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Is XC so unpopular over here now that people have forgotten it's seat up head down racing.
As for using a dropper in an XC race, seriously? I'm struggling to think of a single feature I've ridden in an XC race that would need one. If it's just steep techy stuff then having the saddle up isn't a huge deal anyway, really the major time you don't want it up is for jumps and drops neither of which are likely to feature at a local XC race.
Is XC so unpopular over here now that people have forgotten it's seat up head down racing
racing means riding and not posing in the car park. You can't claim to be something your not, there are a lot of "gods" who talk the talk but when it comes to it can't ride.
As for using a dropper in an XC race, seriously? I'm struggling to think of a single feature I've ridden in an XC race that would need one
It's not really about 'needing' one, it's about whether it's advantageous. Yes you can get down things with your saddle up, but would you be faster with it down? You don't need gears, suspension or disc brakes, but they're worth having.
I reckon we'll start to see them become more common, particularly as they get lighter.
Would it be faster though, as a dropper is heavier, something to go wrong, plus possibly loses you a few seconds as you faff with the button. And if it's that steep you'll be freewheeling anyway, so no really advantage of dropper that I can see. If courses changed significantly in design then maybe, but then you'd probably be more into Enduro territory.
Why do people use them at trail centres or the Surrey Hills then if they're no quicker? Plenty of dropped saddles at Swinley, and you could ride that on a road bike!
Not everyone will benefit, but some will, and as the weight comes down I'd be really surprised if we don't see more of them.
If there was a dropper on the market that was ~300g with a 50mm drop, then I'd use it for XC events.
Until then the extra weight isn't worth it for me, apart from at Iron Bike.
World Cup level would be different though, some of those course are seriously technical and I think we will see riders start to use them as the weights get a bit more. Even sub 400g would be respectable.
Would it be faster though, as a dropper is heavier, something to go wrong, plus possibly loses you a few seconds as you faff with the button. And if it's that steep you'll be freewheeling anyway, so no really advantage of dropper that I can see.
You can corner faster with your saddle lower because you can load the tyres harder for more grip and you can suck and pump bumps, jumps and drops more. If that means you can brake less and carry more speed then it could be worth more than the small weight penalty will cost you uphill - depends on the course and the rider.
Do you ride singlespeed because you lose a few seconds as you faff with the shifter on geared bikes? 😛
Yeah but if you need a dropper for Swinley then you ain't going to be troubling anyone in an XC race. I haven't raced XC or similar for a year or two but I don't remember seeing anyone with a dropper at the last SITS (not that you'd have needed it).
dragon - Memberplus possibly loses you a few seconds as you faff with the button.
Perhaps if you have no hands and you're trying to work it with your nose. If a velociraptor can work a door handle I reckon the average XC racer can press a button.
Yeah I ride singlespeed because I think the accumulation of milliseconds lost to deciding on gear changes, easing off during the shift and the ability to back off on climbs, costs seconds over a race.
I think I'm a touch quicker on the SS Scott Scale than when I race it geared. (Caveat; I have it optimized for local courses though)
I also use a lower saddle than normal because it gives me better cornering. I'm climbing out the saddle all the time anyway so efficiency less important.
Finally, I also have done away with my suspension fork as it's only necessary for about 5% of the time. Still deciding whether this is a good move or not.
Is it not a reflection of the courses ridden? If they arn't needed because the courses don't warrant them, then they don't use them.
Should XC races include jumps, drops and more technical features?
dragon - Member
Yeah but if you need a dropper for Swinley then you ain't going to be troubling anyone in an XC race.
Need.... or choose? I may not need one, but I may choose to use one, then i'd be lethal in an xc race...
How about cross then, road or xc or somewhere in the middle?
Should XC races include jumps, drops and more technical features?
take a look at WC courses, take a look at some of the features on the "easy" London Olympic course.
The course has to reflect the riders, there is no point making a course that ends up with riders in hospital for the benefit of a few "gods". Everyone is going to make a decision about what is fastest, walk/run or ride. It is racing after all. Most riders have jobs to go to on Monday and breaking bones isn't much fun.
