[Closed] Slack road/gravel bikes

Vintage pathracer

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Check out the Trek in this video:

Whyte Friston/Gisburn is, relatively speaking, long and slack.  The Gisburn comes as standard with a dropper although a crotch-grab style one.

I've got a Friston which is great, they're definitely grav bikes aimed at MTBers looking for some drop bar action.  It's aluminium but is far from a harsh ride especially with 42c Resolutes on.

I have a vintage path racer like the one shown above.

Slack is shite and floppy.

Slack is shite and floppy

Care to expand on that a bit ? I can see that optimum road/gravel geometry will be different to optimum off-road, but modern MTBs seem to have geometry that would have been dismissed as crazy slack a few years ago, but is now accepted as a better option for many people. I certainly found my FlareMax to be strange (yes, even floppy) at first but now I'm surprised to find that I actually prefer that chopper feel even on the road. Combine it with drop bars and maybe it's terrible, but those old tourers were presumably built that way for a reason.

Slack
Long

slack yes, compared to a road bike but not to a MTB but long? not really as most are based on road bikes so will be short to counter the out front hoods. try a test ride on one first. tech terrain on a gravel bike is not good with a long top tube and a short stem, it gets all twitchy and you bang your knees on the bars.

for this effect try drop bars on a hardtail mtb. the reach will be longer and lower  and a short stem and narrow bars will make it an "engaging" ride.

I has one of those Hite Rite springs back in the 80s, was on a Fisher Hoo-Koo-E-Koo IIRC....

tech terrain on a gravel bike is not good with a long top tube and a short stem, it gets all twitchy and you bang your knees on the bars.

Isn't that an argument for making it slacker then ?

Don't know about slack, but if its' long you want, just buy an XL rather than a L like I did...

The only reason I can see for road bikes being short and steep with long stems is to maximise aero advantages, particularly when slipstreaming. I'm curious to hear others!

Salsa Cutthroat? Although it's carbon frame iirc.

tech terrain on a gravel bike is not good with a long top tube and a short stem, it gets all twitchy and you bang your knees on the bars.

I'd disagree with that to a certain extent as like all things bike related its a mix of geometry, wheel size, riders body proportions etc. I love tech on a longtop tubed short stem drop bar beastie with a pretty mad geometry, but then I run massively wide drop bars, and hooligan over stuff, so probably a lot closer to the sort of bike the op was on about rather than a trad gravel/tourer. definitely agree about testing lots and finding one that works for you, it may be a surprise as there some very capable gravel bikes out there even if they have a more "traditional" geometry

@tazzymtb Do you find that you are much slower on the road with such a beat though? I guess you're getting more into "monstercross" territory than "gravel" (if either of those terms actually mean anything).

@chiefgrooveguru I don't know about slipstreaming, but I think aero may be the flaw in my logic. Narrow bars are probably required for aerodynamic efficiency and anything without them may be a fair bit slower on the road, where speeds are higher. Once you accept a narrow bar it does seem that a long stem and steep head angle have to follow.

Isn’t that an argument for making it slacker then ?

Slack on the road would make fast cornering horrible & no handers harder. Compromise needed for gravel especially in the UK as most routes will involve tarmac at some point

@tazzymtb Do you find that you are much slower on the road with such a beat though? I guess

If you are worried about ultimate speed, watts & aero etc I think a gravel bike isn't what you want. But they will go a lot faster than an MTB so again compromise between on road & off road efficiency

@roverpig Its more monster truck than monster cross, (titanium, 29+, 675mm wide dropbars, booze holders, and extra "look at meeeee flange" but happily moshes along big old gravel events and out descends pretty much every other gravel bike and the rougher, looser and gnarlier the better. Yes its a bit slower on the road**, but that's more a function of me usually being a sodding singlespeed luddite, although I am currently on a 6spd home made system that mounts onto my ss rear hub for a laugh.

** any slacker, fatter, knobblier thing will be slower on the road, but then road riding is grim and something to be endured to get to the fun bits, so the ability to make tractor noises, wheelie, do endos and generally muck about in a way that would make the spandex chaps have an attack of the vapors, clutch their pearls and worry about their VO2Max is a win for me.

Slack on the road would make fast cornering horrible & no handers harder

My FlareMax with its slack head angle is the easiest bike I've ever had for riding no handed. I'd pretty much given up riding bikes no handed to be honest. Then I was riding the FlareMax on the road one time and just did it and though "this is easy, must be the slack head angle". But I've heard a few people say that slack head angles make it harder to ride no handed, so I'm not really sure what's going on. Not that no handers are a big thing on my wish list, but it's strange that I find them (along with track stands) so much easier on my FlareMax than any other bike I've ever owned.

