[Closed] So, Nibbles...? (GC spoiler if you live on Mars)

I understood that he was, but since the conversation wasn't taking place in English, it's not been getting the same exposure here?

[url= http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/nibali-questioned-on-credibility-of-astana-team ]He has[/url]. Mostly in Italian I think so mostly doesn't get reported here. Given the staff and history at Astana I'd expect there to be a lot of questions.

Ed, I've been following the French press coverage as well. Nowhere near the same intensity of grilling.*

*Bertie Beef Reference again.

He's faced tons of questions, and spoken about it several times - what tour have you been following? I've linked to articles about it on the daily TdF threads several times, although I couldn't really care less what the press thinks about his performance..

Hmmm, maybe I've managed to miss it all then. I know he's on a team with a doper at the helm, which hardly helps, but I just want him to be clean.

What realman said.

..the French press coverage..

Maybe the same reason? (Not been in French either)

Also, I'd have guessed that some of the French riders' performances this year might be the big story, particularly with the race for the yellow not actually having been much of a race?

Because he wouldn't look anything like this good if he was racing against Froome and Contador instead of super domestiques.

Because he wouldn't look anything like this good if he was racing against Froome and Contador instead of super domestiques.

Plus all the [i]jus[/i] in the world wouldn't have led to that amazing ride on the cobbles in those conditions.

Because he wouldn't look anything like this good if he was racing against Froome and Contador instead of super domestiques.

i think this is key. Yes there's a lot of closed mouth, easy climbing going on, effortlessly dropping riders, today being a prime example, but he's not up against the best. There's no way he'd be as dominant against Bertie or Froome.

i think this is key. Yes there's a lot of closed mouth, easy climbing going on, effortlessly dropping riders, today being a prime example, but he's not up against the best. There's no way he'd be as dominant against Bertie or Froome.

I hope this is the case.

I think it's going a bit far to say he's racing against a bunch of super domestiques. It's fair to say he wouldn't have been so strong against Bertie and Froome, given that they both dropped him a month ago. And it's a shame they're not in it to shake things up a bit. But that's two guys. He's still a full 5 minutes ahead of the rest. Assuming he doesn't suffer the same kind of luck as Bertie and Froome, he'll be a deserving winner. The guy has raced fantastically from the start. I take my hat off to him. I was rooting for him from the start though, so I might be a bit biased.

I'd argue that he'd still be winning even if Contador and Froome were still in the race. Given the time deficit when he crashed out, we'd have needed to see some amazing riding from Bertie over the mountain stages to see him give Nibbles a challenge, and to be fair, Saxo appear to have good legs (cough cough) so they may have been able to support this.

For sure he'd be leading Froome though. In comparison to previous Tours, Sky have just been making dirty laundry in this parcours, and Froome wouldn't have been able to fend for himself in the way that Nibali has shown he can.

On another note, I felt sorry for Kiriyenka being made to go up the road today; it seemed to serve no purpose whatsoever and he just looked knackered and forlorn. It's not like Sky need the TV time, is it?

A thread title started with "so"?

Oh dear

Facts.

Nibali was hanging in the Dauphine from a huge training block and getting weight off. That race was the last stage of the training.

Nibali hasn't faced as many accusations as Froome because he was always a super talent rather than a guy who got thrown out of the Giro for hanging onto a car.

Nibali dropped Cancellara etc on cobbles on stage 5....

Contador and Froome couldn't stay upright so they were never in contention.

End of.

Did you see the interview with Alexander Vinokourov on the second rest day? They were asking about doping then and there were references to Astana's (and Vino's) chequered past...

After the interview it cut back to Gary Imlach who said in his wonderfully dry manner:
"It's hard not to wonder whether a pledge from Alexander Vinokourov is worth the French it's mumbled in"

🙂

I was amused by that and pretty much everything else Gary says.

I'd argue that he'd still be winning even if Contador and Froome were still in the race

I'm inclined to agree with that.

Managed to catch up on the highlights of the mountain stages. After Porte popped like a tube of Pringles, Sky have been nowhere to be seen, while Saxo and Astana have been in the mix. This may just be because Sky have lost a few guys, and the wind is out their sails without Mr Cound contending for the GC.