Right mrmo. XC has got a lot more technical over the last few years. It came a quite a shock to do National XC courses after a 10-odd year break. I've done no DH tracks but Redruth and Cathkin Braes had features just as tricky as any trail centre XC I've ever come across (Ae, all of Brechfa, Cwmcarn Twrch trail, all of the Afan and Coed-y-Brenin). Hadleigh Farm was downright bloody intimidating. Back to the original question, I'm far from the best technical rider but I scrape down most A's (and the odd 'B') with the same saddle height as my road bike.
I'm not really in a position at the mo to measure my saddle heights but from memory when they are all lined up they all look remarkably similar heights, if there are any differences its a few mm's max. Funny but I just know when they are "right" I have a knack of getting hold of a new bike and just getting the seat height bang on first attempt, then line it up with the other bikes and hey presto..
Weird.
Mine aren't the same (they shouldn't be - shoe/pedal stack will be diff from road to XC) but knee angles are the same at max leg extension.
I am contemplating using a dropper if I take XC seriously, for a couple of the national courses. I could ride all the A lines at Hadleigh with my seat at the proper height, but I'm confident I'd be faster with a lower saddle. Never going to be using it for Thetford though!
If you think about it, the ideal saddle to bar drop for optimal pedalling efficiency for XC racing and the optimal saddle to bar drop for jumps/drops/cornering etc are different and these two numbers could be very different if you have longer legs.
So instead most XC racers tend to go somewhere in between, but with a dropper, you could probably hit both numbers. Easily worth the weight penalty IMO.
So I reckon we'll be seeing more and more dropper posts in XC races, been a few pros using them too. Tod Wells, Adam Craig and I think Geoff Kabush was using one too...
i can see what hobnob is saying in a way, especially at 'normal person' level (ie, you or i getting amazingly fit), i know of a few riders local who race xc (on strava) and are in the top 10 on most of the killer off road climbs by me, but they are absolutly no where to be seen in the top 50 of the downhill stuff (which usually follows on from the climbs they have smashed up)
i think in that respect normal people can get extremely amazingly fit but still only be ok at descending
but then you go to proper elite level even in the uk series, and it changes dramatically most (not all!) can descend as fast as most with the saddle up their arse
and people like schurter etc are just on another level, they are supremely fit by anyones standards but also have a hell of a lot of skill to boot
i was reading hobnobs point as i have stated above about 'normal people'
Out of curiosity I've just been out & measured mine, as I didn't honestly know what the difference in height was between my xc race bike & my road bike.
Turns out my xc bike's saddle is 5mm lower than my road bike. I didn't think it'd be as different as that.
How are you lot working out your saddle heights on your road bikes?
I used the Lemond method, and was surprised how low it felt.
I went with a friend of mine to Brian Rourkes to get fitted for his new frame & applied similar ideas to fine.
Ended up dropping the saddle around 6-7mm from where it was, dropping the bars 15mm & found it more efficient (read faster) as a result. Maybe it's a genuine improvement, maybe it's a placebo either way I don't care & it still feels good 18 months down the line
As for using a dropper in an XC race, seriously? I'm struggling to think of a single feature I've ridden in an XC race that would need one
Well I am just moving back to a racing a hardtail from an anthem, and I really took a beating from the saddle when I had it at road height. Road height was perfect for blasting the fireroad (where you make up the most time...) but not great when it got rough, but not steep, as I did not have enough give in my knees/legs to absorb the hits. Think rooty pedally singletrack.
It isn't about the need to drop it 5cm and hang off the back of the bike to be able to 'clear a feature', it is about giving me that extra couple of cm so I am comfortable and ultimately faster in the rougher stuff, and still able to run a higher saddle for the fireroads
I'm sure I would be faster overall despite the 400g weight penalty. Only thing that puts me off at the moment is frame warranty (need to use a shim for a 34.9). As a short term measure I'll be trying a slightly bigger volume tyre on the rear (upto 2.25 from 2.1) and a slightly lower saddle height
retro83 - Member
How are you lot working out your saddle heights on your road bikes?
