I don't get it. its a race, breaks away, doesn't make it, doesn't get the jersey by 5 seconds. yet feels that he should have been allowed to get his hands on the yellow.
I'm newish to following this road malarky - please can someone explain why people feel he should have been allowed the jersey?
As a footnote, that judge who disqualified Cav yesterday is a complete and utter unit. That much I do understand!
Wasn't it his team that did some of the work chasing him though?
Nah, they'd get to the front and sit up.
He's annoyed because he didn't get it, regarless of the situation. Got to take it out on someone.
His team were in the awkward position of trying to be at the front of the pack to get sprint points, but without trying to speed up the chase. I think Cav's constant looking over his shoulders towards the line seemed to be him trying to be in front by as little margin as possible.
he was annoyed with Astana as he was told they were driving on the front, annoyed because he worked is ass off on all of lance's tour wins, but lance must have ok'd the chase even though he knew George wouldn't be able to stay with him in the mountains (not sure astana did chase thoughas i didn't see the whole stage)
+ as cav demonstrated, you can be a bit emotional straight after a stage and adrenalin is still pumping
Perhaps if Hincapie wanted the jersey that much he should have been pushing hard for the line in the last 10km instead of sitting up waiting for others to chase down the breaks. Sure, he would have towed the rest of the break up to the line, but he had everything to gain from it.
Bad tactics from him I thought.
It's more likely that it was the fact it wasn't the sprinters or the yellow jersey team that chased the breakaway down. Astana & Garmin had nothing to gain by chasing the break, no GC threat in the break, Hincapie would have lost the jersey by tonight, They're not concerned with the Green jersey. So it did seem to me that the wrong teams were doing the work
edit, agree with the above. I'd have though Hincapie would have buried himself and sacrificed any chance of a stage win to grab the yellow
Astana chased at to stop the break getting a huge gap. they had to do this.
Big George was more pi$$ed that the rest of the breakaway wouldn't help him get the yellow, when he was doing a lot of the driving to keep the breakaway away.Once the breakaway was established and the main pack had no chance of catching, pretty much every rider in the break sat up, so George spent the last 20-30 k knowing he wouldn't get yellow.
I can understand why he was miffed, but you have to work for the yellow.
For what it's worth, the bunch could have brought the time down an awful lot more if they had wanted too.
I was surprised that Nic Roche led him in at the end being as how Roche is in the yellow jersey team though as it happens it didn't matter. None of the teams really led a chase from the peleton although Astana made sure they stayed in touch without knackering themselves for the mountains. I reckon Cavendish was hard done by but Thor is showing himself to be a right whinger over the last couple of finishes. It'll be interesting to see how Cavendish reacts in his riding from now on - which will be more important, finishing the event or finishing in green? Columbia HTC probably reckon to get more kudos from their teamwork in the Points Series than the likelyhood of Hincapie finishing the GC in Yellow although it did make it interesting as the peleton finished yesterday watching what was in effect a slow-mo sprint!
Big George was more pi$$ed that the rest of the breakaway wouldn't help him get the yellow, when he was doing a lot of the driving to keep the breakaway away.Once the breakaway was established and the main pack had no chance of catching, pretty much every rider in the break sat up, so George spent the last 20-30 k knowing he wouldn't get yellow.
I didn't see Hincapie doing much driving, but then I only saw highlights. Regardless, he should have kept going all the way to the line.
I have a feeling he was torn between a stage win and yellow and got greedy and wanted both.
Perhaps Garmin were chasing as they didn't want another American team in yellow?
[i]I have a feeling he was torn between a stage win and yellow and got greedy and wanted both. [/i]
nah...he wanted yellow. Stage win unimportant at this point, and he was in a break with Ciolek and Bennati so wouldn't have really expected the win had Ivanov not got away.
However, not only did he not get yellow, but they've now well and truly ****ed up Cavendish's chances of Green. All over unless Thor crashes. Stupid move, spectacular FAIL.
i found it odd that he was saying it was the "chance of a lifetime" post-race... maybe that was the adrenaline talking, but does he have so little faith in his own ability/longevity?
I can understand why he was miffed, but you have to work for the yellow.
he's been 'working for the yellow' for more years than anyone else in the peleton, you would have though they would have allowed him his day of glory.
So match fixing is allowed in cycling then?
Lifetime ban in other sports.....
The yellow jersey train did the damage in the end. Roches move looked odd at first, however if it was done under orders then it was bloody clever as it disrupted the breakaways efforts.
I thought Hincapie should of if possible taken a strong rider away with him, and let the other rider take the stage and him the yellow.
From what I've seen of the cavendish incident it seems to me that the barriers came out to him rather than Cav closing the door.
it's not match fixing. the overall result is not affected and any team could have done their own thing at any time. it's more like a batsman in his last innings before retirement on 99 not out and his captain declaring and not letting him reach his 100. there would have been no harm done if he could have stepped up onto the podium after being a tour rider for 15 years.
