[Closed] "Someone Will Invent A Tubeless Valve That Isn’t Stupid"

The valve core tends to pick up latex, and then eventually instead of moving up and down, just sticks, at which point either you can't get air in, or you can't stop it getting out.

The other really annoying thing is when the valve core unscrews with the pump, if you've got one of those screw-on pump heads (I have).

But you can fix that by just tightening it down, unless you don't have a multitool, in which case you can just flag down a passing cyclist until you find someone who does.

I haven't met a stupid tubeless valve yet. They just work. (17yrs of use)

The valve core tends to pick up latex, and then eventually instead of moving up and down, just sticks, at which point either you can't get air in, or you can't stop it getting out.

Milkit have that solved with their valves.

But you can fix that by just tightening it down, unless you don't have a multitool, in which case you can just flag down a passing cyclist until you find someone who does.

Milkit valves come with a valve core tool that resides on the valve stem so that you never forget it.

(I quite like milkit valves)

I think Schrader would work better but my rims are drilled for presta and presta works OK so meh

Mine seem ok, I do wash em a bit though.

Quick wipe of Vaseline when installing stops them getting bunged up.

They're not perfect, but the removable core sorted most of the original issues and the little Park Tool valve core removal tool makes removing and installing them straightforward. They do get gunked up over time, but it's easy enough to swap for a new core and you can clean the old one either by soaking in acetone or carefully unscrewing the nubbin thing past its stop point and just scraping the old stuff off from the tube and innards.

I guess some of them could seal better to the rim.

On balance, i'd rather someone came up with a better alternative to taping up rims which is infinitely more of a pain in the backside. It could also maybe incorporate an integral valve.

It would be nice to have one where you don't have to remove the core that itself restricts the fast airflow that's needed when trying to get the tyres up initially. ie one where it has better open/wider flow with the valve held up and clear.

They are a pain.

The lockring can seize on when needing to swap to an inner tube on the trail.
The head is easily bent with minipumps, or even track pumps with a cam-over lever.
The core unscrews when you don't want it to, or blocks up.
The head sometimes punches through the dust cap.
There are at least two variants of tubeless valves.

Design me a Schrader style valve that fits in a presta hole, and here's the tough bit...that works with existing multi-head pumps 🙂

Edit: And what he said ^ bigger hole for more airflow!

On balance, i'd rather someone came up with a better alternative to taping up rims which is infinitely more of a pain in the backside

UST rims, or Bontrager TLR wheels and rim strips?

On balance, i'd rather someone came up with a better alternative to taping up rims which is infinitely more of a pain in the backside. It could also maybe incorporate an integral valve.

This exists, but with it's own issues. UST as a standard gives a much better bead interface and solves tape once and for all but currently cuts wheel options dramatically. UST tyres also limit choice and increase cost and weight (necessary in true UST due to the extra layers)

The rubber rim strip with integral valve also solves the problems. Several exist. I have a pair that have been happy for years from my first tubeless conversion when I was scared of taping due to FUD.

Both these options contain all the standard potential valve faults though, so while they solve taping they don't really answer the original question.

Use Schrader?

Of all the issues folk have listed.

Most of them can be rectified by not being an eejit 🙂

My gripe with tubeless valves comes down to cost.

Why does a presta valved tube cost 4 quid and the valve alone cost 5......

In the early 2000s we used home made rim strips out of a 20inch tube split down the centre and stretched round the rim...... Fit tire use liquid latex and glitter (or sealant these days) and then inflate using the compressor.

Worked well

This:

[img] [/img]

And this:

[img] [/img]

I thank u!

ooh Milkit looks ace but OMG it's a little pricey

You can buy the Milkit valvestems on their own (pretty standard pricing compared to other brands), but you miss out on the clever bits that set them apart if you don’t go for the kit.

Big black shed.

Many of my rims don't have a big enough rim bed for those monstrosities so not that simple I'm afraid.

Of all the issues folk have listed.

Most of them can be rectified by not being an eejit

Thanks all, the Milkit kit does look good but a lot going on and probably more than the project I had in mind.

Spooky's quote "Design me a Schrader style valve that fits in a presta hole" sounds interesting; I'll fire up my CAD tomorrow and paste something up on here for review

You've worked in a bike shop. You must know the mechanical abilities of the average bike owner. Now just concentrate on those who fall below that average.....

Was giving this mob the benifit of the doubt.... Perhaps I over estimated them 🙂

I honestly have no issues with presta.

They're easy to clean if you wind the nut past their stop, and in 18 years riding, I can't think I've broken more than two. I don't even bother with dust caps for them.

I can only conclude that those that have such terrible problems are either eejuts, lacking in mechanical sympathy or super anal types.

