves off in a wave of intellectual hot air, spending tax payers money on pointless studies.
Can we not just have the data that really matter?
If I hit my head with a fixed amount of force against a rock, pavement, road, whatever it might be, with a helmet on, then how much energy does the helmet absorb and prevent being transferred to my brain? If I repeat that experiment without a helmet, what is the likely injury I will sustain? At what point does the helmet cease to offer any useful protection against the transfer of energy from movement to brain via hard surface? What is there difference between these events at different levels of energy and what about if the rock is pointed or dull?
Is this not really the point? I mean that yes the other scenarios are all perfectly valid in an intellectual discourse, but they’re hardly real world are they?
OP - couldn't you just have posted on the same tedious topic, on the thread from yesterday?
[url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/helmets-or-lack-thereof-at-dalby ]http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/helmets-or-lack-thereof-at-dalby[/url]
Mr Nutt - that is the actual evidence. You may not want to believe it but that is clearly the case. Have a read on the links on the CTC site
Arrgghhhh Khani just hit me round the head
Edit - geetee - so you just dismiss a load of careful research as you don't agree with it.
Double edit incidence is a part of overall risk - so if helmet wearing means more accidents then they may INCREASE overall risk
Now the evidence on that is sketchy but there are some pointer that wearing helmets increase incidence of head injury
Needs more invvestigation. for sure.
doh crispedwheel', you pipped me at the post (i was just about to put the dalbt thread link in too ! peeep peeep peeep.. 
Sorry crispedwheel and elaine anne, ill ask the driver and cyclist to time their accident better next time!
Forgive my bad searching skills, i didnt think to look...ill go flog myself with the barbed wire now... 🙄
Lets try and keep it together people and play nice .....I think the louvre is starting to ebb a bit, same team and all that.
The majority of adults will make their own decision whether to wear a helmet or not irrespective of all the debate on the subject, which is fair enough.
What worries me more is that the authorities, courts, and insurance companies seem to be taking the view more and more that a cyclist is in some way contributing to their own misfortune should they be involved in an incident by not wearing a helmet, even where no head injuries are involved.
I wear a helmet when I'm mountain biking or going on a road ride on relatively quiet roads but not when I'm commuting. The reason is that I think that they do actually increase the risk of accident due to perceived safety. Not the rider's perceived safety but that of drivers.
When I was in the US the attitude of car drivers was unbelievable. There were people who thought that it was OK to try to nudge cyclists off the road as a warning and that they would be OK because they were wearing a helmet.
I'm not saying things are that bad in the UK but I still think the more you look like a 'proper cyclists' the more likely you are to be given less space than is safe because drivers sub-consciously or consciously assume that you're good enough and that you don't need as much room as someone who looks like they're on their way back from the pub. That's also the reason that if I hear a car coming up fast behind me I give a slight wobble and wander over the road a bit more.
I'd just like to add that I have absolutely no evidence to back this up, just what I've concluded from talking to some drivers. Anyone who thinks differently's opinions are equally valid and I'm not going to try to shove my opinion down your throat.
stumpynya12 - Member
Lets try and keep it together people and play nice .....I think the louvre is starting to ebb a bit, same team and all that.
Agreed, but I think the keyboard warriors are out! 😉
Ok this is a very topical thread for me as i have to give a talk tonight at my Nephews cub scout meeting about bikes... how gears work, change a puncture, braking etc.
Should i tell them the importance of wearing a helmet or that they are more likely to have an accident if they wear one ????
The police called me last night and said they were not going to charge the driver. Usually they would, but as the light the guy was using was not very good and he was not wearing any high vis clothing, then he had to accept some responsibility!
Sounds just like the old "She was asking for it" rapist defence!
psling - MemberWhat worries me more is that the authorities, courts, and insurance companies seem to be taking the view more and more that a cyclist is in some way contributing to their own misfortune should they be involved in an incident by not wearing a helmet, even where no head injuries are involved.
I don't think the courts are - there has been a couple of high profile cases recently where insurance companies have argued this but that have been resolved in the cyclist favour.