Heel on the pedal at it's furthest away, leg should be fully outstretched. I often go a few mm higher.
Didn't Adam Craig use a dropper post in the German round of the WC last year? And he's one the more technically superior riders out there.
i know of a few riders local who race xc (on strava) and are in the top 10 on most of the killer off road climbs by me, but they are absolutly no where to be seen in the top 50 of the downhill stuff (which usually follows on from the climbs they have smashed up)
As I tend to be in that category, what does risking your neck on a downhill achieve? There are no prizes, all you do is piss off walkers and horse riders if your not very lucky. Plus I tend to use the down to get by breath back after the climb.
I ride to ride, I enjoy riding, I do not enjoy crashing, Jumps, berms, new-school that sort of thing has never been the reason why I ride. I would rather go out 40+ miles and just watch the world go by. Thing is the more you ride the fitter you get, and if the reason you ride is to ride you usually end up fitter, than if the reason you ride is to do jumps to play around sessioning DHs
mrmo - Member
i know of a few riders local who race xc (on strava) and are in the top 10 on most of the killer off road climbs by me, but they are absolutly no where to be seen in the top 50 of the downhill stuff (which usually follows on from the climbs they have smashed up)
As I tend to be in that category, what does risking your neck on a downhill achieve? There are no prizes, all you do is piss off walkers and horse riders if your not very lucky. Plus I tend to use the down to get by breath back after the climb.I ride to ride, I enjoy riding, I do not enjoy crashing, Jumps, berms, new-school that sort of thing has never been the reason why I ride. I would rather go out 40+ miles and just watch the world go by. Thing is the more you ride the fitter you get, and if the reason you ride is to ride you usually end up fitter, than if the reason you ride is to do jumps to play around sessioning DHs
im not having a pop, i enjoy the climbs too, i infact thrive off the climbs even on a trail bike and i can hold my own with some of them climbing on segments, even on their racey h/t's, im just saying that there are some people out there who are amazingly fit (and hats off to you for getting that fit), but it doesnt always mean they are great riders when it points down, i guess that was what hobnob was saying in the first place
i really do appreciate people who can belt up stuff, and even more so at a constant fast pace for so many race laps, but until you get to the real top end elite guys who can go as fast down on a skimpy h/t as i can on my f/s trail bike then i have seen first hand that some of the super fast guys (who ride xc but are normal everyday blokes), are not all that much kop pointing downwards
but again its not everyone, even a normal person i know of in particular who raced since he was 15onwards till about 22ish, has lost his fitness now as he gave it up, but his skill set is still there, last time i rode with him he was going down steeper stuff than me with his seat up his arse, and he hadnt touched a mtb for years, some people have it and some dont, but you can disguise it a bit more on a XC circuit by just being mega mega fit and going fast as lightning on the ups and very steady on the downs
if i was racing mind id only be interested in going as fast as possible without falling off
Yeah but if you need a dropper for Swinley then you ain't going to be troubling anyone in an XC race. I haven't raced XC or similar for a year or two but I don't remember seeing anyone with a dropper at the last SITS (not that you'd have needed it).
a) SITS isn't XC - it's designed to be non-technical, and if that's your benchmark for what XC race courses are like then you're a little misguided
b) who said need? Again... do you [i]need[/i] gears/suspension/disc brakes/a saddle?
How are you lot working out your saddle heights on your road bikes?
Roughly straight leg with heel on pedal. Adjusted slightly for shoe and pedal stack heights - I notice a difference when I wear my S-Works shoes on the turbo compared to using my Northwave winter boots - big difference in sole thickness.
i think a proper lightweight dropper post would be genius for a xc racer, it would have to be light, and not necissarily have that much travel/drop, but just enough to take the edge off the seat being up your arse, i still reckon once they make one light enough alot of them will be using them, i cant see any reason i wouldnt, unless it was proven to be hugely unreliable
I'd love a lightweight dropper post for xc racing, something I could just drop 40mm.