After trying out a few gravelcxy bikes I’ve decided to have a custom steel one done based around Whyte Gisburn/Friston’s geometry. 70* head angle with 180mm headtube and slammed 100mm stem, 74 seat tube and 595mm ett seems to work well for me at 6’2” with the body of an ape.
The best gravel bike I’ve ever had a pleasure to find myself on, I can’t imagine going back to a steeper and shorter geo. Couldn’t care less about KOMs though and only bimble on one gear so I’m not worried about lack of speed and or aero position.
LLSFTW!

Thanks @tazzymtb 29+ ? Yes, that's another itch that needs scratching one day 🙂

"Slack on the road would make fast cornering horrible & no handers harder"

Why do you think that? Steering geometry theory says that slacker equals more stability when going in straight lines or constant radius turns.

Not understanding the less aero aspect. It is still a road bike with drops and if the fit is the same in regards to saddle to bar distance it will make no difference other than change the steering feel/response.
Less aero would occur if you raise the bar height, which is not being suggested here.

I am out anyway as I love the feel of a responsive and nimble road bike on road and off road.

True, but a slacker head angle probably does require a shorter stem and wider bars to make it work and wider bars are less aerodynamic

cervelo aspero is probably a good bike for you as it's labelled as a "racing" gravel  bike, so fast every where apparently. might be difficult to load up for bike packing/touring as it has minimal mounting points but sounds like a lot of fun to ride

cervelo aspero is probably a good bike for you as it’s labelled as a “racing” gravel bike,

It probably is but is that deemed long and slack as certainly doesn't look any of those. It actually looks pretty short as rear wheel is right against seat tube and very little gap between front tyre and downtime. Hard to tell head tube angle but again doesn't look any different from a roadish bike.

I've just bought this Specialized Sequoia. Swapped to 650B as soon as it was out of the box, with 47c WTB Senderos. Steel, 70deg head angle.
It's a blast to ride... Like a rigid MTB but still fast enough of the road. Billions of mounting points if you want to add racks etc.
Only thing missing of your list is dropper capability but that's fairly easily fixed.

[img] [/img]

Damn double post

Ragley Trig is steel, dropper compatible and has a 70 degree head angle.

http://ragleybikes.com/products/trig-adventure-complete-bike-2019/

Marin Gestalt X11 also looks good and has dropper compatibility too

https://www.marinbikes.com/gb/bikes/20-gestalt-x11

Perter Verdone is designing and prototyping some amazing bikes that are really pushing the boundaries. The detailing is just incredible.

Check out his thoughts http://www.peterverdone.com/2018-pvd-bird-of-prey/

He goes on to make his own bars https://www.peterverdone.com/bi-planes-are-the-future/

Thanks folks. So it looks a though 70 degrees is considered slack in the gravel market. Well by everyone except Peter Verdone that is 🙂

That PVD bike is the first drop bar bike I actually want to ride!

That PVD is odd/interesting looking. Proper drop bar for a mountain biker!

That PVD bike is the first drop bar bike I actually want to ride!

Same thought here

roverpig

Care to expand on that a bit ?

The proof of the pudding is in the riding thereof. Shite and floppy.

It's an entirely different thing from mtb geometry.

1. Rigid fork v suspension. Telescopics work better at an angle in the mid 60s, it helps reduce stiction and stutter compared to a steeper angle.

2, Usage. Slack mtbs are aimed at descents, ...

I could go on about trail, offsets etc, but it is really better for you to try a slack rigid bike rather than me pontificate. (Always bearing in mind that unicycles make a nonsense of most steering geometry ideas and the human body can adapt to some quite wold geometries 🙂 )

I could go on about trail, offsets etc, but it is really better for you to try a slack rigid bike rather than me pontificate.

Agree. Guess the whole point about needing a slack road bike is missed on me but I don't get why anyone would want a bike to ride on tarmac roads that handles slowly and has floppy steering.

But then people ride touring bikes I suppose and they are longer and slacker but that is to bring stability when loaded isn't it?

that PVD is doing similar things to some of the bikepacky folk have done with stooge mk2's etc... If you want mental stuff have a look at the stooge dirt tracker (a bit normal) or the stooge gravel bastard (total nutter, long top tube, short stem, 650b+ rags around trail centres and launches tabletops in a manner that is really rather surprising)

This is something I've dabbled fairly extensively in.
I'm pretty close to sending my numbers off to Waltly Ti for my third custom frame.
This one is a 29er primarily for rigid bikepacking / gravel riding.
I've tried a very slack HA, but for this type of riding, prefer a good old fashioned 69HA but with very long reach and short stem.
This keeps the wheel well out in front for secure descending, but keeps handling snappy. It also means you can use readily available forks, instead of having to get custom ones made with 100mm offset like my current ones.
It's worth lengthening the chainstays a bit to keep a bit more weight on the front wheel, without having to push through your hands.
High front end is preferable IMO, but appreciate concerns with that if aero is important.

I could go on about trail, offsets etc, but it is really better for you to try a slack rigid bike rather than me pontificate.

