[Closed] So how many sales were lost at Bespoked on strength of meeting the maker?

5000 chinamen do the same thing day in day out , and often to a much higher standard, that alone should say this show show should make your bullshitometer explode.

'Chinamen'? Could we perhaps use 'Chinese people' instead, as I'm sure there are many women working in that industry, and personally, I think 'chinamen' is a little outdated and possibly offensive. I think you otherwise have a fair point to make though.

The 'difference' I suppose is in having a frame made exactly to your own specifications, where you have personally been involved in it's conception, design and construction to a greater degree than a normal off the peg frame. Is it 'worth it'? I think that's something only the customer can decide. I've been tempted by custom frames, but then always end up thinking that something that's readily available in a shop, which can be bought with the minimum of fuss, for a lot less money, is the preferable option. I can see the appeal to those who want something a bit 'special' though. The same as you could go to IKEA/etc for a bit of furniture, or have someone make you something/make it yourself. Nothing wrong with that if you can afford it. I think pretending it's somehow much better than a standard bike frame is a bit silly though.

clodhopper - Member

'Chinamen'? Could we perhaps use 'Chinese people' instead, as I'm sure there are many women working in that industry,

Also children.

And to be fair - there's probably a lot of non-Chinese people working in these factories too

Yep, Cambodian 3 year olds have superior dexterity to Chinese these days!

You dont see many hand made frames coming out of China with head tube Lugs like this:
And I bet the don't start again if a frame is more than 0.2mm out of alignment. That is the different.

*yes if it's miles out of whack the ride will suffer but fractions of a mm while an admirable aim probably won't be felt by your average STWer

<edit> I'm specifically talking about 4k custom vs 1-2K custom frames, not custom v cheap bog standard frame. I can def see the appeal of a custom frame.

So we are actually talking about appearance rather than performance?

If you want to give me 4k for 4lbs of steel I'll stroke a lot more than your ego 😉

njee20 - Member
Yep, Cambodian 3 year olds have superior dexterity to Chinese these days!

Yep - nothing to do with cost at all

Being an engineer who in the past worked in the bike industry, The Sturdy stuff looks excellent, I feel you can often get better service from the smaller manufacturers.
Some people build bikes because they like doing it some do it to make money

Some people build bikes because they like doing it some do it to make money

😀

I'd imagine it's probably not the most lucrative career.....

Having worked on a stand there with a mate (not a builder but he used to have a stand). I can say that most of the guys who display there haven't slept for a week finishing builds for the show, as one man bands they usually design and build their own stands to display on, carting them into the venue and constructing (and in the case of field on their first year then finishing off the painting of the stand).

They then need to stand around for 8-9 hours each day being the perfect PR guy/or girl for the their brand.

It's not tiring, it's bloody exhausting. An example from a few years ago being Tom of Donohou asking me to man the stand for a bit just so he could have a toilet break for the first time that day. Then after 3 days of this, they get to tear it all down and pack it away again before travelling home.

Yeah, perhaps you didn't get the red carpet you expected, no one is perfect and I'm pretty certain no one there violates rule 1 on a regular basis.

So give them all a break!

Personally I found that framebuilders were happy to talk to me for as long as I wanted! Even the TBikes chap when I was questioning things like rock strike potential or the limited gearing options currently available.

I went to the show just to peer at nice bikes, not to buy, but the Cotic prototype... It's a pity I'm still in 26" land.. maybe I can buy a 26 rocket frame

I'm not far from that Sturdy place, I've heard a few people say he makes very nice stuff. If I remember correctly,welshfarmer ( think it was him ) has a mate who just had one built or is having one built, and was impressed with it.

You remember correctly. I have seem pictures on facebook, a thing of beauty. The Sturdy not welshfarmer.

TBH I think if I went to a custom frame show, the most offputting thing would be a slick professional businessman. If money allows there's a titanium long travel 29er in my future, and I want it to be built by someone with a tramp beard and no social skills, it's part of the appeal.

The 'difference' I suppose is in having a frame made exactly to your own specifications, where you have personally been involved in it's conception, design and construction to a greater degree than a normal off the peg frame.

The problem with this is that framebuilders on the whole don't like to be labelled as 'welders' simply building bikes to someone else's design/spec. You'll find that in a framebuilder's early career they'll be much more accommodating, scared to say no to any work coming their way. Over time they will develop their own style and will find it easier to say no to people.