Frankers - I would concentrate on telling them how to use a helmet properly - fit and doing the straps up.
I reckon more than half the people I see with helmets on wear them so badly they they will be very compromised. This includes Glentress last week
TandemJeremy - MemberFrankers - I would concentrate on telling them how to use a helmet properly - fit and doing the straps up.
Good call, cheers!
I choose to wear a helmet as I want to reduce the chance of injury in a crash whether on road or trails.
If others choose not wear one to that's their own choice if somewhat selfish.
Why selfish? Well they are thinking only of their own 'right' not to wear one. Not of the people who would be affected if they got a serious head injury - their dependants, family, etc.
The recent Steve Cracknell crash in the US is a great example of the benefits of a helmet. He would most likely be dead or massively brain damaged without one in the opinion of the medical team out there.
Medics always support helmet use though, they are not necessarily the best to comment objectively on it.
there are very few head serious injuries. There is no massive epidemic of head injuries
Seems odd to me. I've seen and read about loads of accidents where people've smacked their heads on the tarmac, making an otherwise minor accident serious.
And as for adults making their own decisions.. hmm.. adults often make wrong decisions, don't they? And if someone gets vegetablised then it's not always just them that suffers is it?
Food for thought.
Molgrips - go and read up on it. Try the ctc links as a start.
There is no epidemic of serious head injuries, cycling is very safe. this is true.
We suggest that given the importance of cycling as an activity for millions of the population, the risks of either a) forcing those users to wear helmets or b) promoting helmet use, emphasising the risks In reality, the risks of cycling are low – you are more likely to be killed in a mile of walking than a mile of cycling (DfT, 2009), whilst the risk of injury per hour are as likely when cycling as they are gardening (Powell KE et al, 1998).
That's not quite what I mean. I understand cycling is safe, that's why I do it.
The thing is, if you DO get hit by a car on a road, there's a fair chance of hitting your bonce on the tarmac, is there not?
And as for adults making their own decisions.. hmm.. adults often make wrong decisions, don't they?
Agreed, but the majority of adults are able to make a judgement, a subconscious risk-assessment if you like.
And if someone gets vegetablised then it's not always just them that suffers is it?
That argument can be extended right through to getting on the bike in the first instance. In my local riding patch (I'm talking off-road now), apart from cuts and grazes to various limbs, the more serious incidents have involved neck injuries and spinal injuries which some may argue can be made worse by wearing a helmet 😕
Fortunately for this thread I am GMT-5hrs.
IMPO - and i'm not going to debate it - please see previous threads, anyone who thinks that ridng without a helmet is safer and that helmets actually make accidents worse are completly and utterly deluded.
Please see previous debates for reasons why.
Have a good day.
Why selfish? Well they are thinking only of their own 'right' not to wear one. Not of the people who would be affected if they got a serious head injury - their dependants, family, etc.
I'm not thinking about my right not to wear one, I'm thinking about my own safety as I explained above. I think that while commuting in town wearing a helmet increases my risk of an accident. It probably will reduce the severity of an accident to a certain extent but I think it's safer to avoid accidents altogether.
I don't think you're selfish for wearing one and possibly increasing your risk of an accident though, I just think you have a different and equally valid opinion given the lack of evidence for or against.
LHS - MemberFortunately for this thread I am GMT-5hrs.
IMPO - and i'm not going to debate it - please see previous threads, anyone who thinks that ridng without a helmet is safer and that helmets actually make accidents worse are completly and utterly deluded.
LHS - I don't think anyone has ever argued that - I certainly have not
However LHS someone who in the face of quality evidence denies that helmets can exacerbate injuries in some circumstances and denies that as helmet wearing rates rise head injuries don't fall is not following the evidence in a scientific manner. Attacking those who disagree with you shows the weakness of your position.
Edit
However LHS is right - this has been argued over and over again to the point at which we are all sick f repeating. Have search on here
Look at the links on the CTC site for a starting point or follow previous debates on here.
http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=4689
frankers....