It wasn't until I read this that I realised I (kind-of) have. I've ridden "trail" rigid fatbikes for a few years with head angles around 68 degrees. It's notable that whenever I've done anything to make them slacker (such as running a smaller rear tyre) I've found it improved the feel (for me), even on road. But, of course, a bike with a 3Kg wheel is going to feel very different to a gravel type bike.

the stem on that PVD is awful, why not make the headtube taller then run a normal stem instead of a skyscraper?

“don’t get why anyone would want a bike to ride on tarmac roads that handles slowly and has floppy steering.”

Because on roads you basically ride in straight lines compared to what we do on our far slacker mountain bikes! Why wouldn’t you want massive stability so you can relax and pedal or coast at very high speed, without distracting steering nervousness?

That's basically my logic too. I make far more frequent and more extreme changes of direction off-road that I do on (due to twisty trails and the need to go round, over or under obstacles). Yet I'm happier doing that with a slack head angle. In fact I now seem to prefer that steering feel even when I'm on road. Mainly because it feels so stable in the bends, so I can really weight the front and carve the turn. On a road bike, even in the middle of a turn, it just feels too light to feel confident leaning into it. For a skilled rider I'm sure that ability to make small corrections to the line mid-corner is an advantage. But for me, I'm much happier if I can just trust that it will hold its line.

Of course, if the whole world yings and you want to yang, you have to accept that you might be wrong. There may be a good reasons why road/gravel bikes are better with steeper head angles. I just don't understand why (yet).

the stem on that PVD is awful, why not make the headtube taller then run a normal stem instead of a skyscraper?

If you read the rest of his writings he is building a custom wing bar for it.

Also he seemingly has little concern for aesthetics, pure function led design.

Care to expand on that a bit ? I can see that optimum road/gravel geometry will be different to optimum off-road, but modern MTBs seem to have geometry that would have been dismissed as crazy slack a few years ago, but is now accepted as a better option for many people. I certainly found my FlareMax to be strange (yes, even floppy) at first but now I’m surprised to find that I actually prefer that chopper feel even on the road. Combine it with drop bars and maybe it’s terrible, but those old tourers were presumably built that way for a reason.

For the OP, I'd agree with the above. Tourers weren't meant for giving you the best chance of avoiding a wheel touch when things get twitchy in a bunch. Just for ploughing on without a fuss, loaded up, potentially on fairly lumpy ground.

The steep angles on many gravel bikes strike me very much as a marketing thing - making it "feel"/handle like a racer, but it's pointless unless you're going to find yourself using it for that purpose, which nobody is. My current commuter handles like an absolute barge but that's fine, I'm not riding it in a twitchy bunch. Similarly for most people a road bike isn't going to be raced in a bunch (me included to be honest, only raced in a bunch on the track), so if you prefer the feel, go slack.

And sure, anything you'd want to ride off road, a dropper is going to make the descents far more enjoyable. Some suspension forks may be a good idea, too?

Why wouldn’t you want massive stability so you can relax and pedal or coast at very high speed, without distracting steering nervousness?

Personally, I am more likely to get nervous on the road with a bike that's slow to react to my steering inputs.

But it's not really that slow to react is it? Sudden unexpected events happen far more frequently off-road than on and yet we're all happy riding slack bikes off road now. If I can dodge that rock, hole, root etc that I didn't see until the last minute on the trail then I should be able to cope with anything I encounter on a road.

As I said earlier, I'm quite happy to accept that I may well be wrong. There may be a good reason why a road/gravel bike is better with a steep head angle, but I've yet to hear a reason that makes sense for me.

Yes, it allows you to get closer to the rider in front and if you spend a lot of time in a bunch that's probably reason enough. But I don't, I mostly ride on my own.

Yes, if you compete for bunch sprints, but again that's not a situation I even find myself in.

Other than that, all I've really come up with is that "it feels faster", which is fair enough. If a faster feel makes the ride more fun then that's a decent reason. But set against that, I've been watching the carnage in Yorkshire. It seems to me that quite a lot of crashes (particularly when the rider is out on their own in the wet) are just a result of losing control of the front end. So, if it's just a case of feel and it's not actually any slower in reality I think I'd accept it feeling slower in return for more chance of staying rubber side down.

^ I think the crashes are zero to do with HTA and all to do with bunch riding. Race bikes are a tad lighter steering / lower trail than I like for general road use but I've found only negatives by going much slacker or more out-front on the front wheel - you lose front wheel weight distribution and that also causes bad crashes (as I have found). You can correct that f wheel weighting with a longer CS or a steeper STA but this is a road-ish bike and all those things have negatives or are solutions to problems that are marginal, eg corrected with half to a degree HTA or 5mm offset change, subtle stuff. By all mean go way out on numbers simply if you like the feel though. I've tried a load of stuff in this area and come back to both a renewed respect for Italian road bike design as well as not liking slack drop bar bikes in any way (or the lower trail opposites tbh).