Can’t see much issue with the current ones apart from cost

If you store your bike with the valves at the 6 o'clock position, the sealant won't collect in the valve, so it won't block it.

I run a couple of ghetto setups on the kids bikes with schrader valves and to be honest, the lack of a mechanical closure makes them extremely frustrating.
Same as with presta, goo can dry up on the core, however with a presta, you can overcome any air leakage with your fingers and tightening the knurled nut just a little more.. not so with schrader.. once the spring loaded valve gets gummed up, you have to remove the core or if on the trail without tools, over inflate the tyre in the hope that the higher pressure will stop the valve leaking.

Most of them can be rectified by not being an eejit

bearback makes a very good point about schrader relying on a spring to seal, and presta using a superior external nut.

Schrader only here. Stick another schrader core in when adding fluid if it looks gummed, they cost a few pence, though I rarely have to.

Never had problems with leaking on the trail (family of 4x schrader tubeless mtb) though we also use metal value caps with a rubber seal.

Drilling a new £80 rim is probably the hardest part though I've got over it.

Had a detailed discussion about this exact thing a while back on a ride with a chap from a parts brand who make rims and tubeless kit. I'd been thinking same thing and had a solution in mind, but it's not easy to make a real improvement. Sealant in small mechanisms and small spaces is the issue. Schrader wouldn't do well there. It also needs to weigh very little. For now, treating valves as throw away parts and carrying a spare seems to work.

The main problem is the bonkers pricing. They can be sourced for not much at all.

Schrader wouldn't do well there

Only issue I've had with tubeless is the rear wheel on my fatty. Tried to tape it up with 50mm tape and it would come unstuck within days. Came to the conclusion that it was overlapping the tape, as it wasn't wide enough to cover the rim bed, that was allowing the sealant underneath to break down the adhesive and cause the problem.

I went back to a tube with sealant in as at the time I wasn't prepared to pay the extortionate cost for the 75mm tape it needed.

Of all the issues folk have listed.
Most of them can be rectified by not being an eejit

Lack of experience can't be labelled as being "being an eejit".

Is that standard LBS attitude? Not surprised they're struggling if so.

Presta valves are unecessarily fragile and should've been ditched years ago.

Be happy with Schrader valves all round, how can they not work with a rim bed my narrowest rims are 25mm internal now

Schrader here too. Always remove the core before adding sealant and never had any issues. I’ve broken Presta valves because I’m a cack handed fool and they are delicate

Such a thing already exists. Schrader valves solve all of these problems. The only issue is rims don't come drilled for Schrader valves.

My main gripe with Presta is the tendency for the valve core to unscrew with decent screw on pumps. This is easily remedied by not using the same threads for the valve core and the pump (that really is dumb if you think about it). Schrader doesn't do this.

My other gripe is the tendency to bend and eventually snap the valve core. Schrader wins again here.

Also Schrader is wider which allows better peak flow of air and the core is removable with a tool just as easily as Presta valves.

So really the only problem is the rims aren't drilled for Schrader - when they are the issue goes away.

I have drilled a few cheap rims for Schrader but haven't done so on more expensive carbon ones mainly because Presta does work OK.

Honestly wouldn't make the top 50 of things that could be better designed on a bike. Just sticking a cut out valve from an inner tube in works fine, and you can buy separate valves if you really want to go upmarket. Not a problem worthy of the OP's time and skills.

I buy spare cores off eBay bag of 10 was about £3 posted 'no brainier' if one clogs/snaps replace it & carry spares.
When not in use keep the valves at the top of the wheels this should keep them away from sealant.
On deep section carbon rims like mine schrader won't work anyhow you can't buy extra long ones !

Carry a proper tool,a pair of small pliers or a Gerber style multi tool,so you've something to get at the valve core.
Seems crazy people spend huge sums on a bike but can't fit a frame bag for a few essential tools,of course it doesn't look 'cool' so just borrow a mates tools or push then

When not in use keep the valves at the top of the wheels this should keep them away from sealant.

Surely the opposite. With the valve at the bottom any sealant will fall away from the valve to the tyre.

Valves of any sort which actually seal to rims would be a blessing.

I've lost count of the number of hours lost to leaky tubeless setups where the valve(s off various types) will not quite seal to the rim. Maybe its just me, maybe it's my taping, maybe it's the rims, annoying as hell though.

I never had this problem with UST.

UST rims are great and yes reduce wheel options but errr.... Specific rims tend to do that.

Schrader valves don't solve the gunking up problem ime. Vaseline sounds like it would help though. Maybe Teflon coating or something might also stop tubeless bogies sticking but it's a basic problem you can't avoid if you have sealant.

dangeourbrain - Member

Valves of any sort which actually seal to rims would be a blessing.