I believe the children are our future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be
You wear one on the trail (I assume...) but there are far more uncontrollable variables on the road. I didn't used to wear one before I "got into" cycling, but now it's up there with having a saddle. You don't [i]have[/i] to have one but a lot of bad things can be prevented by keeping it involved. Unless you trials (but they generally have helmets on!)
By not protecting yourself you are creating a burden to the emergency services who have enough on their plate! Get over the vanity, you are perceived for such a short duration when pedalling that the presence of a lid won't really sway the approval/disapproval of that oh-so-important stranger.
Last time I looked the Sun was the most popular source of info on a daily basis, ergo random stranger is likely to be fairly simple anyway and probably dislike you for something else! (I am exaggerating, but you get my point)
helmets actually make accidents worse
TJ have you not argued this in respect of rotational injuries?
My tuppence on it.
People who buy helmets should get a tuition on how to fit it properly to their skull. TJ is right on this one, trail centres are full of newbies with badly fitted helmets that would not do its intended job.
Mainly though, those who dont wear helmets are very slow riders (in my opinion) who perceive risk being minimal because of the (lack of) speed of the impact. Thats what i notice or conclude from my daily commute or general riding.
So to conclude:
Fast, good riders wear helmets
Slow, untalented riders dont
Thats why i always wear a helmet 😛
You wear one on the trail (I assume...) but there are far more uncontrollable variables on the road
I wear one on the trail because I take more risks and I am (normally) the only one responsible for any accidents I have. While commuting in town the biggest danger is from car drivers and their perception of how much risk I am at. Therefore I don't wear a helmet while commuting in town because I want to appear at as much risk as possible to car drivers. I also tend to wear jeans and a leather jacket rather than clothes that would be better for cycling for the same reason (riding in the dark is a different story, high vis clothes and the brightest lights I can find).
I agree why take a chance - I know someone had stupidly posted somethinng about how they dont wear helmet due to the risk of rotational injury being much greater - well this is just plain stupid - would you rather have a strained neck or a smashed up skull - simple really!
Who was that mimi?
yeah neninja,
imagine medics who see people heads stoved in quite often from cycling accidents and the difference from those who have wore and those who have not wore a helmet advising people to wear helmets.
Nutters that they are
Crazy people - in fact I cant believe they are allowed to operate on people.
cynic-al - Memberhelmets actually make accidents worse
TJ have you not argued this in respect of rotational injuries?
Do you ever bother to read anything? I answered this many many times.
There is good evidence that in [u][b]some circumstances[/b][/u] helmets can make injuries worse. How often this occurs is not known. To say this is not the same as saying "helmets actually make accidents worse" There are people who do argue that you shouldn't wear helmets at all because of this - including neurosurgeons. Myself I don't - or else I would never wear one. Even the TRL found this effect
A rotational injury is not a strained neck - it is a diffuse axon injury - a far nastier type of brain injury. Typically you get a focal injury from a direct impact. A focal injury is much less severe that a diffuse axon injury.
There is also a meagre mount of evidence that helmets can increase the risk of high neck fractures.
Its an area that requires more research but cycle helmets are far worse for this than other types of helmet. It is a proven fact that this effect occurs. What the incidence and thus the risk is still debatable
I will not debate this further but if anyone want the acedemic references e mail me. Or follow the links on the CTC page. Or use google scholar. Journal of accident prevention IIRC
I read plenty TJ, I just lose some of the detail.
MAybe (and I am not joking) you should have a web page for stuff like this, as it is easy to lose the detail and you seem to get frustrated repeating it.
I don't wear a helmet when walking, more fool me, because when that truck door swung open and flicked me into a wall i had quite a nasty cut on my eyebrow.
Agreed, but the majority of adults are able to make a judgement, a subconscious risk-assessment if you like.
Hahaha!
Good one!
Did everyone wear seatbelts before they were compulsory? How many people drank and drove in the 70s?
In Wisconsin helmets for motorcyclists used to be mandatory. They managed to get that law overturned, now you hardly ever see motorcyclists wearing one.
Most adults are very much NOT rational and sensible!
