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speculation and conjecture has done pretty well for a lot of us.
Look at Di Luca as recently as the 2013 Giro.
I didn't need the later positive test to know exactly what was going on.
Menchov
JTL
Kreuziger
Thankfully these have been proved by positive tests (ongoing investigation in the case of Kreuziger), but there are a few others I think have slipped under the net.
Shleck for one.
I'm willing to give Nibbles the benefit of the doubt, even if Astana are a bit dodgy.
On the other hand, it would be a real Piti if certain people end up on the podium.
I saw an interesting assertion on Twitter. Gaps will be bigger without doping because with doping makes it easier for riders to achieve a similar level. Dunno if that makes sense.
As for Vino, well I'm not sure that a zero tolerance approach to past misdemeanours is workable or even desirable.
Did Vino ever explain those payments to Ferrari or did he just keep it zipped
Perhaps we need to consider this before making statements that cyclists need to be whiter than white.
I think it's right to expect a gold standard, whiter than white. It certainly won't happen if we don't expect it. (It might not if we do, but there's a chance!)
In professional sport, a cheat is a thief, they are stealing prize money from the non-cheat. It matters I think.
I don't see that how much they earn relative to other sports is material.
I saw an interesting assertion on Twitter. Gaps will be bigger without doping because with doping makes it easier for riders to achieve a similar level. Dunno if that makes sense.
One could also observe that gaps would be bigger if some were doping and others were clean.
As for Vino, well I'm not sure that a zero tolerance approach to past misdemeanours is workable or even desirable.
Sure it would. Sack the cheats, the clean talent would bubble up to the top.
Im glad the french are having a good tour, they are still at the pointy end when many have failed to finish. But had Froome and Contador rememebered how to keep the bike the right way up then the top 3 would have been Froome, Contador, Nibali in one order or another relegating the french guys a little.
I can't see how cycling can sort itself out until they ban caught drug cheats from team management.
I stopped watching this year as soon as I saw Nibali crest the first top finish with his thumb in his mouth after destroying Purito who said he was on a good day. I have never seen anyone in a race (or chain gang) for that matter be able to do this. I don't think I am alone in this.
My tuppence, everything looks towards him being clean, apart from riding for Astana.
Sure it would. Sack the cheats, the clean talent would bubble up to the top.
+1
Hopefully in the next couple of years the teams won't be making decisions between former dopers and non-dopers for leaders as they pass their prime and the newer (cleaner?) riders step up, then it'll be choices between older dopers or giving younger riders a chance as domestiques and form a PR perspective that's more of a no brainer.
Ohh look, yet another thread about speculation and conjecture.
Have you not been to the internet before? 🙂
I think it's right to expect a gold standard, whiter than white. It certainly won't happen if we don't expect it. (It might not if we do, but there's a chance!)
Spectators can demand it, but the guy riding the bike has to put food on the table.
If it were a choice between keeping my principles intact versus riding with a team that would offer me the best chance at winning (or better pay) with slightly compromised morals then I know which one I'd take.
Changes are not going to happen overnight and until they do the riders still have to make a living.
I stopped watching this year as soon as I saw Nibali crest the first top finish with his thumb in his mouth after destroying Purito who said he was on a good day. I have never seen anyone in a race (or chain gang) for that matter be able to do this
Do you mean you've never seen anyone beat Purito? 8 riders beat him that day.
speculation and conjecture has done pretty well for a lot of us.
Look at Di Luca as recently as the 2013 Giro.
I didn't need the later positive test to know exactly what was going on.
Menchov
JTL
Kreuziger
But there's nothing to suggest Nibali is doping, other than the fact he's winning. (and that he rides for Astana)
A lot of the time he has on other riders was made up on a cobbled stage that everyone said he never had the skills to ride. He seized stage 2 with an optimistic break for line, gaining a few seconds when he left everyone else looking at each other. He's taken every opportunity to gain time, not all of it has been down to physical strength.
Heh, Vino was blatantly at it for so long, and yet I find it hard to dislike him, he added a whole load of entertainment value. Mostly recently when Jill Douglas announced him as a very popular winner at the Olympics.
That said, it's hard to justify his involvement as a team manager given the sport is trying so hard to get rid of the dopers. It doesn't send a good message. But if you suddenly kicked everyone in management with any doping history there wouldn't be many of them left.
