[Closed] So Enve rims....

I went off them after the Pinkbike review censorship scandal thing.

If you can really ride very well and the weight loss will give you podiums yes, they must be very good.
If you are a trail center mincer with too much money (or debt) they just make you look like a tosser IMHO.

What scandal? Do you have any links

They'll make you look like an MTB version of one of them ATGNI roadies who have ENVE rims.

Wouldnt risk it.

Get some Sun Doublewides instead.

Yes, what Pinkbike scandal?

Pinkbike reviewed them, the rims failed badly on them. They said this was because they had developed a small crack, but they chose to continue riding them, as the crack was so small that they felt most riders wouldn't notivce them. But the photos of the failure got edited out of the review and it all got given a quite poositive slant.

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I think Iolo makes a good point; I have a set after I gave up on my Haven Carbons (kept breaking spokes on the rear plus all the issues with the hub)and got a refund.

They build into amazing wheels and the benefits are definitely there but those benefits are more in their stiffness and accuracy rather than weight saving.

Yes they are relatively light, but you can get as light with alloy. The key difference is that the alloy wheels that are as light are nothing like as strong or, most notably, stiff.

Coming back from injury earlier this year I was taking it very easy on the bike (I broke my arm quite badly) and honestly, when not riding at ten tenths, I found the benefits of the Enve rims had disappeared. You really do need to be riding your bike at the limit before you really start to feel their impact.

I don't race; I ride for enjoyment and the Enve rims really do enhance that enjoyment. I would have another pair on any other bike I have in the future, in particular (and most especially) if I went to 29" wheels, where I suspect a very stiff and light wheel is essential.

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Wow, and at 750 pounds you'd be quite pissed.
Enve will demand this thread is deleted now.

those benefits are more in their stiffness and accuracy rather than weight saving

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If you read the comments on the review, the reviewer himself weighs in, and he's less than positive about the rims, and how the review was edited. The point that the rims only cracked, but the tester continued riding them regardless is a valid one, I suppose - the pics above are down to an already-cracked rim being ridden hard, as opposed to a sudden failure - but they still failed.

Also - Enve claimed that the wheels/rims were a "lighter, pre production" version - even though they were about 100g heavier than the claimed weight for their production wheelsets. And they replaced them with a set of "production" ones that were a further 30g per rim heavier. All very dubious.

5 minutes referring to my Roger Musson book and that rim would be sorted.

This is the Pinkbike review [url= http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Enve-Composites-DH-Wheels-Tested-2013.html ]HERE[/url]

It's pretty brief but the full story emerges in the comments section.

I suppose - the pics above are down to an already-cracked rim being ridden hard, as opposed to a sudden failure - but they still failed.

Get some D521's, they crack on the first ride out, yet continue to perform well, rather than falling apart.

Cynic-al

Have you spent any time on a set?

Ummm'd and aahhhh'd over carbon rims for my Niner but in the end went for some super light alloy jobbies instead.. 😀

I've ridden a 650b demo bike with a set. They look the monkey's.

But I was disappointed to find out that, despite absolutely hammering the bike - at 10 tenths - down the final descent at Afan they just felt like wheels. I couldn't honestly tell the difference between them and the alloy wheels on the other similar demo bike.

It's a bit of shame really, cos I really [i]wanted[/i] to be blown away by them - after all carbon rims are supposed to have some 'magic' quality about them. I am a complete carbon whore in all other respects, but I can honestly say - they just felt like wheels!

Those Pinkbike photos are a bit scary. 😯

If you want stiff wheels, get some 24 inchers, or even 26 inchers.

£750 for a rim is just nuts.

If your are a carbon whore then there are carbon wheelsets around for that kind of money.

Are the ENVE rims really that good?

In Enve's defence many alloy wheels have failed in the same disastrous manor.
Its's just they were a bit cheaper

In Enve's defence many alloy wheels have failed in the same disastrous manor.

But the manufacturer of those alloy wheels didn't then have the carnage edited out of a review that would be seen by thousands of people or claim to have accidentally supplied superlight prototype rims.

That is a fair and valid point

Is it pronounced 'Envy' or 'Env' out of interest?