Regarding riding into the back of expert level racers in downhill singletrack, it might also be the case that if they are not involved in developing a gap or chasing the next person down, they might be conserving energy for the next climb. You might try to save your energy in the singletrack as most time-damage is done on the climbs, and most passing done on fireroads if the singletrack is too tight.
road and xc bike both 73 cm from BB centre to top of saddle for me 🙂
retro83 - MemberHow are you lot working out your saddle heights on your road bikes?
I used the Lemond method, and was surprised how low it felt.
Posted 1 hour ago # Report-Post
goldenwonder - MemberI went with a friend of mine to Brian Rourkes to get fitted for his new frame & applied similar ideas to fine.
Ended up dropping the saddle around 6-7mm from where it was, dropping the bars 15mm & found it more efficient (read faster) as a result. Maybe it's a genuine improvement, maybe it's a placebo either way I don't care & it still feels good 18 months down the line
Fully agree with all that here. Lemond method is about the only formula for bike fitting that seems to be a really useful guide. It's not any less efficient over a reasonable duration ride than a higher saddle imo, more so if anything. It feels low to start with but that's prob because so many of us ride with saddles too high in the first place. You keep raising it up until it feels inefficient then back down a few mm when it should be down 10-20mm maybe.
5mm or so lower on the MTB is normal too, mine is about 8mm lower I think. Seat angle differences can affect that a bit.
Carbon Lev is 400g and has 65 mm of travel which sounds good, other than the silly cost. I could probably get away with less drop, 3-4 cm would be perfect for xc.
That said is weight really an issue on a MTB? As per an earlier post on another thread an additional 2KG on a road bike was proved to add about 4 % to a climb time up alp dhuez.
Given the percentage increase in weight in using a dropper would be far smaller, then surely the weight issue would be tiny....less than 15/20 seconds per hour at a guess.
Not done many races but those I have done I could have ridden without a dropper, but I was undoubtably faster on the downhill bits with one...at least enough to offset the minimal weight penalty.
That said is weight really an issue on a MTB? As per an earlier post on another thread an additional 2KG on a road bike was proved to add about 4 % to a climb time up alp dhuez.Given the percentage increase in weight in using a dropper would be far smaller, then surely the weight issue would be tiny....less than 15/20 seconds per hour at a guess.
Therefore, yes, weight matters massively (see what I did there physics fans?), if you're at the sharp end.
problem with dropper posts and acceptance, if they cost you 30secs from added weight, but you gain 1min because you descend faster they make sense, if they cost you 30secs for weight and only save 10secs, why bother? But if the course doesn't enable you to overtake and make use of the extra speed on the downhills, then maybe you have to think about what means you can go as fast as possible where you can overtake.
If you only have one bike which you may race occasionally, then fine that is a different scenario.
That said is weight really an issue on a MTB? As per an earlier post on another thread an additional 2KG on a road bike was proved to add about 4 % to a climb time up alp dhuez.
Given the percentage increase in weight in using a dropper would be far smaller, then surely the weight issue would be tiny....less than 15/20 seconds per hour at a guess.Therefore, yes, weight matters massively (see what I did there physics fans?), if you're at the sharp end.
Nah, way less than that.
Elite at 70kg who can do 340 watts for an hour + 10 kg bike = 4.25w/kg
With a dropper (light seatpost = 250g, dropper = 550g) 70kg rider +10.3kg bike =4.23w/kg.
The guy with a dropper needs to increase output by just over a watt to sustain the same relative output as before, that deals with the slowing effect of a adding the dropper. It is de minimis.
If you increased/decreased your power by 1 watt, you would not notice it, it is not tangible. Dropping your seatpost for technical descents would definitely be tangible. I'd wager 1 watt would not add the same amount of time as dropping your post, by a lot. Obviously the more skilled the rider the less advantage.
Therefore, yes, weight matters massively (see what I did there physics fans?), if you're at the sharp end
Sure, but the tiny advantage gained is offset by the ability to ride every other part of the course quicker.