But there's nothing to suggest Nibali is doping, other than the fact he's winning. (and that he rides for Astana)A lot of the time he has on other riders was made up on a cobbled stage that everyone said he never had the skills to ride. He seized stage 2 with an optimistic break for line, gaining a few seconds when he left everyone else looking at each other. He's taken every opportunity to gain time, not all of it has been down to physical strength.
This is spot on. He's always been a GT contender and indeed has won the Giro and the Vuelta. He's only looking so good because he has a strong team, is making small attacks near the end of stages after being protected, isn't riding against his main opponents and he got most of his time on the cobbles.
Spectators can demand it, but the guy riding the bike has to put food on the table.
A rider cheating on the bike is taking food off the table of the rider riding clean.
But there's nothing to suggest Nibali is doping, other than the fact he's winning. (and that he rides for Astana)
I haven't said that he or anyone else is doping this year.
But I personally lose the ability to suspend disbelief when Astana and Valverde are involved. It's not that I'm sure they are doping, it's that I'm always suspecting.
I enjoy watching the fight between the breakaway riders though, and also the 'best French finisher' race.
A rider cheating on the bike is taking food off the table of the rider riding clean.
Not disagreeing with you there.
However, even clean riders have to take the opportunities coming their way. Gift horse and all that.
I have a lot of empathy for a young rider facing the choice "dope or quit the career of your dreams". What a horrible situation. But who's responsible for that? Established dopers and any party tolerant of the status quo.
Been watching it today. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. 😐
put him with contador and froome and he would have looked a lot less impressive, for what that's worth.
I too didn't bother watching it after the domination by Nibs. Partly because I can't get away with watching it at work, but also because its (to me) quite obvious that all is not what it should be.
In his defense, the crux of the competition have fallen by the wayside - I'm not so sure Contador would have put up much of a fight as he's not been amazing since the ban. Froome....well, he didn't look confident at the start, less so when he open palmed the back top. So its not like Nibs has had that much competition (Teejay Van doo dah....seriously?).
BUT he rides for Astana and vinko, he repeatedly puts in crazy attacks day after day (I was on the understanding that doping makes recovery quicker) and the margin is so great.
Who knows, but this is the first tour in years I haven't bothered watching.
I'm not so sure Contador would have put up much of a fight as he's not been amazing since the ban.
Eh? Did you see Contador racing earlier this season? Looked on absolutely tip top form. There's good reason everyone was talking about Froome and Contador going into this race.
Contador was the red-hot favourite and showed Froome up good and proper in the Dauphine.
It would've been awesome to see him and Nibali racing up and down hill in the Tour.
Do you mean you've never seen anyone beat Purito?
Obviously not, no.
Generally crushing the field on a climb with mountain top finish and sticking your hand in your mouth for the last 50 metres you don't see every day or in my case never. I'll try it next race without the mountain top or the crushing bit and let you know how I get on.
I've been thinking for a few days that I really can't believe he is clean. I've just finished Christophe Bassons book, now I definitely can't, there are too many new drugs that cannot be tested for at this point.
As Bassons says though most cyclists and fans are generally hoping for the best and cheer the effort, this tour I just shake my head a little too
he repeatedly puts in crazy attacks day after day
Every day he rides faster than everyone else
his crazy attacks last about a minute at most.
and the margin is so great.
Wiggins was 3 mins clear of froome who was 3 mins clear of nibali who was 4 mins clear of van der brook
top ten was 2012 - 17 m 17 sec v 16 mins 25 secs fro 2014
not that much different form now
he is 7 mins clear because the best riders are not there. he would not have 7 mins on bertie or froome
you are clutching at straws tbh and you argument is look he is the best therefore he must be cheating.
sticking your hand in your mouth for the last 50 metres
That might just be the daftest "evidence" of doping I've heard yet. Has anyone performed an in depth analysis of his jawline?
Jumble do you ride in the Pro Tour then? I only ask as I'm wondering what relevance your racing has to Nibali's?
I have no idea where or who he rides with if he thinks no one has ever attacked and just cycled away from the rest up a steep hill EVER at any level.
Nibali is head and shoulders above this Tour, a complete transformation from his 'getting dropped the first time it kicked off' days with Cannondale...