I've lost count of the number of hours lost to leaky tubeless setups where the valve(s off various types) will not quite seal to the rim. Maybe its just me, maybe it's my taping, maybe it's the rims, annoying as hell though.

I never had this problem with UST.

when your out on the trail with gloves on and it's wet and your trying to pump a tyre up and bend the valve

You're not inept, you're cack handed.

Schrader valves don't solve the gunking up problem

I cant see how any valve real or imaginary can avoid this. Tubeless fluid is designed to gunk things up - if it didn't it wouldn't work. Its never happened to me but if it did it would take me 5 minutes to fix. Core out - Gunk Out - continue.

On deep section carbon rims like mine schrader won't work anyhow you can't buy extra long ones !

Gap in the market
OP - make some of these - I will be your first customer!

when your out on the trail with gloves on and it's wet and your trying to pump a tyre up and bend the valve
You're not inept, you're cack handed.

never done this myself up until 2 weeks ago on a snowy night ride when an aluminium Vittoria valve snapped during pumping leaving no thread for the core. If the OP is looking for some design guidance then stick with brass for the material. I also found that - so far at least - DIY valves made from surplus inner tubes seem as effective as the bespoke ones so have now added a couple of spares to my tool bags

Mavic's UST valve was the original strand-you-in-the-hills-miles-from-home, though. Quite a big locknut that was very prone to corroding onto the valve. You'd rue the day if you puntured without a set of pliers on you [actually two sets to get it off].

At least i could get to the hills inthe first place though! (And the stuck lock ring certainly wasn't/isn't specific to mavic)

I had a very peculiar Presta failure out on the trails over Christmas which could have been due to cold weather.

While adding air with my screw on Layzene minipump the valve core snapped in half. Not the thin plunger bit in the middle but the outer threaded bit.

This left one half of the core threaded into the valve and the other half threaded into the pump (tyre still inflated). the 2 halves were held together by the still intact thin metal plunger bit meaning I couldent remove the pump.

After much head scratching I decided to try to snap the thin plunger to remove the pump and leave the tyre inflated. But no amount of waggling could achieve this. It turns out they only like to break on their own terms! In the end the only option was to cable tie the pump to the spokes, ride home and then chop it off with a hacksaw.

I did manage to tease out the 2 halves saving the pump and the valve stem and fit a new core.

But it was a right faff

SCHRADER!!!!!!!!

I drill all my rims for Schrader valves because feeble roadie Prestas can get in the ****ing sea. I usually use a split BMX tube for tubeless but slightly longer threaded Schraders with a domed rubber washer/seal to sit in the rim well would be nice.

ndthornton - exactly what happened to me, also with a lezyne pump.

Honestly wouldn't make the top 50 of things that could be better designed on a bike

I disagree and would be interesed to see the list of the 50 things more important that realiably maintaining air pressure in tyres - it's definitely worthy of design effort

I hate the stupid little Presta valves and did think about designing an alloy Schraeder valve like [url= https://www.notubes.com/valve-stem-pair-universal-schrader-32mm-10mm-base ]THESE[/url] (I'm assuming they're not alloy) so there was no significant weight disadvantage but tooling up and production minimums would be significant and most people don't have a real problem with the Prestas so wouldn't see the need to move over and it'd be a long hard slog to sell them

Having said that people do love new standards.*

*lol

A ghetto fix for gunked-up vale cores is to file the top of the screw thread off (the bit on the left of this pic).

[img] [/img]

You can then (carefully) undo the tiny nut and take the rod and O-ring out of the middle of the valve to de-gunk it completely. Carrying a spare valve core works too, obvs.

I do think, rereading the above, that this is a problem that needs a more elegant solution. The e-13 ones look interesting - anyone used them?

[img] [/img]

simons_nicolai-uk - Member

When not in use keep the valves at the top of the wheels this should keep them away from sealant.
Surely the opposite. With the valve at the bottom any sealant will fall away from the valve to the tyre.

POSTED 3 HOURS AGO #

Depends how much sealant is in the wheel, surely? I'm not convinced that any orientation would solve the issue though as the sealant will tend to sit in the mechanism once it's there if left static due to surface tension. Overall, spinning the wheels regularly is probably the 'fix' that doesn't involve a redesign IMO.

"Someone Will Invent A new Tubeless Valve standard that is incompatible with all existing designs, massively boosting sales of pumps and pressure gauges that work with the new valve"

[i]Gravity must work differently in your world [/i]

Works the same for me. Unless your sealant is a very deep pool!