Over the weekend at the Bespoked show I talked to literally hundreds of people. It's hard to give time to everyone and I find you do have to prioritise time spent. You get pretty good at identifying early on in a conversation whether the person you're speaking to just wants to chat (which is fine) or is asking questions because they might be in the market for a new bike. I try to give everyone as much time as I can as we've sold bikes 2 or 3 years down the line as a result of chatting to people at shows who weren't in the market at the time but appreciated the chat.

'Chinamen'? Could we perhaps use 'Chinese people' instead,

Use any you like , your well aware of where it was going.

If i look at what I got from an american supposed custom builder with reasonable reputation compared to what I now ride from its far eastern origin, I kinow where my money is headed.

You dont see many hand made frames coming out of China with head tube Lugs like this:

Thankfully! because that's everyone's cup of tea isn't it?

Art appeals to certain people

Maybe in Taiwan they all get round the one PC in the factory and sit blowing smoke up the european and americans arse's saying all hail western bike builders they is awesum...look look they have had a show, is there anything worth copying.

one_happy_hippy - Member

And I bet the don't start again if a frame is more than 0.2mm out of alignment. That is the different.

Whilst I admire this attitude, over-tolerancing is a sure-fire way of adding costs to parts for no benefit.

Those lugs on the other hand are fantastic!!

I want it to be built by someone with a tramp beard and no social skills

Which one of the trail fairies has started building frames then? Do they start by making a scale model out of Jaffa Cake boxes?

Cooper? Isn't he dead?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Cooper_(bicycle_framebuilder)

tramp beard and no social skills, it's part of the appeal.

Yeah he was there. I made a compliment on the name of his bike having a certain cool ring to it.. He just stared at me and I thought he wanted to kill me.
Nice bloke though.

stevenmenmuir - Member

Which one of the trail fairies has started building frames then?

Alister's a natural. I'd be sorted, except I can't grow a beard, not manly enough.

Those lugs on the other hand are fantastic!!

But fairly pointless when you could just TIG weld the tubes instead. £4k for a steel frame give me a break, should be more like £1200-1800.

Interesting thread. Only been to one proper bike show, several years ago.

Went to say hello to the proprietors of a well know MTB mag and forum *ahem* and was completely blanked. They did look a bit hungover though.

Made it clear to a well known expensive bike frame producer that I was only looking out of curiosity and ended up having a great chat about riding, what I should/could be looking for in a bike, and what the riding was like near their base which is near my outlaws.

Over the road, the over staffed stand of a well known boutique bike shop completely blanked me as well.

Cy from Cotic was friendly, and Nick Craig lived up to his billing as being the nicest man in sport, asking me to wave next time I saw him on a training ride and he would wave back.

I'd imagine it's probably not the most lucrative career.....

Although if you're charging £4k a frame I'd imagine that you wouldn't be short of a penny. 😆

£4k for a steel frame give me a break, should be more like £1200-1800

I'm not sure even Rob English charges that much, and his bikes really are stunning.

Although if you're charging £4k a frame I'd imagine that you wouldn't be short of a penny.

Depends, I'm guessing there's a fair number of hours put into them (and all those hours are costing overheads).

I'd suggest your paying £4k for a heavily inefficient process or if you are in sales 'handcrafted, bespoke, with exacting attention to detail' :lol:.

Depends, I'm guessing there's a fair number of hours put into them

This.
Just say you wanted to make a good living doing something you love - except there is a lot of competition. You'd have to carve a niche as a producer of something pretty damn special if you want to charge over and above the going rate.
Those lugs, and the finished frames (I urge you to take a look at them) would take dozens and dozens of hours of graft to get right.
Keeping it simple, a good tattoo 'artist' will charge you around £80-£150 per hour for something that loosely speaking should last you a lifetime.
A 4K frame would equate to £50 per hour for 2 normal working weeks (40 hours per week) - not including ANY overheads. End result should be something stunning that potentially lasts you a lifetime.

Horses for courses, completely depends where your values lie.
For me, anyone at the top of their craft and creating bespoke wonders deserves to be well remunerated.

Falcao earned £22m for keeping the bench warm at various football clubs over the last 4 years. A net return of 4 goals.

I think that alone makes a £4K frame rude not to buy.
Makes the other custom £1500 frames seem a true bargain in that context eh?

Keeping it simple, a good tattoo 'artist' will charge you around £80-£150 per hour for something that loosely speaking should last you a lifetime.
A 4K frame would equate to £50 per hour for 2 normal working weeks (40 hours per week) - not including ANY overheads

And just think of some of the jumped up tits in white collar jobs who think that rate of pay is acceptable for the services that [i]they[/i] offer..

Leave the Jr Docs out of this!

I wonder if bartyp was there.

