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Nice one TiRed!!
At the moment the dream for me is to have another Abingdon race, whereby everything (well bar th last 20 secs) was perfect. My positioining, pacing, effort/time at the front of the mini break just all came together. If I can do that again in a cat 3 race then I'd be a very happy bunnny!
Also need to regain some of the confidence I had when I was mislead into believing I had 5w/kg at my disposal, attacking lots and wearing others down 😆 I think my racing style got boring due to believing my actually w/kg wasn't enough and chasing the points by sitting in for the bunch sprint.
So when I'm back, I'm forgetting about points:
- random attacks are back on the table, it's fun and I like hearing people groan after a couple of them lol. Plus one might actually stick if a couple of decent riders come with.
- no sitting at the back
- they're to be treated as a workout, I shouldn't be able to do sprint drills on the way home 😆
Aiming to be back mid May, I've taken Zwift racing back up until then.
Top work TiRed, nice little primer before the weekend 😆
Made a last minute decision to race a Mallory park this evening, which may be a mistake as I think i'm still a bit fatigued from the Tour of the Black Country last Sunday. So I guess there's nothing to it to attack and see what happens (also, I'm racing at shrewsbury on Sunday, and it's almost impossible to get away there, esp in 4ths where everything gets chased down).
If nothing else, I might get some more accurate power numbers, as my last ftp test wasn't particularly accurate (as shown by the charts for last weeks chaingang)
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I'm liking your plan Nath, racing should be exciting for you 🙂
What are you planning on racing Nath? It's a shame they are no longer running the Cat 3 only races at Thruxton. (Well done BC!!!).
Quite tempted by the "Big Events", probably the second one (3rd in the series) as my debut back into it:
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/events/details/160239/BIG-Events---Central---Hillingdon--2-2017
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/events/details/160243/BIG-Events---Central---Hillingdon--3-2017
Although the 2/3 next weekend does sound like a fun bit of exercise!!
@jd77 - if you enable normalised power for intervals (Preferences -> Metrics -> Intervals, then add NP to the list) Then you can do a selection from the ride to see the NP for that section. If you selected from the start of interval interval 2 for the next hour (or even up till the break) then your NP number could be a good target for a threshold test.
Thanks @matts
just did that for the ride above and it gave me 242W for 1 hour, and my last race (april 2) had an NP of 240 for 50 minutes
Can I use this as a new FTP, or am I going to have to bite the bullet and do another test?
I would say, as with many things, 'it depends'.
If you have historically shown that NP for hard rides and FTP are similar, then it might work for you. The classic NP Buster is a ride that is more than 105% of FTP for an hour. The thing is that most people are able to better cope with the interval efforts than they are to ride at steady-state.
So if you want the number to help calculate training zones for <20 min intervals. Then it's probably a good number. If you want to know how to pace a 25, then getting stuck in to some longer efforts may be in order.
This is one of the reasons that the guided 20 tests to determine FTP start with a couple of short sharp efforts before the 20 minute block. The idea is to deplete your anaerobic reserves and push you closer to lactic threshold before the interval starts. That way it can more closely simulate your threshold performance than smashing it fresh in a 10mile TT can.
I probably dont have enough data (only being using a power meter since early March), but my normalised power for races and the wednesday chaingang (n=7) is in the range of 235-245 W
So given that I'm training for short road races and cx, and have no interest in TT's longer than 10 miles, I'll reset my ftp to 240W and see how that goes
thanks for the help
I've entered the Big Events Cat 4 at Hillingdon on Saturday. It will probably be my last jaunt up there for a while as work ramps up from next week. A bit pricier though- to cover the timing chips I suppose?
Made a last minute decision to race a Mallory park this evening, which may be a mistake as I think i'm still a bit fatigued from the Tour of the Black Country last Sunday.
Well, it was a mistake; was too eager to be at the front at the start (partly because there was a strong crosswind), and then got forced onto the rumble strips on lap 3 which put me out the back. I didnt have the legs to get back on, and climbed off at the end of the lap to try and save my legs for the weekend
Just consider it a bit of a wake-up for the legs.
Just consider it a bit of a wake-up for the legs.
will do, although it felt more like 'good night'
Nice one CH!!
If it's good fun are you hoining the week after too? If you do I will 😆
It's sadly unlikely mate as I really want to race Thruxton on the 09th 🙁
'Raced' in the cyclopark race last night. Was utterly miserable - pissing down with rain, filthy track and only 25 turned up to race. Was feeling pretty good for the first few laps sitting around 350 watts. Then the lights seemed to go out and I was sat out the back. Pulled out on the fifth lap after being properly dropped. No idea what happened but drove home feeling utterly useless. Followed by an hour cleaning kit and figuring out what i'd wrecked on the bike.