Therefore I don't wear a helmet while commuting in town because I want to appear at as much risk as possible to car drivers
This is absolutely BARMY. I'd wager a large number of accidents are caused by motorists not seeing you at all. So how does not wearing a helmet help? One of the battiest arguments I've heard since WWI - "Let's attack in broad daylight, they wont' be expecting it!"
There are far far better ways of asserting your road presence than removing safety equippment. The fact that you think drivers are surveying the scene, seeing you sans lid and thinking 'right, well he's not wearing a helmet so I'll pass 6" closer than if he was' is making me chuckle irl 🙂
Why not undo your front brake cable too? Weave all over the road a bit too? You'll be safe as houses then! 😆
And if someone gets vegetablised then it's not always just them that suffers is it?
That argument can be extended right through to getting on the bike in the first instance
Yes of course, but it's about degrees of risk. I like to cycle, but the wearing of a helmet is a totally trivial way of significantly reducing the risk to my brain (imo). So I do it, and it has no negative impact on my cycling in any way.
Al - I just should stick to my resolve not to get sucked into the arguments AGAIN
As others point out - no one is listening, people don't like having sacred cows shot, no one ever changes their mind and people prefer their "common sense" reasoning over actual scientific evidence( edit as evidenced by molgrips in his post above) - which admittedly on both sides of the helmet debate is of poor quality.
Molgrips - do yorself a favour and actually go and read up on some of this stuff - you make a load of ludicrous assumptions in that post which are just wrong. Start with the CTC links.
stumpynya12 - Member
frankers....
I believe the children are our future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be
Ok will do... cheers!
Molgrips - do yorself a favour and actually go and read up on some of this stuff - you make a load of ludicrous assumptions in that post which are just wrong. Start with the CTC links.
I have read them.
Which bit of my post is 'ludicrous'?
i wear a helmet because i have a high IQ and the world needs my intelligence. its my duty as a member of the human race to protect myself for the future of mankind.
therefor i suggest that those who wear helmets are awesome (much like surf-mat and I) and also that wearing a helmet is a sign of intelligence.
pretty people should be forced to wear full-face helmets as the world must protect the pretty.
(pretty can only be defined using the "Phil's Scale of sexiness" as others opinions on what is pretty will not do)
[url= http://www.phillipshelmets.com/ ]Philips system[/url] Some good discussion on there but remeber the source!
He is now developing a cycle helmet and POC already make one
LHS believes the risk of rotational injury is so low that this is not needed. I am not so sure. Some estimates are as high as 30% of all head impacts the injury is worsened.
However LHS points out that a system such as this adds weight, complexity and cost which is not good
I do try to be reasonable and balanced in discussing this - its a pity the "must wear a helmet at all times" folk cannot do the same
De ja vu? Or have I banged my head?
Who wears headphones whilst riding then? Good idea?
Vu deja - the feeling you are going to be doing this again
I always wear a helmet on and off road. I hadn't heard the rotational injury information before - I'll do some research on this. The car drivers take more care when cyclists don't wear helmets bit I've heard before but I've not stopped wearing the helmet on the road because I choose not to be influenced by the shite behaviour of some car drivers - I think there are ways of 'defensive cycling' that reduce the opportunities for drivers to pass too close.
I think wearing a helmet should be law.
I once went on a ride with a mate who never use to wear a helmet, we was riding down a nice flat grassy downhill and towards the end just about the enter a road he lost control (don’t know how, inexperience I guess) he ended up hitting his head on the edge of the pavement, luckily I had some first aid kit with me until the paramedics arrived... luckily he is ok now but never rides without a helmet.
There is another guy I know, who was in a car crash and was very badly hurt and was attended to on seen by his mum who latterly held his head together with her own hands while she watched her son's life fade away. I know he was in a car but it could easily have been on a bike, and I wouldn’t have want to hold any of my friends or families heads together while they give there agonal breath and likewise I would have wanted the thought of them looking after me.
I have also been in a number of accidents involving landing on my head and destroyed a number of helmets, but I am still here to tell a tail.
So I will never ride myself or ride with anyone without a helmet, or even acknowledge anyone on the trail that is not wearing a helmet...
Please excuse the spelling I am dyslexic, I have used word.