BlingBling - Member
So match fixing is allowed in cycling then?
Don't know about 'allowed', but it certainly happens all the time, and is widely known about.
xherbivorex - Member
i found it odd that he was saying it was the "chance of a lifetime" post-race... maybe that was the adrenaline talking, but does he have so little faith in his own ability/longevity?
He's 36 - would you expect to be riding for much longer at that age?
MrSmith - Member
it's not match fixing. the overall result is not affected and any team could have done their own thing at any time. it's more like a batsman in his last innings before retirement on 99 not out and his captain declaring and not letting him reach his 100. there would have been no harm done if he could have stepped up onto the podium after being a tour rider for 15 years.
Rubbish, it is match fixing.
If I let you win today, it'll be on the basis that you ride for me tomorrow, to help me up the mountains. Or maybe we'll just pay your team to ride for us wholesale (remember CSC a few years ago, with the brown enevlope through the car window.) Or it could be that I'm in a break, and I'll just pay you to let me win.
All happen on many occasions, and all affect the result, and it's happened since the dawn of pro bike racing.
you could argue that match fixing goes on between team members, after all some go to the front and do the work others are made to drop back or hand over their wheels if the service car is nowhere near. why don't they just have every rider do the whole tour but set off in 10min intervals? that would be a fairer race and get rid of the "match fixing".
He's 36 - would you expect to be riding for much longer at that age?
i'm 41!
but yeah, i get your point and it's fair enough, i didn't know how old he was. figured he was 30ish...
Match fixing? Jeez, that sounds a bit negative mate. It is called tactics, strategy , gameplay etc but not match fixing.(Its a race not a match anyway 😉 ) .
I find pro cycling facinating because there is such a lot of things happening on so many levels. It is like a game of chess where mountain biking is like a game of draughts.
he has worn yellow before though
Anyone got a video of what happened with cav? Missed the stage, and it sounds like I missed a lot..
Maybe it would have been a nice gesture if they'd let him have it, but I don't see that Garmin and/or anyone else have really done anything wrong here by choosing not to- surely it's up to teams to take the jersey, not for the others to give it to them? And as rocketdog says he has been in yellow before.
video of cav finishing sprint. he is innocent, the barriers should be straight in the last 100 m at least, thor is a whinger.
http://www.steephill.tv/players/tinypic/?title=tdf-09-st14-cavendish-finish&id=33c11z5
Well, he definitely wasnt trying to get out of the way, but the barrier also does go inwards where it shouldnt - but if there was a kerb or something there, they had no choice but to put the barrier there. Its hard to tell if he was innocent or guilty.
but I don't see that Garmin and/or anyone else have really done anything wrong here by choosing not to
The point being that Garmin gained nothing themselves by chasing. He wasn't taking it from them, but from AG2R - it was up to AG2R to stop him taking it if they wanted to, not up to any other team who had nothing to gain.
I was surprised he didn't drive harder for the line in the last few km - could only think he reckoned he was better off to get somebody else working with him, but why on earth just not time trial the last 5km?
Cavendish checks and looks to see where Thor is, and then moves off his line* to push him into the barrier, he knew what he was doing, and Thor was right to complain.
*this is the point here, Cav's run in is clear, ahead is just a team mate, all he had to do was keep going...he moved un-necessarily, it's dangerous and, against the rules...
but if there was a kerb or something there
If there had been a kerb, you'd expect the centre line to move as well, rather than the barrier getting closer to it.
The whole thing was entirely the fault of the organisers for not having a finishing "straight".
moves off his line
But did he really? Can you tell me the point at which he makes this deliberate move? From what I could see there was no deviation at all from a smooth line taking him to the finish. Certainly no sudden change of direction to block - if he did do it on purpose it was very clever to line himself up on a smooth line to block so far in advance, when he didn't even know what the barrier was going to do.
The point being that Garmin gained nothing themselves by chasing. He wasn't taking it from them, but from AG2R - it was up to AG2R to stop him taking it if they wanted to, not up to any other team who had nothing to gain.
Well, they kept probably their biggest rivals out of yellow, and aren't they entitled to do that? Aside from keeping Wiggins up there, and any one of dozens of tactical reasons they might have? I appreciate there's arguably a kind of vaguely 'unsporting' aspect to it but ultimately they haven't done anything wrong, and I can't help but think that nobody would give a toss if it was some other one of the other riders in that break who had a sniff of yellow.
I like Hincapie and I was really rooting for him to get yellow but I can't see that he's been as hard done by as all that.
If there had been a kerb, you'd expect the centre line to move as well, rather than the barrier getting closer to it.The whole thing was entirely the fault of the organisers for not having a finishing "straight".