It's like everything really, people with a lot of money will always be able to justify something as being 'worth' it, even if it is just because owning them makes them feel good. Nowt wrong with that I guess

EDIT : Or 'Enveh' or 'Envuh' maybe?! 😀

Interesting to hear about the PinkBike cover up. Another thing that seems to have been suppressed is Bryceland's wheel failure at MSA. A quick search doesn't find anything about the incident apart from a claimed 'wheel build failure', but to me I remember thinking that the it was the rim that had totally blown (similar to those PB pics) and expecting to hear more about it in the media...which never happened.

It didn't look like Bryceland's rim failed, was watching it live, was more hub/spokes (all related, I suppose)

DH WC racers blowing up rims isnt really news though is it.

But wheel build failure? At that level? Really?
At a back street LBS maybe. But World Cups? Come on

At a World Cup previous to MSA there was a video with one of the Syndicate mechanics who was talking about them experimenting with lower spoke tensions.

Bryceland's failure looked like they went too low on the spoke tensions, and the wheel completely detensioned and collapsed. Rim looked fine.

750 pound rims blamed on wheel construction?
More likely the rim

OK. I stand corrected

Why would you buy Enve over Lightbicycle rims? Just the name is all I can think of!

What benefit would lower spoke tensions give? Make the wheel less stiff? 🙂

DanW - Member
Why would you buy Enve over Lightbicycle rims? Just the name is all I can think of!

Five year, no-questions-asked warranty. Or you could just get ten sets of Mavic/Stan's rims.

Mmm. To be fair, if a customer noticed a crack in an Enve rim, they'd do a warranty replacement or damage replacement, they probably wouldn't keep riding til they exploded. So the pics are probably a bit unrepresentative of how it would play out, they could give a false impression. I cracked a Stans rim and a couple of Mavics, retired them because I'm not a goon, so I have no super-dramatic pics of exploded wheels.

I don't have personal experience of the ENVE rims as £750 a pop is way too steep for me - but I bought some a Chinese made Light-Bicycle rims to see how they would hold up; and if carbon rims were to feel amazing then I would have an idea if £750 for ENVE's was worth it.

I was loving the feel of the wheels and was confident enough in them to leave them on for the Trans-Savoie... Unfortunately I damaged my rear rim on the first day of the race when I went into a rock garden a bit "hot"... sounded like a gunshot going off but I only found the damage when back at the campsite... and it held together for the next five days of racing; although it was no longer tubeless after day three (the rim damaged the tyre sidewall hence the gel wrapper stuffed in it.

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On the same section of trail someone else damaged an ENVE rim in almost exactly the same way, although mine looked worse and his remained tubeless all week. Neither failed catastrophically and nobody died. If I’d paid £750 I would probably be pissed off, but having paid about $200 I can suck it up – sh*& happens and stuff breaks when you ride bikes hard.

What I've learned is that carbon wheels do feel very good - the stiffness of the rim when you build the wheel up is noticeable, like building a wheel with a strong DH rim. On the bike the wheel doesn’t get squirmy and deflected like a lightweight XC wheel yet they accelerate like one – very responsive is how I would describe them. Now I’m back on a Flow rim out back I do miss the feel of the Carbon rim. Light-Bicycle say they have improved the design of their rims so I’m very tempted to buy another.

Much as I liked the feeling of the carbon rims I could still do a lot more with £750 a pop… and there is always the “risk” that I do something stupid and damage a rim (Flow rims have lasted anywhere between 2 rides and 2 years with me as I have a tendency to break stuff).

If the ENVE's were indestructable then maybe £750... but they just don't seem to be that tough which means for me they are price point too far. How ever many year warranty replacement is very good in theory but replacing broken parts is always a pain in the arse.

I cracked a Stan's rim on a Hope Hoop, hope replaced the rim and rebuilt the wheel, no questions asked

Five year, no-questions-asked warranty. Or you could just get ten sets of Mavic/Stan's rims.