Now trying to get my shoes dried out for Saturday...where hopefully things will go a bit better...
Jour sans.
Did you get cold? Maybe that shut you down.
Cyclopark:
1) Always windy and usually cold
2) Course designed to break up the bunch effectively (sometimes from lap 1)
3) Easy to lose concentration
4) Rewards excellence in cornering skills
5) Miserable in the rain due to 4)
6) Needs a good warm up
I normally spend 20 minutes doing the BC world class warm-up on the top loop circuit before heading to the start. Failure to warm up will see you off the bunch, sometimes after the first corner!
Everyone has a bad day. I've been dropped there a few times before learning how to stay on. The course is designed for just this, unlike the road race you did before, which has more in common with Hillingdon - full gas and sprint finish.
Thanks gents. It was really bizarre, I felt great for 3 laps getting ready to stick a move in, then next thing I know I'm out the back on my own.
I wasn't especially cold, but every time I tried to breathe I got a mouth full of shitty water from the wheel in front. I think focusing on that, and making sure some chopper didn't wiped me out in the corners meant I wasn't focusing on my position in the bunch and what I was doing.
You're right though TiRed, that course is well designed to break things up. That hairpin is an utter bastard too, thankfully I think they're cutting that bit out on Saturday
Thanks gents. It was really bizarre, I felt great for 3 laps getting ready to stick a move in, then next thing I know I'm out the back on my own
Sounds familiar. I guess with circuit races if you're not on top form 1 mistake can end your race before you know it
Stage one done. Held on for 90 km, but the last two laps were brutal and I finished a couple of minutes down on the field. Recovery now...
Well done TiRed!
Big Events #1 Cat 4 for me today. This week was R+R plus 'test'. Well the TT on Wednesday ended up being the Test and then I caught a bit of a cold off of our son who brought it home from school.
So I skipped a couple of days of Z1 in favour of total rest.
I knew I would have to warm up well today but because of the way Big Events space out the races, I was able to do 8 miles on circuit which is awesome!!
The big difference from usual is the transponders but they dealt with the handing out/collecting in a very chilled and pragmatic fashion and it didn't add any hassle.
They also had a megaphone and shouted out time gaps to the two man break and counted down the laps. That was cool too.
So, I nailed my pre race nutrition/hydration and arrived at the line crammed full of sugar and with an empty bladder for once. A quick gel on the line (and they even came around with a carrier bag and took your wrapper from you) and I was properly buzzing.
Sadly, the one guy who had never raced before was bang in front of me and he took ages to clip in. I mean, it never cost me anything really but it is annoying 😀
I actually had a chat to him later in the race to see how he was doing and he did great apart from a puncture with 2 to go.
Obviously, I wanted a point. One simple number 1 on that race license. That was the main goal.
But after that, I had three objectives.
1. To drink all my blasted drink!!!
2. To stay on the drops the whole race.
3. To be as lazy as possible.
The race was strange. It was as sketchy as ever and pretty much bang on the Cat4 standard of 25mph. And yet!
It was like an out of body experience. I was aware of dodgy issues before they fully developed and could just ride away from them.
I cruised up and down the bunch almost at will. I rode whatever line I was on, sometimes inside, sometimes out. Sometimes deep in the bunch, sometimes Nathing the edges.
And the race felt slow!! Then I looked down and realised I was riding at 150-160bpm not 160-170!!
By not being on the rivet, I was able to peruse my Garmin, monitor the time, drink every few laps and chat to the newbies! This is like a group ride, not a race 😆
When the pace ramped up once or twice, I was able to not just hang but move forward easily and cover the front third.
Then Zzzzz as the pace eases and spend half the lap freewheeling back into the draft of guys braking down the hill 😀
One time, I was right off the back having a drink and a stretch and the pace ramped up over the start/finish. A few pedal strokes out of the saddle and my Chinese speed machine was soon cruising half way through the bunch as everybody slowed through the bus stops.
Oh yeah, there's a race on right! So, two guys got away and stayed away all race with about 25seconds on us. Kudos to them- nice ride!
I guess we will see properly when the result come out but I got the impression from the bunch that they had team mates on the front controlling things for them. So without any other strong teams to chase, we just left them to it and ramped up for a Third place sprint.
With about 5 to go, I was chomping at the bit. Full of sugar (thanks to drinking my electrolyte gumph for once) and full of energy (thanks to staying in the drops and drafting well), I was sure I could bypass the Sprint and stay away. Things perked up, and then settled down again.