Brailsford has alluded to it too: http://pelotonmagazine.com/feedzone/sky-froome-wouldve-struggled-against-flying-nibali/

We'll never know. Nibali is on fire though.

My concern with Nibali is that he doesn't sweat. He crossed the line yesterday looking as fresh as a daisy, which can't be right. It's too easy for him to put time into the rest of the field and make it look like he's not really trying.

So do the doubters think that Vino is slipping Nibbley the odd crafty syringe or what?

I'm quite inclined to like Nibali. I'm enjoying it enough that the possibility that he isn't clean isn't spoiling it for me, anyway. 🙂

We are saying its too easy but he's not pulled out massive gaps. He's attacked got a gap and then held it. He's not done a Lance and attacked and just kept pulling away to the top.
Anyone got any insight into the power per kg stuff?

[i]Plus all the jus in the world wouldn't have led to that amazing ride on the cobbles in those conditions.[/i]

Zulu, either you have the worlds worst built in irony meter or you really don't read half the things you write.

That article. Where do they get the get the "struggle" bit from? All I can see Brailsford saying it that it would have been "an interesting race" if Froome was there. Been a bit creative there in their headline making.

Using the closed mouth thing as evidence of doping is interesting.
Especially as most famous EPO performances have been fully gasping, painful expressions.
It's often said that climbing on EPO puts more pain into the legs.

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Anyone got any insight into the power per kg stuff?

[url= http://sportsscientists.com/2014/07/tours-first-mountain-finish-quick-take/ ]Here.[/url]

All I can see Brailsford saying it that it would have been "an interesting race" if Froome was there.

I had the feeling Froome was gonna crumble from the outset, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Maybe Sir Dave had the same doubts.

[i]Really [/i]would have liked to see Bertie racing Nibbles though.

Been a bit creative there in their headline making

Americans. Can't trust them.

The photo galleries of the stages on their site are good though.

As much as I can't warm to Froome or Contador, it is a pity they are out. But on the other hand, the race for the other spaces on the podium is getting really interesting.

For sure he'd be leading Froome though. In comparison to previous Tours, Sky have just been making dirty laundry in this parcours, and Froome wouldn't have been able to fend for himself in the way that Nibali has shown he can.

Froome managed to look out for himself on a couple of stages last year. What makes you think he couldn't this year. Their plan was destroyed when Froome went out and Porte had a "chest infection".

I have no idea if Nibali is clean, I hope so. It's sad that we are now so suspicious of great performance, but it's understandable.

I do have to ask myself why, if a rider was clean and proud to be seen to be clean, why Astana would be their choice of team, considering the associations with Armstrong, Contador and Vinokourov?

Considering just about every time he's attacked he's been unable to drop a 37 year old who no one thought would podium his performances aren't mega. I mustn't be watching hard enough, he seems to be sweating/breathing just as hard as everyone else?

I sort of hope that nibbles has just been lucky. No one really was in the the Giro (, Froome, valverde, Contador, shleck, Rodrigues) and Wiggins and Hesjedal crashed out, all he really had to do was finish and everyone's crashed out of the Tour as well

Wasn't he third or fourth last year though?

Considering just about every time he's attacked he's been unable to drop a 37 year old who no one thought would podium his performances aren't mega.

Péraud has been drinking a potion made from Chris Horner's toenail clippings.

Monkeyfudger, you need to be watching it on HD 😉

had the feeling Froome was gonna crumble from the outset, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Maybe Sir Dave had the same doubts.

i dont think he did expect it tbh.

i dont think he did expect it tbh.

Indeed. Until his fall in the Dauphine, Froome looked to be on good form. Froome and Contador looked to be a step ahead of the rest of the field.

Hoping the main GC guys have better luck in the first couple of weeks next year. Quintana, Nibali, Froome and Contador going into the last week, now that would be a Tour.

Article [url= http://in.mobile.reuters.com/article/idINKBN0FQ1UC20140721?irpc=932 ]here[/url] on why Nibbles is getting an easy ride on journos

I think the big factor is that the French are doing so well, so their journos will conclude that this is a sign that things have changed

Since Festina, French riders have faced criminal prosecution for doping, which apparently had quite an effect

Maybe the journos just realised they'd been overdoing it a bit with the constant doping questions the last couple of years?