But the benefit of these carbon rims is supposedly better stiffness to weight ratio over alu. Lightbicycle have a one year warranty and are $150 with lots of very positive reviews. Given the price, and judging by the high mileage users racing on Lightbicycle rims and all the positive comments on MTBR they seem to have fewer negative comments than Enve too... Seems like a win all round

[i]they seem to have fewer negative comments than Enve[/i]

I wonder if that's just the fact that people will 'put up with' things on a $150 rim that they wouldn't on a $1000 one?

they seem to have fewer negative comments than Enve

I wonder if that's just the fact that people will 'put up with' things on a $150 rim that they wouldn't on a $1000 one?

Very possibly, however the lower price point probably also means that more people ride lightbicycle than Enve so you would expect more failures for the same overall percentage of failures on both rims. They seem to be the go to option especially for riders of larger wheels looking for good value stiff wheels so I would have thought there should be more negative comments than there seem to be

messiah - Member
I don't have personal experience of the ENVE rims as £750 a pop is way too steep for me - but I bought some a Chinese made Light-Bicycle rims to see how they would hold up; and if carbon rims were to feel amazing then I would have an idea if £750 for ENVE's was worth it.

I was loving the feel of the wheels and was confident enough in them to leave them on for the Trans-Savoie... Unfortunately I damaged my rear rim on the first day of the race when I went into a rock garden a bit "hot"... sounded like a gunshot going off but I only found the damage when back at the campsite... and it held together for the next five days of racing; although it was no longer tubeless after day three (the rim damaged the tyre sidewall hence the gel wrapper stuffed in it.

Do you think that impact would have killed an alloy rim? I often used to find dings in my D521's, but you could bend them back out with a pair of pliers.

What benefit would lower spoke tensions give? Make the wheel less stiff?

There is Mavic research which shows that the spoke tension has no effect on the lateral (side-to-side) stiffness of a rim once it's tight enough for the wheel not to de-tension.

What you do get with lower tensions is less radial stiffness, which gives you a bit more compliance and grip. Wheel suspension if you will. Of course the risk is going too low and having all the nipples loosen as load goes on and off them as the wheel rotates.

I'm not sure there is much benefit to lowering spoke tensions with an Enve rim, being as they are so stiff on their own. Over-tensioning a single spoke on an Enve build has much less effect on the trueness of a wheel as would an alloy wheel, thus it is easier to over tension one spoke and crack the nipple seat in the rim (seen this). If you're building an Enve wheel, buy a spoke tensiometer to go along with it.

I LOVE how people bad mouth products because they're expensive rather than actually riding a set to see if they're any good.

If you don't like them, don't buy them. Don't bitch about it because you simply can't afford it...

I also love how people will happily spend a small fortune on frame and suspension components but baulk at spending an equivalent amount on their wheels when actually they can make almost as much difference in ride quality as the frame.

a lad i ride with occasionally has a regular riding buddy who has a set, first ride on them in the peak district, on the first descent of the day and the rim cracked!

it seems looking at other peoples reviews (and messiah) that they are not overly keen on rocks! im sure they are fine for racing on and probably if you dont live near rocks, but from the personal reviews ive read id be slightly wary (if i could afford them)....from what i gathered though hes having it replaced FOC anyways so its not really the end of the world....like someone else said stuff breaks, whether it be expensive or otherwise, carbon frames break, alloy frames break, alloy wheels break, and clearly carbon do too

i personally unlesss i won the lottery, wouldnt have a set of them for riding the peak district, but if i lived darrrn sarrrf way and was loaded id defo consider a set as i think theyd be fine elsewhere

Dougal - Member

There is Mavic research which shows that the spoke tension has no effect on the lateral (side-to-side) stiffness of a rim once it's tight enough for the wheel not to de-tension.

What you do get with lower tensions is less radial stiffness, which gives you a bit more compliance and grip. Wheel suspension if you will. Of course the risk is going too low and having all the nipples loosen as load goes on and off them as the wheel rotates.

I'm not sure there is much benefit to lowering spoke tensions with an Enve rim, being as they are so stiff on their own. Over-tensioning a single spoke on an Enve build has much less effect on the trueness of a wheel as would an alloy wheel, thus it is easier to over tension one spoke and crack the nipple seat in the rim (seen this). If you're building an Enve wheel, buy a spoke tensiometer to go along with it.

Yeah - that's what I was driving at. "These new carbon wheels are AMAZINGLY stiff. Now. How do we build them up so they're not so bloody stiff?"