Well put slimjim. I'm glad there are people out there creating this stuff,be it bikes, watches, cars, motorbikes or trousers. who's to say that the value of the frame won't appreciate too.

[i]I wonder if bartyp was there. [/i]

😀

£4000 does sound like alot to me

[img] [/img]

This is a Mercian King of Mercier fully custom in 853 is £1000 plus VAT (less in other Reynolds tubes)

[img] [/img]

I think this their most expensive frame. Vincitore £1435 plus VAT

Now you may like the styling but it's hard to imagine what could cost over twice as much as this.

PS I'm sure even a socially competent person can forget who they are talking to after a day of talking to strangers

PS I'm sure even a socially competent person can forget who they are talking to after a day of talking to [s]strangers[/s] socially inept, borderline autistic,STW dwelling, short contract I.T managers.And Al.

The Mercian is lovely, but I'm sure uses stock lugs to make the frame. A Demon for instance is effectively the work of two bikes and then some. A tubeset is brazed up then cut up to create the lugs. This is then used to make the finished product along with some very intricate filing. There was also a mention of Rob English, I'd imagine the bikes he's renowned for will cost in excess of 2k as stated.

The Mercian is lovely, but I'm sure uses stock lugs to make the frame. A Demon for instance is effectively the work of two bikes and then some. A tubeset is brazed up then cut up to create the lugs. This is then used to make the finished product along with some very intricate filing. There was also a mention of Rob English, I'd imagine the bikes he's renowned for will cost in excess of 2k as stated.

OK that helps

But of course that doesn't actually make the bike any better.....

End result should be something stunning that potentially lasts you a lifetime.

All bike frames potentially last a life time. Not all are stunning

Nearly bought a custom MTB in about 199?. It would have been 26 inch wheels, steep head tube, geometry corrected for an 80mm fork and had v=brakes. I'm sure it would still have some uses but I don't think it would still be paying me back. I bottled spending the money as were moving house and bought an Orange Gringo instead, alloy and made in Taiwan. That is still going strong and I'm not sure that a steel frame would have ridden any better

The lifetime reference was relating to the tattoo analogy.
Of course mtb frames in particular have moved on dramatically over the last 5/10/15 years - road bikes not quite so much.
From a personal perspective I'm looking for a road/touring style frame, I'd chose to run discs, settle on a head tube then just let the angles do the talking. I'm not saying I will fork out £4K at all, I was just listing how I think the eye watering figure can be justifiable.
Personally again, I'm sure I'd settle for something less than half that price when it comes down to it.

For what it's worth, I'm not having a go at hard working people forgetting my name in the midst of a mob - that's totally understandable. In my case I actually waited till the stand was completely empty before approaching, was awarded 30 secs, then suddenly dropped like a dog egg. Either way, perhaps you're more forgiving than I - but it made me feel less keen to do business.

that doesn't actually make the bike any better.....

We all covet different things - most people cannot afford the things that literally make them drool in admiration. Some of us can afford to do just that when it comes to cycling - which is a sport that is interestingly fused with tradition/craft/mechanics/artistic expression.
Someone willing to fork out £4K on a frame is probably also someone able to view their cherished bike as a work of art.

I spoke to Paul & Cy from Cotic, and someone whose name I forget from Shand at the London bike show this year and found them all to be really glad to just talk about bikes (or at least, really good at pretending they're enjoying talking about bikes). Even the guy from Singletrack seemed pleased to have a word (although that was last year).

Easy to see how a manually intensive product can cost so much. As above, at a rate of £50 per hour to cover all costs that is only 80 hours work.

If you don't want to buy a manually intensive one off product or don't see the point then don't buy one.

I wouldn't buy such an object (bike frame, guitar or anything else) as I am happy with mass produced standard products but it is not difficult for me to understand how such a product could cost £4K

Looking at how much bespoke furniture goes for I reckon bespoke frames are all bargains...

I think my main gripe was one guy (4K guy) pretty much dropped me mid sentence to continue a chat with another fella that he must've started earlier in the day.

The other guy was clearly buying one of these preposterously expensive frames.

Sounds like you dodged a bullet there.

🙂

Haha! You may well be right

This place is very odd sometimes. In what land is it OK to shout about something being 'preposterous' when a bloke is charging £50 an hour for a lot of his very skilled labour? Y'know actually suggesting he's ripping people off while he's actually coming on here to talk about bikes.

F2f you'd probably get a smack for being so rude. Think it's too much? Don't buy - easy. It's the same chippy cobblers spouted during the usual debates about non essential purchases on here.