He seems to be in a different league. Simon Yates said "He's not even breathing, everyone else is panting like they're on their deathbeds". To me that phrase means that Yates is saying he's doping. Are Roglic's performances too good to be true?
Wait, after the last couple of weeks it's Roglic you think might be doping?
He almost lost it yesterday withouth WvA towing him back, and Yates was the one who beat him!
I actually reckon he seems most of human out of all the recent Classics and Grand Tour winners...
The same Simon Yates who out rode Roglic to win the final stage, without a team mate to help him? The same Simon Yates who was only 29 seconds behind Roglic in the final general classification?
both him and Pogacar are looking mightily impressive. I mean like ridiculously impressive.
Do i think they're doping... not necessarily.
And Podgy? Rides away from a group of the best climbers in the protour? Yes, they all sat and looked at each other when he attacked and yes, there are many variables we will not be aware of. However, the fact they all said they could not follow when he made his move suggests they were on the rivet anyway. Stunning performance, stunning physiological attributes and he is only 23!
Hyperbaric training for Pogacar I hear.
Hyperbaric training for Pogacar I hear.
Ah, some pseudo-science bollocks story to lend him some plausible deniability. (*cough* marginal gains)
Hyperbaric training for Pogacar I hear.
But you'd assume all the others and all the teams have access to this anyway ? Certainly at World level.
I just watch it with an air of naivety, it’s more enjoyable.
They're both very very good, but not infallible.
I guess the best thing to do is look at the history of professional cycling and ask how many amazing performances turned out to be helped along by chemical enhancements? Road cycling fetishes suffering and the art of the lone rider breakaway holding off the peloton. I would love to believe the peloton rides clean but I believe I would be just kidding myself by ignoring everything that has happened in road cycling up until this point.
So to answer the question, I reckon there an awful lot of performances that are too good to be true and will continue to be. The only way this will perhaps begin to change is if the reset button is hit and everyone who has ever been popped for doping is banned for life for having anything to do with the sport. Unfortunately, I don’t see that happening any time soon.
Cheers
Sanny
both him and Pogacar are looking mightily impressive. I mean like ridiculously impressive.
Do i think they’re doping… not necessarily.
There's definitely a very small group of young riders suddenly seeming to be a noticeable step ahead of the rest. Given the history of the sport, people are bound to be suspicious, and in this social media age the tittle tattle starts.
Maybe they've got incredible genetic potential, found a training/diet/recovery sweets pot, maybe there's a mad scientist in a laboratory behind it all. I don't know.
I also don't really care any more. I don't look up to them any more than I look up to the guy who comes last in a pro race - both are so far beyond my abilities they might as well be superhuman. Maybe if I was a 12 year old who idolised them I'd feel differently, and I guess there is the role model issue, but it's professional sport, win at all costs, for my entertainment.
Maybe coming from a bodybuilding and power sports background drug use in other sports doesn’t shock me. I've seen what illegal performance enhancers have done to friends, their lives, their choice.
"When Pogačar accelerated, it was out of this world"- Mikel Landa, a couple of days ago.
I assume that that phrasing is totally deliberate and we all know what it means.
I happen to agree with Landa's assessment but like others on this thread I just watch it for what it is and am not hugely emotionally invested. Having said that, I suppose there are some riders who I like and respect for whatever various reasons and if they were revealed to be doping I would be disappointed.
I can’t know what others are taking
But even without doping there are winners and losers
Some stats to be getting on with
Won 8 of his last 9 stage races
Won 10 of the 16 stage races he's started as a pro
Placed in the top 10 in 15 of 16 races he's started as a pro
He's never DNF'd a UCI race as a pro.
I wonder what the impact would be of someone spending their entire childhood in a reasonably well documented (effectively) state-sponsored doping program for Olympic sports; then leaving and switching to a pure endurance sport like cycling.
Even if clean from there-on, once the strict doping regimens come into play, I wonder if you might appear to have unreasonable strength for your age?
Cough
Until proven otherwise I’m hoping this is just the next generation of cyclists reaping the benefits from having well understood nutrition and training plans from a really early age and being able to execute that.
Simon Yates said “He’s not even breathing, everyone else is panting like they’re on their deathbeds”. To me that phrase means that Yates is saying he’s doping.
“When Pogačar accelerated, it was out of this world”- Mikel Landa, a couple of days ago.
I assume that that phrasing is totally deliberate and we all know what it means.
Since we're setting a very law bar for any sort of actual evidence-based accusation, I'd just like to throw in that Roglic is quoted in a Cycling News story saying: "Big thanks to my whole team, especially Wout [Van Aert] at the end. He's half-human, half-motor."
I think we all know what that means... 😉
He has an ebike?
Who really cares, elite sport across disciplines is full of doping, footballers regularly have blood taken when injured, then spun and infused back in. Rugby, you're telling me a 15st winger can run that fast on grass naturally, let alone a 6ftt odd 17 / 18st No.8 or 2nd row sprinting in for a try, come on.
Marathon runners knocking out stupidly fast time on all conditions, Bi-athletes, X-Country skiers, we all know about track & field. It's not a case of who is doping, it's a case of who is caught.
It’s not a case of who is doping, it’s a case of who is caught.
It's not a case of who is doping, it's a case of who has found the next wonder dope and when the rest will catch up.
Cough
Hmm, you sound like you could use an inhaler.
Perhaps just having the very best team around him to get him where he needs to be? Picking up Rohan Dennis was genius - yet another motor of a human to drag him along.
Hmm, you sound like you could use an inhaler.