Having just disagreed with you on Hincapie, I agree on this 🙂
Cavendish [i]was[/i] treated harshly I reckon.
Well, they kept probably their biggest rivals out of yellow, and aren't they entitled to do that?
I suppose they are, but they don't seem to be big enough to admit that was why they did it.
[i]If I let you win today, it'll be on the basis that you ride for me tomorrow, to help me up the mountains. Or maybe we'll just pay your team to ride for us wholesale (remember CSC a few years ago, with the brown enevlope through the car window.) Or it could be that I'm in a break, and I'll just pay you to let me win.[/i]
That happens all the time even in amateur racing, albeit in a much less polished and professional manner. Even 1/2 races will have some sort of structure and organisation within their team riders, working together to get their best contender the best result.
Just as an aside the brown envelope thing was one mechanic passing his phone no to another, nothing to do with CSC working for (then) Discovery Channel. But it goes on all the time, alliances formed and broken, riders collaborating for a common goal.
It was apparently Garmin team orders to chase the break down although Wiggins later said on his Twitter site that he didn't understand the logic behind it. It's not like it would have affected the overall too much.
Just as an aside the brown envelope thing was one mechanic passing his phone no to another, nothing to do with CSC working for (then) Discovery Channel. But it goes on all the time, alliances formed and broken, riders collaborating for a common goal.
Just a telephone number, in the middle of a race? okay......
Just happens that CSC worked their butts off for Disco during those few stages.
[i]Just a telephone number, in the middle of a race? okay......[/i]
I'm only saying what I've seen written about that stage... Win-win situation for both teams at the time though regardless of team orders.
You sure you've remembered that right and it wasn't a telephone number sized bung?
seems garmin chasing down yesterday played well for wiggins today!
seems garmin chasing down yesterday played well for wiggins today!
Thanks for that.
Cav - I don't suppose his disqualification has anything to do with this does it...?!
Nickc
I wonder if I would have seen it another way if the tables had been turned.
Though looking down on the finish, he did stay patallel to the barriers on the left, the barriers on the right did move in. So did he go off line, no.
[i]Cav - I don't suppose his disqualification has anything to do with this does it...?![/i]
no, it's to do with the fact that he blocked Hushovd. He moved across [i]before[/i] the barrier moved in, then held his line as it moved in. Hushovd had no chance.
Why is Hincapie annoyed? Did you not see? One of his team turned up in blue socks! Blue ****ING SOCKS!!! I'd be annoyed too.
According to Wiggo it was deliberate (the yellow jersey ting not the Cav sprint)
Bradley Wiggins in Besançon after today’s 14th stage of the 2009 Tour:“We thought George had the jersey at one (point), then [Garmin team manager] Matt White said to start chasing at the end so they didn’t get it. Columbia were going off a bit and it all got a bit chaotic. There was pidgin German being spouted all over the place."
seems garmin chasing down yesterday played well for wiggins today!
I don't see how garmin chasing george down has anything to do with how well wiggins climbed.
Can anyone explain what the hell you are all talking about? I am interested in the TdF but have no idea about the tactics etc.
I found myself agreeing with Phil Liggett on Cavendish. Liggett reckoned the Commissaire took against the intention to block Hushovd (which did appear to be there from the line shots) and that counted against him while the helicopter shot by itself didn't show much deviation. Liggett also went on to say that the punishment was excessive, which I tend to agree with too.
Could AndyP,aracer or someone point me int he direction of the regulations that the Commissaires are working off. I can just about cope with the french at a push if there isn't a decent English version.
It's irrelevant to how fast he is and only natural in someone so preternaturally talented etc etc, but while Cavendish has managed to moderate his crowing when he wins we were treated to a full blast of sullen spoilt-child whining when he was disqualified. Suggesting that Hushovd could only beat him by using the rules to stop him cheating was particularly charming. Who in da green already beatch? 🙂
Doesn't change the fact that the commissaire came across as a complete arse, from what I remember the conversation with the C4 presenter was along the lines of:
"I have decided, Cavendish is disqualified"
"Can they appeal?"
"Yes"
"What will happen then?"
"They appeal to me and I won't change my mind"
"So they can't appeal?"
"No"
...all said with a very smug grin on his face.
The commissaire didn't do himself any favours did he with his arrogant stance and self assured smugness. I didn't think Cav would hold on to the green through the Alps, but the commissaire's decison has effectively killed any chance he had.
With the heli shots it's clear as Old Git says that Cav remained parallel with the left barrier, and the right hand side barrier swung in to the path of the riders.
Cav did come across like a spoilt child though which again hardly wins him any friends in the peloton. He could help himself a lot more.
As for Hincapie, great guy but he isn't owed a yellow. What galled me more about that was the response from Bruyneel pointing the fingers at the other teams.
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