So I went! With 3 to go. I heard the teams on the front shout as I ripped through the Bus stops, up the hill around Brians, feeling like Rupert Graham ( 😆 ) and sure I'd dropped everyone. A bit of a dig up the hill and straightline the chicane. Uh, dying a bit, lets look behind! And there's the whole bunch on my wheel 😀
Ah well, it was a fun day out! A couple of guys did come through and I followed their wheels. But then it all stopped and they sat up and looked again. Frantically recovering, I slipped to the back before crossing the line to the bell and starting all over again.
I made up places at a more sedate rate as things were strung out at 27/28mph now. Down the hill and I was on the inside about 20 back, I rounded the corner and went early but just didn't have the power (1100ish watts max so 350 light!) and sat back down with 100 to go and pushed as hard as I could. I reckon I was no better off at 20th-30th.
Bloody impatience got me I think! But that was epic- and the first time I have felt in control.
Double post and you don't want to read that twice 😀
Sounds like it's all clicked for you CH!
Now you just need to be patient and save your energy for getting into a good position on the last lap(s) to unleash your power!!
Well done TiRed sounds like a tough race!!
Not as tough as tomorrow's. Been eating for three this evening.
CH that's a great race. Well done, you've come such a long way. Attack!! Don't bother looking back, there's little you can do about the chasing bunch.
Shame you couldn't convert that form into points CH, you absolutely don't need 1500w to win a 4th cat sprint though, if it's any consolation!
Maybe not but it would have gotten me a bit closer to top ten if I could have unleashed a full load 😆
I was 23/35 finishers in the end.
Right in the rocking chair 😀
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Just after my attack got reeled in by London Dynamo (their guy in the break got the win).
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Today was as hard as expected! 100km. With 8 laps and 200m of climbing/lap. Held on for the first two. A crash at the foot of the main climb brought me to a halt, and I couldn't get back onto the bunch. Chased for another lap and caught them when the com stopped the race for bad riding. Another lap and there's a huge dig at a kicker and, me and a few more are out of the back for the last time. Rode the remainder with one other and eventually alone. Pulled off for the last lap just in time to watch my team mate win the hill sprint finish!
Wow! Great job on a tough effort! My legs ached looking at it on Strava. What's the final stage?
Flatter stage tomorrow in Wivelsfield. I'm 51/55 on GC at 27 minutes. My teammate is second at 2 seconds with all to play for. May try and do some blocking tomorrow.
How did it go TiRed?
So Saturday.... it's meant to be Anaerobic Endurance intervals for me which is obviously an area where I'm lacking. Question is, do I enter the Big Events #2 @ Hillingdon?
Of course, if I do, my best chance of doing anything points wise is to definitely NOT do Anaerobic Endurance work apart from one blast at the end.
So folk of STW decide:
a) stay home, be disciplined and bang out some crisp 3-5 min intervals
b) pay my £20 and go to Hillingdon as a training race and do my intervals off the front and see if I can get in a break?
If it makes a difference, I'm looking forward to racing Thruxton on Tuesday 9th...
Wheels came off today! Mr Threshold heart rate was absolutely absent. First lap was fast, second even faster! There was a sharp corner and this required crit skills and power that, today, was lacking! Rode the next lap alone and picked up a straggler, he couldn't hold my wheel (so not last :D), and I was eventually lapped at 67 km. Once the bunch went by, I got back on until that *&$%& corner, where I still couldn't summon enough power to stay with them. Was pulled out a lap down, but finished - so I stay on GC. Don't often see so little points in the red!!!
On the positive side, my fitness has now reached three figures . On the negative, fatigue is 161, making a freshness of -69. Just ready for that E123 at Hillingdon tomorrow 😆
CH - always race. Even for training. You can bang out some five minute intervals by attacking for two laps and sitting up 😉
Wow! That's crazy! I get scared when my fatigue hits 80+ 😀 Well done though- sounds like a great event! And once you rest, your form should skyrocket!
Hmmm, I think it will take more discipline to leave the comfy spot in the bunch and hurt myself publicly than to beast myself on the Turbo 😆
Ok, as a slightly meatier question then. What I'm seeking to achieve in this later phase of my training plan is to put the icing on the cake and add the short duration power to my greatly improved aerobic base.
So am I going to get a better physiological response by doing really well rested AE intervals that end up being say 400w for 3 minutes or is doing say 360w intervals for 3 minutes from race pace going to give the same effect?
I mean, obviously the ones done in the race are a better simulation and also teach me to recover at an elevated pace (more like an over/under interval) but which will have the bigger impact on my desired outcome- to increase power for 3-5minutes at the end of a Crit?
I don't need much encouragement to race on Saturday but my biggest take-away from Joe Friel is polarisation. I.e. to keep workouts either Black or White to avoid your whole training week becoming Grey and I just worry I'll look at my data from Saturdays race and be greeted with a load of very Grey if not Beige looking efforts 😆
Sounds very painful TiRed!!