Couldn't we all? (Allegedly)
Couldn’t we all? (Allegedly)
I have several already thanks very much, and not a TUE in sight
Perhaps just having the very best team around him to get him where he needs to be?
Wasn't this a Lance excuse as well? 😀
So to answer the question, I reckon there an awful lot of performances that are too good to be true and will continue to be. The only way this will perhaps begin to change is if the reset button is hit and everyone who has ever been popped for doping is banned for life for having anything to do with the sport. Unfortunately, I don’t see that happening any time soon.
V different sport but... in the recent Winter Olympics it was very noticeable how the Russians were minutes ahead in the cross-country ski races, ahead of a pack that had seconds between them; and yet when it came to sports that involved more skill (say, biathlon - XC skiing and shooting) they were nowhere to be seen. Basically it's pure cardio benefit, and really obvious cardio benefit over and above the Nordics (who are incredibly good at things like skiing).
It's so obvious, and yet the IOC/ WADA finds next to no doping in this group. Some of it feels a bit deliberate (as talked about in Icarus): they don't *want* to find doping. But also testing is such a reactive process: they're only testing for things they know exist, and they only know different doping regimes exist because they've been leaked etc*
*v simplistically of course.
The gap between Pogacar and the rest of the peloton was always the one that left me thinking doping - his TdF performances when he's had no real team in the Sky/ Jumbo Visma/ Astana style, and yet just leaving people in his dust.
It’s not a case of who is doping, it’s a case of who has found the next wonder dope and when the rest will catch up
Naively I like to think that sport are finding the best athletes and with a better understanding of nutrition and training we see the current crop of sports stars across football, rugby and cycling etc.
Saying that, seeing some riders blow over riders out of the water in the last week has had me think WTF!
looked like the Pog was using all the other rider attacks as interval training (@ Tirrenno). And with Almeida riding for him can't see him being beaten at Le tour and is probably a good bet for Milan San Remo at the weekend.
Wasn’t this a Lance excuse as well? 😀
Problem for old Lance-y-boy was that he actually didn't have the best team around him which made it all the more obvious 😛
Problem for old Lance-y-boy was that he actually didn’t have the best team around him which made it all the more obvious
I'm going to correct you again here - he DID have the best team around him but only after they had identified which riders would best react to the epic doping regime. 😀
To me that phrase means that Yates is saying he’s doping.
No it doesn't mean that at all.
The same Simon Yates who was only 29 seconds behind Roglic in the final general classification?
Having lost 22secs on stage 1 with most of the peloton.
Simon 'Terbutaline' Yates accusing people?
I’m going to correct you again here – he DID
OK. OK. I'm roundly defeated in the mockery game - my lesson has been learned. Dammit. Foiled again.
dirtyrider
Free MemberSimon ‘Terbutaline’ Yates accusing people?
Well, no he’s not accusing anyone, nor is terbutaline going to win you a grand tour. He’s also likely still taking it now, but with the correct paperwork in place again
Since we’re setting a very law bar for any sort of actual evidence-based accusation, I’d just like to throw in that Roglic is quoted in a Cycling News story saying: “Big thanks to my whole team, especially Wout [Van Aert] at the end. He’s half-human, half-motor.”
I think we all know what that means… 😉
Take your point but the phrase "out of this world", "on another planet" etc were specifically used by L'Equipe and other French sports newspapers to indicate their view on lance Armstrong's doping back in the 90's (without getting sued) so they are very specifically and deliberately used phrases in pro cycling and my point is Landa also would know this.
A better question might be which pro sportsperson has made it to the top without chemical assistance?
2 pro tour riders like that from a country that has a population the size of 2 Birminghams, 1/6th the size of Belgium. Statistically unlikely but not impossible.
Pog’s performances are simply incredible. Rog, he occasionally looks like he’s in trouble/doesn’t win. He definitely cracked on the final climb yesterday, couldn’t even wipe the dangling spit away.
Yeah for me Roglic looks plausible, Pog however just is not right at all, being able to do what he does against all the top riders in the world just doesn't feel right at all. Like others i have to watch the racing now as a way to see the scenery as if pog is racing i just can't help but be cynical
I quite like this article regarding Pogacar’s physical abilities; of note is how young he was when talent spotted.
https://www.cyclist.co.uk/in-depth/8831/tadej-pogacar-the-man-who-would-be-king
Somewhere in there it talks about how calm he is. Given his age, the effect his calm and confidence can’t be understated, and at this level is a real game changer - it’s something you can’t inhale, inject or ingest in any way; it in his genetics.
Roglic is incredibly good at staying calm even when it seems that he is losing major race, e.g. P-N this Sunday and that battle with Carapaz. Lesser person would have folded in many times no matter how good his team mates were or if he had any left.
Roglic is mighty bloody good but I suspect Pog is a step up again. I guess this year will tell us a lot more
For me Rog has too many falls and just feels a bit try-hard, seemingly pushing his luck sometimes (and needlessly, which doesn't shout "calm" to me)
Pog looks in control pretty much all the time (up and down), which makes me think he's often nowhere near his physiological limit which then allows him to think clearly and keep better perspective
It'll be interesting if we see him really put under pressure, say a time gap after a TTT or maybe a crash - or if he gets ill but he just doesn't seem to do that
I doubt any of them is clean, though
Doping suspicions aside, I much prefer to see Roglič racing. Knowing that no matter how dominant he looks he's just one bad day away from losing adds a bit more excitement.
Pogačar has the same thing that Froome had - not actually a boring racer but ends up making races boring.
GCN racing news show had some amazing stats on the Pog and his general health (and keeping it rubber side down) 36 out of 36 UCI stage races completed!