And the Armstrong fuss has died down a bit now. Seems really obvious and natural to me. Surprised others are surprised.

Interesting Reuters article there...

It took until last Thursday for the first question about drugs to confront Nibali, who eight years ago when cycling's doping 'Omerta' was still firmly in place said cheats should be locked up.

Which makes going to work with Vino and Astana even more puzzling.

I guess pragmatism of needing to be in a team capable of supporting a GT win could possibly explain it for the less cynical.

Sky don't seem to have had the depth to rely on the 'Sky train to final climb then launch' tactic this year, in any case. Nibbles seems to have ridden pretty intelligently and been able to think and ride for himself. It's been a good year so far and a welcome change from the years of star riders with a mass of foot soldiers being put to the sword.

I do have to ask myself why, if a rider was clean and proud to be seen to be clean, why Astana would be their choice of team, considering the associations with Armstrong, Contador and Vinokourov?

The contracts these guys get seem to be laughable compared to footballers, or even the cricketers! Perhaps he needs to be pragmatic and needs to make money while the sun is shining? Team sponsors seem to be drying up at an alarming rate.

I'd be really interested in seeing what the contract pays. Not endorsements and add-ons, but just what a team like maybe Belkin or IAM pay their riders.

People go on about Wiggins making a few million in his TdF winning year. A top 10 tennis player will bank that in a year in just prize money, with some of the guys banking 10s of millions in a year with endorsements. Perhaps we need to consider this before making statements that cyclists need to be whiter than white.

Sky don't seem to have had the depth to rely on the 'Sky train to final climb then launch' tactic this year

The fact that no team has been desperate to control the pace has meant the stages have been far more exiting, even if the Yellow Jersey hasn't been in doubt since Bertie crashed. We have riders going off the front as well as being shelled out of the back.

How it will have played out if Froome and Bertie hadn't crashed out we will never know. I agree that it's unlikely that Sky would have been able to set the pace as they did in the last 2 years, Tinko maybe, but on top form both riders should have been able to keep up with Nibbles attacks. One thing to remember is that part of the reason for Bertie's crash was that he was forced to take risks because of Nibble's lead, so who knows

Ohh look, yet another thread about speculation and conjecture.

Gotta love these 🙄

So why do you post in every single one of them bikebouy?

speculation and conjecture has done pretty well for a lot of us.
Look at Di Luca as recently as the 2013 Giro.
I didn't need the later positive test to know exactly what was going on.
Menchov
JTL
Kreuziger

Thankfully these have been proved by positive tests (ongoing investigation in the case of Kreuziger), but there are a few others I think have slipped under the net.

Shleck for one.

I'm willing to give Nibbles the benefit of the doubt, even if Astana are a bit dodgy.

On the other hand, it would be a real Piti if certain people end up on the podium.

I saw an interesting assertion on Twitter. Gaps will be bigger without doping because with doping makes it easier for riders to achieve a similar level. Dunno if that makes sense.

As for Vino, well I'm not sure that a zero tolerance approach to past misdemeanours is workable or even desirable.

Did Vino ever explain those payments to Ferrari or did he just keep it zipped

Perhaps we need to consider this before making statements that cyclists need to be whiter than white.

I think it's right to expect a gold standard, whiter than white. It certainly won't happen if we don't expect it. (It might not if we do, but there's a chance!)

In professional sport, a cheat is a thief, they are stealing prize money from the non-cheat. It matters I think.

I don't see that how much they earn relative to other sports is material.

I saw an interesting assertion on Twitter. Gaps will be bigger without doping because with doping makes it easier for riders to achieve a similar level. Dunno if that makes sense.

One could also observe that gaps would be bigger if some were doping and others were clean.

As for Vino, well I'm not sure that a zero tolerance approach to past misdemeanours is workable or even desirable.

Sure it would. Sack the cheats, the clean talent would bubble up to the top.

Im glad the french are having a good tour, they are still at the pointy end when many have failed to finish. But had Froome and Contador rememebered how to keep the bike the right way up then the top 3 would have been Froome, Contador, Nibali in one order or another relegating the french guys a little.