Most reliable for me were the Mavic UST that came with the rims. The rubber bit sat inside the rim and didn't rotate, there was a rubber seal on the outside then the lockring. 100% reliable - although difficult to get off if you had a puncture and the rubber ring split easily.
Like this
[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]

Removable core is ok, but can come undone with the pump (if screw on head, of course). The tool for removing cores is rubbish too, so I liked to add sealant via the tyre and use non-removable cores.

That said, I've used Caffelatex ones on my road/cross wheels and they've been fine.

"Someone Will Invent A new Tubeless Valve standard that is incompatible with all existing designs, massively boosting sales of pumps and pressure gauges that work with the new valve"

Sounds like everything ever made by specialized so I reckon they would have a go at making a tubeless valve to suit your requirements !

I have the e-13 valves, they haven't gunked up yet (though thats not to say they wont) and they are just about big enough to clean with a cotton bud when you have the core out.

you can use a spoke key to remove your valve core... (one of the round multi slot keys i have)

Thanks all, quite a popular topic!

I would also be interested in hear the 50 more pressing issues but an appeal of this little part is that its a turned metal thing so requires now mould tooling etc. I.E. I can have a dabble.

I'll design a Schrader and go from there...

mlbaker - Member
Thanks all, quite a popular topic!

I would also be interested in hear the 50 more pressing issues but an appeal of this little part is that its a turned metal thing so requires now mould tooling etc. I.E. I can have a dabble.

I'll design a Schrader and go from there...

The tube doesn't need moulding but the rubber bung to seal the inside of the rim does. Unless you can find an off the shelf rubber cone of the right size for the job. I wouldn't even know where to start looking for such a thing.

No one here is looking at this properly, all you're doing is tweaking an existing design.

If you want to "Invent A Tubeless Valve That Isn’t Stupid" then you need to start from scratch.

No one here is looking at this properly, all you're doing is tweaking an existing design.
If you want to "Invent A Tubeless Valve That Isn’t Stupid" then you need to start from scratch.

Maybe. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with the Presta valve - excluding tubless they're a good solution. So the issues become
- how do you stop the valve gubbins getting gummed up with tubeless sealant
- how do you get tubeless sealant into the tyre

Milkit seems to address both of those without losing compatibility with existing pumps. (my concern would whether the small pipe works with lumpy sealant)

I've used milKit for over a year now, the only sealant I've found so far that doesn't go through the syringe is a the extra chunky Stans race stuff.

Standard Stans, Cafe Effreto, Joes, Conti Revoseal, Orange Seal OKO/Nutrak and Peaty's have all gone through no problem on mine and mates' bikes.

[i]you need to start from scratch.[/i]

But invent something with the same valve head to fit existing pumps...

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with the Presta valve - excluding tubless they're a good solution.

but they are less robust than schrader, without a single benefit

and as I understand it schrader is older than presta

its VHS, vs Betamax

Jobst Brandt said:

[i]In the past, sports and racing bicycles used Presta valves because they are slender and enabled racers to inflate tires with a simple pump with attached chuck (pump head) and no hose. Presta valves are easier to pump than Schrader, because they have no valve spring to overcome.

The small diameter of the Presta valve requires a smaller hole in the rim, whose size is important for narrow rims where cross sectional strength of is significantly reduced by a stem hole. In narrow rims, clincher tires also leave insufficient space between tire beads for larger Schrader valves.[/i]

So it's mtb inheriting roadie stuff again.

Hm, and where did mtb get it all from in the first place?

Up until really very recently, rims were quite narrow for mtb’s also. A couple of years ago 21mm was super wide.

Presta did also have advantages for higher pressures I believe, but that’s not really a mtb selling point.

[i]Hm, and where did mtb get it all from in the first place?[/i]

I think that's what I said?
Gradually mtb has moved away from the roadie stuff, narrow bars, wheels, tyres, long stems, caliper brakes, so maybe this thread is the epiphany about valves!

How about two "valves"? One for air and one for gloop. With the gloop valve also usable as a big(ger) port for easy bead-setting inflation.

How about two "valves"? One for air and one for gloop. With the gloop valve also usable as a big(ger) port for easy bead-setting inflation.

and then just have a milkit style 'alien mouth' to stop gunk getting into the valve. How do you let air out of milkit - why doesn't the internal cover on the valve stop the air coming out?

The milKit valves have a long hollow tube running from the valve core.

When the valve core is screwed shut this tube is drawn up into the valve stem away from the petal valve allowing it to close, preventing sealant from getting in.

When the valve core is opened and pressed the hollow tube is pushed through the petal valve allowing air to escape as per a normal presta valve.

Because the tube breaks through the valve when opened even if a skin of sealant had formed over the petal valve, opening the valve stem will clear and break through it.

[img] [/img]

I’ve also had that infuriating thing where a screw-on Lezyne pump snaps your valve core in half.