CH race, you know it's much more fun than Zwift/Training!!
My Zwift racing is going well, picked up 3rd today with a 30 min 327w sustained effort in a 13 mile TT race.
Nath- I'm way past fun- this is harder work than my day job at the moment 😆
CH - To improve your recovery, over/unders are great. To improve your VO2Max power, you should be doing hard intervals. If you're doing the 3 minute efforts well under max then you're not really training the right energy systems effectively.
effin hell - are those fitness/fatigue numbers from strava ?
(biggest fitness I've had is 38 and fatigue 60-odd)
I'm clearly a lazy bastard 😳
Yes Matts- that's my hunch. The workout prescribes easy spin / coasting between work intervals for a reason.
I've found another solution though- I'll just skip tomorrow's Zwift race and do my AE intervals tomorrow instead. That way I can race properly on Saturday.
That's a nice meaty Build week too.
Mon- rest
Tue- AE intervals
Wed- Z1 or Z2 if fresh.
Thu- ME intervals
Fri- Z1/Rest
Sat- Race @ Hillingdon
Sun- Group ride.
Yes they are from Strava. Don't read too much into absolute values, just trends for your own data. The model by Bannister in Strava has the same parameters for me, you, and all those very fit second cat juniors iv spent the weekend chasing. Mine has climbed since January on a regime of three week high volume training. Not high enough though 😆 I clearly need the intervals for explosive power to stop getting dropped!
With regards to training, I think hard intervals when fatigued are likely to be a better strategy for road racing. Banging out explosive efforts when you are fresh is great. The problem is that if you want to race for longer, you can't just simulate 120 minutes of race, followed by more intense effort to avoid being dropped (not unless you have lots of time and a high boredom threshold).
Focussing solely on threshold will only get you so far and, is ideal for the one hour circuit races. But I noticed a big jump to road racing where I was only good for about 75-90 minutes, and an even bigger jump to 2/3 road racing, where I've pushed out that level to 120 minutes. Now I need the final push to consistently finish in the bunch.
Still at about objective 3 at the 2/3 level 🙁 ! About 6 for my 3rd cat road, and 9 for masters circuit racing. It never gets easier.
It depends what adaptation you are trying to elicit from your body. If you want to improve your max sprint power, then you need to be dong intervals that hit very close to your true max value. If not, then you are not effectively stressing the neuromuscular power systems. Imagine going to the gym after running a marathon and then doing some max deadlifts. You might be able to pick up half your max to rep. That isn't going to help you improve your max deadlift. It will hurt. It may improve your fitness if you recover properly afterwards. But you are not training effectively.
The same goes for VO2Max. If you want to elicit maximum gain to improve power at VO2, then you need to be working high up in the band. Working low in the band for short periods at the end of other efforts will definitely help your aerobic fitness. And it will help you learn to suffer. But it will not be as effective at improving power at VO2Max as targeted intervals.
Sessions that could help these race efforts are 5x4min pyramids, (95%-100%-105%-100%-95%) with 10s efforts at each 4min. Or over/unders with 2x15x sprints, 15s rest before the start. 3min under (95%) 3min over (105%) x 3. (so 1 minute for the sprints then 18 minutes of o/u). Then 10 minutes spinning before repeating. So this is basically a mixed-up 2 x 20 session with the sprints to deplete your anaerobic capacity such that the threshold work is really unpleasant. 😆
A good way to improve race endurance is to do some focussed group rides. Go out on a know route, or a route with a loop and then get into a working chaingang and ride hard for a couple of hours. Then spin home. You can mix things up by agreeing some 'games' to play during the ride. Maybe go on a hilly ride and have a KOM challenge where you award points for first and second up each pre-determined hill. Another good game is playing hare and hounds (Nath would probably like this one!). Elect one rider as the boss. You ride tempo in a chaingang and the leader taps one guy to be the 'hare'. Some time in the next couple of minutes, this rider then launches an attack out of the bunch. The leader lets them take a few hundred meters of a gap and then instructs the hounds to chase (blowing a bugle optional). The group has to work together in the chaingang to pull the attacker back. When the catch is made the leader taps another rider. This one works best if you can ride on a fairly quiet circuit to avoid stopping at junctions and lights.
I have to say, the Newbury chaingang the other week with 8 of us was almost as much fun as a race. People drilling it off the front and racing every climb.
I think that's it, if you have a very specific hole in your power curve, you aren't going to fix it very quickly by riding at that existing power number.
In the plan, I've only actually got 6-8 sessions in the next 6 weeks in which to add the Anaerobic fitness I need to complete the picture so every second of pain counts 😀