Obviously the more skilled the rider the less advantage.
Agreed. Having seen the guys at the olympics tackle some of the course with silly high seats its clearly not a requirement for everyone, but for those less gifted (ie 95% of riders) it surely makes sense.
Agreed. Having seen the guys at the olympics tackle some of the course with silly high seats its clearly not a requirement for everyone, but for those less gifted (ie 95% of riders) it surely makes sense.
I reckon most of those guys could go faster on droppers, even them. Definitely a 'marginal gain' though. Mountain bikers aren't exactly famed for marginal gains, but fashion, is something they definitely are famed for. Dropper seatposts definitely aren't XC fashion though...
Yes, I completely agree most people might be quicker and the weight of a dropper post brings immediate benefits to control and confidence. My comment about weight was in response to a previous poster's more general comment about 'does weight really matter on an mtb'. And in my opinion, yes, weight matters with all other things being equal, but if that is offset by functional advantage then I'd take the weight gain. A bit like having stiffer wheels rather than going for flexy ultralight rims. But generally I'll take weight-loss where I can get it*
*well, apart from last week's bout of gastroenteritis 😯
The guy with a dropper needs to increase output by just over a watt to sustain the same relative output as before, that deals with the slowing effect of a adding the dropper. It is de minimis.
I'm not totally convinced of the real world application of the science there, adding 2/3 of pound = 1w additional power required?
By that logic switching to DH wheels (@6lbs heavier) would only require 10w additional power on the climbs?
Everyone seems to be almost desperate to have their own use of a dropper post validated by pro XC riders using one. If they felt it was an advantage, or if they got paid enough by a sponsor, they'd already be using one.
All the above stuff suggests it would be a great advantage, but they can ride well enough without one, as is demonstrated at every race.
Droppers are this seasons fashion for the STW riders; this does not imply a performance advantage for real athletes.
I think this is a good point:
But if the course doesn't enable you to overtake and make use of the extra speed on the downhills,
Whilst the top guys don't use the descents to recover, many people (myself included) do, so actually having something which enables you to absolutely hammer the descents when you're not going to anyway, is even more pointless. I wonder if that accentuates the difference for the DH racers who have a go at XC, who are hammering the descents.
gonna give a dropper a go, mainly for jumping if I get brave. think I would remove for sdw, big dog etc.
may find I dont notice it though.
very undecided about this.
possibly the advantage is on corners where you can drive the weight through the pedals more effectively.
if we are talking marginal gains.
[url= http://www.cervelo.com/en/engineering/thinking-and-processes/aerodynamics.html ]http://www.cervelo.com/en/engineering/thinking-and-processes/aerodynamics.html[/url]
why don't we see aero mtbs i am sure you can get a reasonable advantage by redesigning the forks, wheels etc. For the average bimbler no issue, but once you are unto 20mph which is easy on fire road sections it becomes a real issue.
possibly the advantage is on corners where you can drive the weight through the pedals more effectively.
How?
If you want to [i]drive the weight through the pedals more effectively[/i] you are already standing up, so moving something that you don't actually touch is going to have no effect at all.
If I could get properly fit, I'd be lethal in an XC race
Ha...hahaha....hahahahahaha
Come on then big guns, get fit and 'be lethal'
Most of the fast lads I know are proper quick both up and down. Winter 'xc' races are by no means a measure - a lot of road riders and tt'ers use mtb in winter for training. Mental quick on the fire roads, slower on the single track, mainly because they're either recovering or because they don't want to crash wrecking their upcoming season. Additionally gorricks are a free for all, you can pitch up as an expert or elite if you like getting your head kicked in
Do the first national at sherwood, any class you like and see how much 'bitch braking' you're doing then...
why don't we see aero mtbs
Because the UK mtb market still thinks baggy shorts and baggy tops and Camelbaks filled with 'life saving' equipment is the shizzle.
Mountain biking in the UK is a leisure activity rather than a sport for the people who spend money in the high street shops and on the internet.