I can't see how cycling can sort itself out until they ban caught drug cheats from team management.

I stopped watching this year as soon as I saw Nibali crest the first top finish with his thumb in his mouth after destroying Purito who said he was on a good day. I have never seen anyone in a race (or chain gang) for that matter be able to do this. I don't think I am alone in this.

My tuppence, everything looks towards him being clean, apart from riding for Astana.

Sure it would. Sack the cheats, the clean talent would bubble up to the top.

+1

Hopefully in the next couple of years the teams won't be making decisions between former dopers and non-dopers for leaders as they pass their prime and the newer (cleaner?) riders step up, then it'll be choices between older dopers or giving younger riders a chance as domestiques and form a PR perspective that's more of a no brainer.

Ohh look, yet another thread about speculation and conjecture.

Have you not been to the internet before? 🙂

I think it's right to expect a gold standard, whiter than white. It certainly won't happen if we don't expect it. (It might not if we do, but there's a chance!)

Spectators can demand it, but the guy riding the bike has to put food on the table.

If it were a choice between keeping my principles intact versus riding with a team that would offer me the best chance at winning (or better pay) with slightly compromised morals then I know which one I'd take.

Changes are not going to happen overnight and until they do the riders still have to make a living.

I stopped watching this year as soon as I saw Nibali crest the first top finish with his thumb in his mouth after destroying Purito who said he was on a good day. I have never seen anyone in a race (or chain gang) for that matter be able to do this

Do you mean you've never seen anyone beat Purito? 8 riders beat him that day.

speculation and conjecture has done pretty well for a lot of us.
Look at Di Luca as recently as the 2013 Giro.
I didn't need the later positive test to know exactly what was going on.
Menchov
JTL
Kreuziger

But there's nothing to suggest Nibali is doping, other than the fact he's winning. (and that he rides for Astana)

A lot of the time he has on other riders was made up on a cobbled stage that everyone said he never had the skills to ride. He seized stage 2 with an optimistic break for line, gaining a few seconds when he left everyone else looking at each other. He's taken every opportunity to gain time, not all of it has been down to physical strength.

Heh, Vino was blatantly at it for so long, and yet I find it hard to dislike him, he added a whole load of entertainment value. Mostly recently when Jill Douglas announced him as a very popular winner at the Olympics.

That said, it's hard to justify his involvement as a team manager given the sport is trying so hard to get rid of the dopers. It doesn't send a good message. But if you suddenly kicked everyone in management with any doping history there wouldn't be many of them left.

But there's nothing to suggest Nibali is doping, other than the fact he's winning. (and that he rides for Astana)

A lot of the time he has on other riders was made up on a cobbled stage that everyone said he never had the skills to ride. He seized stage 2 with an optimistic break for line, gaining a few seconds when he left everyone else looking at each other. He's taken every opportunity to gain time, not all of it has been down to physical strength.

This is spot on. He's always been a GT contender and indeed has won the Giro and the Vuelta. He's only looking so good because he has a strong team, is making small attacks near the end of stages after being protected, isn't riding against his main opponents and he got most of his time on the cobbles.

Spectators can demand it, but the guy riding the bike has to put food on the table.

A rider cheating on the bike is taking food off the table of the rider riding clean.

But there's nothing to suggest Nibali is doping, other than the fact he's winning. (and that he rides for Astana)

I enjoy watching the fight between the breakaway riders though, and also the 'best French finisher' race.

A rider cheating on the bike is taking food off the table of the rider riding clean.

Not disagreeing with you there.

However, even clean riders have to take the opportunities coming their way. Gift horse and all that.

I have a lot of empathy for a young rider facing the choice "dope or quit the career of your dreams". What a horrible situation. But who's responsible for that? Established dopers and any party tolerant of the status quo.

Been watching it today. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. 😐

put him with contador and froome and he would have looked a lot less impressive, for what that's worth.

I too didn't bother watching it after the domination by Nibs. Partly because I can't get away with watching it at work, but also because its (to me) quite obvious that all is not what it should be.