From what I've seen, he has a commanding lead at least as much due to astute tactical riding as to better legs - it's not how devastatingly strong he's been, but how and when he's chosen to deploy the strength he has.
I want to believe.
Fair play Astana, they have ridden brilliantly.
Jumble do you ride in the Pro Tour then? I only ask as I'm wondering what relevance your racing has to Nibali's?
No I don't ride in the Pro Tour. Here is my logic...
I don't know Nibali's ftp or his power figures for that climb. But we can use Perceived Rate of Exertion to have an idea about how hard he is working. Nibali has the same energy systems I have and in the 3 races which I have been in with current Pro Tour riders they all rode a lot faster than me and all looked as bollox-ed as me at the end. So this makes me think PRE is a good scale for all of us.
So at the top of that climb he stuck his hand in his mouth and continued his climb. For me that puts him in the lower PRE scale whilst everyone else was in the higher scale from what I saw.
This makes we wonder why the difference.
That is my logic. Complete conjecture.
From what I've seen, he has a commanding lead at least as much due to astute tactical riding as to better legs - it's not how devastatingly strong he's been, but how and when he's chosen to deploy the strength he has.
I think this is mostly true. Thing is that Nibali can jump away from the bunch of GC riders and no one is going bury themselves to chase as they are all busy racing each other, not Nibali. Once he's got the gap then he can ride at his own pace (and doesn't usually then pull out a massive gap.) Behind him the rest of the GC riders have their own race, watch each other, attack each other, the pace goes up and down, all the time Nibali is just tapping out his own tempo up front. That couple of minutes he went into the Voges with put him in a very strong tactical position. No one's really been racing him since Contador crashed out.
And where he's flown past riders on a final climb, it's usually because they've been out in a long break and are cooked and he's been ensconced in an Astana cocoon all day.
FML. Why do we have to do this every year. He's winning = doping, brilliant. Why even bother. If Froome/Contador were there nobody would say a word about him and you'd all be frothing about FoomTador. The reasons for his doping this year have been comical though, cheers.
Why do we have to do this every year.
Decades of not doing it, not questioning, taking things at face value, was what lead to this situation 🙂 Well not us specifically here, but you get the idea. Also, for me, it's doing this or working on a rather tedious presentation I have to give tomorrow.
We have to do this because we love the sport. We saw Floyd dying one day and flying the next.
in a bit more detail here
http://sportsscientists.com/2014/07/the-physiology-at-the-front-of-the-tour/
But we can use Perceived Rate of Exertion to have an idea about how hard he is working
That may well be the most retarded thing I've read for a while. Because you don't have any empirical data you're going to apply some notional numbers on effort to someone you weren't within 1000 miles of? And the fact he celebrated is evidence of his doping?
Interesting articles though, basically 6w/kg has been the magic number historically, so ride under that, or be viewed with suspicion!
I thought it interesting that they put Nibali on the same level as 2013 Froome, I really didn't think his performances were all that and believe Froome/Contador would have bettered him in the mountains. Probably not enough to take yellow though. It's also interesting we're stuck at 6W/KG, you'd think that might change as new training took hold and even living standards increased?
It's not actually as a high a number as I'd expect either, if they're 65kg that's only 390w, which isn't [i]that [/i]high.
you'd think that might change as new training took hold and even living standards increased?
That's basically what they're saying though - everyone who's hit 6w/kg in the past has been on the cusp of plausibility, but always turned out to be doped. We're again seeing a crop of riders at 6w/kg, so either they've got better, or they're still doped!
They might be lying about their weight too. Every racing cyclist I've ever met lies about how much they train, and how much they weigh 😀
That may well be the most retarded thing I've read for a while
Given we are writing on STW and some of the recent threads that is bad news.I explained why I stopped watching - the comparable PRE that I perceived - and you said my explanation was retarded. Doesn't seem as bad as some to me.
I always wondered where the weight figures for calculating the watts/kg came from. Armstrong always claimed he was much lighter than he really was so that his W/kg seemed more plausible.
FWIW I don't think Nibbles or Froome were/are doped. They may be hitting the 6ish mark on the W/Kg scale but just from watching the racing it looks very different from a few years ago. The Spanish riders in the Vuelta on the other hand....