In his defense, the crux of the competition have fallen by the wayside - I'm not so sure Contador would have put up much of a fight as he's not been amazing since the ban. Froome....well, he didn't look confident at the start, less so when he open palmed the back top. So its not like Nibs has had that much competition (Teejay Van doo dah....seriously?).

BUT he rides for Astana and vinko, he repeatedly puts in crazy attacks day after day (I was on the understanding that doping makes recovery quicker) and the margin is so great.

Who knows, but this is the first tour in years I haven't bothered watching.

I'm not so sure Contador would have put up much of a fight as he's not been amazing since the ban.

Eh? Did you see Contador racing earlier this season? Looked on absolutely tip top form. There's good reason everyone was talking about Froome and Contador going into this race.

Contador was the red-hot favourite and showed Froome up good and proper in the Dauphine.

It would've been awesome to see him and Nibali racing up and down hill in the Tour.

Do you mean you've never seen anyone beat Purito?

Obviously not, no.

Generally crushing the field on a climb with mountain top finish and sticking your hand in your mouth for the last 50 metres you don't see every day or in my case never. I'll try it next race without the mountain top or the crushing bit and let you know how I get on.

I've been thinking for a few days that I really can't believe he is clean. I've just finished Christophe Bassons book, now I definitely can't, there are too many new drugs that cannot be tested for at this point.

As Bassons says though most cyclists and fans are generally hoping for the best and cheer the effort, this tour I just shake my head a little too

he repeatedly puts in crazy attacks day after day

his crazy attacks last about a minute at most.

and the margin is so great.

you are clutching at straws tbh and you argument is look he is the best therefore he must be cheating.

sticking your hand in your mouth for the last 50 metres

That might just be the daftest "evidence" of doping I've heard yet. Has anyone performed an in depth analysis of his jawline?

Jumble do you ride in the Pro Tour then? I only ask as I'm wondering what relevance your racing has to Nibali's?

I have no idea where or who he rides with if he thinks no one has ever attacked and just cycled away from the rest up a steep hill EVER at any level.

Nibali is head and shoulders above this Tour, a complete transformation from his 'getting dropped the first time it kicked off' days with Cannondale...

From what I've seen, he has a commanding lead at least as much due to astute tactical riding as to better legs - it's not how devastatingly strong he's been, but how and when he's chosen to deploy the strength he has.

I want to believe.

Fair play Astana, they have ridden brilliantly.

Jumble do you ride in the Pro Tour then? I only ask as I'm wondering what relevance your racing has to Nibali's?

No I don't ride in the Pro Tour. Here is my logic...

I don't know Nibali's ftp or his power figures for that climb. But we can use Perceived Rate of Exertion to have an idea about how hard he is working. Nibali has the same energy systems I have and in the 3 races which I have been in with current Pro Tour riders they all rode a lot faster than me and all looked as bollox-ed as me at the end. So this makes me think PRE is a good scale for all of us.

So at the top of that climb he stuck his hand in his mouth and continued his climb. For me that puts him in the lower PRE scale whilst everyone else was in the higher scale from what I saw.

This makes we wonder why the difference.

That is my logic. Complete conjecture.

From what I've seen, he has a commanding lead at least as much due to astute tactical riding as to better legs - it's not how devastatingly strong he's been, but how and when he's chosen to deploy the strength he has.

I think this is mostly true. Thing is that Nibali can jump away from the bunch of GC riders and no one is going bury themselves to chase as they are all busy racing each other, not Nibali. Once he's got the gap then he can ride at his own pace (and doesn't usually then pull out a massive gap.) Behind him the rest of the GC riders have their own race, watch each other, attack each other, the pace goes up and down, all the time Nibali is just tapping out his own tempo up front. That couple of minutes he went into the Voges with put him in a very strong tactical position. No one's really been racing him since Contador crashed out.

And where he's flown past riders on a final climb, it's usually because they've been out in a long break and are cooked and he's been ensconced in an Astana cocoon all day.

FML. Why do we have to do this every year. He's winning = doping, brilliant. Why even bother. If Froome/Contador were there nobody would say a word about him and you'd all be frothing about FoomTador. The reasons for his doping this year have been comical though, cheers.