[Closed] Single pivot climbing ability. Your experience compared to other designs?

The rider and set up is more important than the design, IMO.

Other way round for me, I've had a Reign, Trance, Cube Stereo, Mega, Bronson & now a Tallboy as well as spending a fair bit of time on a 650B Five. I found the Five was nasty to climb & just didn't make any sense to me up hill at all (bobbing, felt heavy, nasty angles etc), especially when compared to everything else I've ridden or owned recently, but downhill it was one of the most fun things I've ever ridden.
Horses for courses & all that

i find with a smooth pedal stroke it doesn't really make a lot of odds.

mash the pedals with loads of upper body movement and they'll bob like an apple...

I'm very tempted by the Heckler. I could quite possibly go insane trying to decide which of the very many floating pivot point type designs to go for then wondering if I made the right choice.

Whatever frame I go for I'm looking at doing a really nice light weight build with carbon wheels and stuff so that should help with the climbs I suppose.

I've recently gone from a heckler to a banshee spitfire. The spitfire alot better grip and most noticeable on square edge things where the back end doesn't hang up and slow your momentum. All things considered (weight shift, standing/sitting, shock tune, chairing size etc) the banshee multi pivot is loads better. My heckler needed new bearing every year anyway.

without a fangled shock or lock out, one of these with a filing cabinet on top ime
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Back around 2001 I rode a Marin which was not set up for my weight, and it felt horrid. Incredibly bobby. I now have a single pivot (well, faux bar so I do still have millions of pivots to replace when they wear out :() which is set up for me and it rides fine. Weighs a tonne but apart from that climbs fine.

In between the two I had an I drive, and it did pedal well, but it cracked years before I got the single pivot, and comparing either to a hardtail probably isn't fair.

Recently gone from a DW link bike to a single pivot and the climbing is the only downside, I much prefer it for everything else however.

Had a Canyon Spectral, now have a 2016 Orange Five.

The Orange Five climbs just as well, if not better

HTH

I loved the Heckler when I rode a demo of it - both up and down it was great. I personally thought it rode better than the Bronson mk1 I demoed back to back the same day earlier this year.

Funnily enough the Heckler had the same bog standard Fox Evolution shock on it... exactly the same model as on my Orange Five S 2nd-hand 2013 which I bought a while after demoing the Heckler... and that bike feels brilliant to ride too.

I rode a 4-bar linkage bike for a year or so before I bought an Orange Alpine and I've not had any issues with single pivot and all the myths that are out there at all. They're just a lot of fun. Climbing is not an issue at all. I don't see there's any worse pedal bob (in fact the Orange bikes feel very efficient) or any braking issues either.

I wouldn't worry. A well thought out SP bike can be tuned from the shock.

I think proper bike fit is really important so demo as much as possible before buying.

My Superlight had a definite 'bob' to it when you climb, but you quickly adjust to it and stop noticing, unless you lock the shock out, then you notice that your not peddling quite as smoothly as with the shock open.

mash the pedals with loads of upper body movement and they'll bob like an apple...

Depends on where the pivot is relative to the chainline. Plenty of single pivot designs bob less than four bar designs.

Pivot design is reasonably far down the list of things that affect climbing performance, imo.

There's as much variation in 'Single Pivot' bikes as there is between SP and non-SP, before you even take into account geometry, shock tune, and rider ability/inability.

I've ridden good, bad, and average examples of most designs, there's a general theme of what works for me, but I've been surprised by a few bikes over the years and I wouldn't ever discount a bike based on it having a particular pivot setup.

There are some behaviours inherent to the design, the degree to which they show themselves, the degree to which they can be tuned in or out with shocks and the degree to which any particular rider will notice (or care) vary massively so...

Ride some bikes, lots, demo days, borrow from mates etc. and make your mind up about which ones [i][b]you [/b]like the feel of for the riding [b]you [/b]do most of the time[/i].

FWIW - one of my simultaneously most hated and most loved bikes was a SP, and it was brilliant both up and down, or terrible, mostly dependant on which chainring I had it in at the time so its never clear cut!

The only real single pivot I’ve tried is a Trek Y3 URT – It’s not great at much tbf.

I currently ride a “faux-bar” multi-linkage single pivot (Centurion LRS) which climbs very well with its platform shock.

I’ve also ridden a Spec Epic which is the same except for the addition of a Horst Linkage and a SC blur which is a virtual pivot point.

The LRS and the Epic were like riding a hardtail really, supposedly the shock along the seatstay reduces bob which increases the pedalling efficiency. The Epic’s blowout valve was set very high though, was a demo ride and was set for my weight but not my preference.

The Blur wallowed a bit more, although if you hammered it the suspension almost locked out and it felt like a short TT hardtail.

I’ve never thought about the linkage when climbing to be honest – maybe back in the day before tunable air shocks with a platform it might have been an issue. Now with dropper posts and height adjustable forks I’d be more worried about matching colourways 😉

Not sure if this will help but my heckler climbs much better with a dpa pike dropped from 160 to 130. Previously had a 150 rev and the front end used to wander all over the place.

I ride a Superlight and find it a great all-rounder, mind you it's the only full-susser I've owned. The only fault I can find is that there is a bit of pedal kickback when going uphill over rocks in the granny gear. it doesn't seem to bob much either, Santa Cruz seem to have got the pivot position just right.

My Heckler is set up as an "Alps Bike" with offset bushes and a basic coil Marz 55 160 fork, so its no XC climber, but is built for the downs!! It climbs fine though, managing the Glentress Black & Inners Red with no issue.

In terms of the SP, Ive no idea what Scruff is doing to his Heckler that requires a new Pivot Bearing every year!! The Heckler is definitely a very simple, no-nonsense bike that can do anything.

First off, you need a demo, a well setup bike and a good route representative of the type of stuff you ride.

Second, I agree with Gelert. In fact, having rode his single pivot bike before buying my Alpine that got rid of any preconceptions about suspension bob or inefficiency; it blew my then Specialized Enduro into the weeds in that department.

The Enduro was super plush but really needed to be locked out to get a good damping platform for pedalling; I got frustrated more than once racing on it that I just couldn't get it setup to ride plush on the DH but firm enough wide open for the inevitable mid-stage sprints. I don't want to be reaching down to lock out my shock on a stage, thanks.

Conversely, the Alpine is excellent. The only time I lock it out is when on the road and only occasionally on a fireroad, if at all. The Enduro needed to be locked out on anything non-technical.

The climbing traction in fully open mode on the Alpine is superb and even during hard pedal sprints it doesn't feel like I'm losing anything significant.

The downsides are that the shock DOES need more careful tuning. At least the monarch on mine does. Before fitting some volume spacers I found the ride harsh and it would bottom out too easily. It's better now after some fine tuning, or maybe just gotten use to it. You also need to get the rebound tuned just-so. Faster is better for my tastes.

Despite the criticism from some, I don't see (m)any downsides, at least not in the 2014/15+ models. I can't comment on the earlier versions.

For a more objective take on it, I found that I bettered many of my Strava PBs on uphill segments on the Alpine which, for a 160mm 15kg bike must mean it is at least a little bit efficient!

You really should try one first though as I can see how they can be a bit marmite for some.

I was amazed how well my patriot with a ccdb coil climbed.

Absolutely no problem keeping up with people on much lighter bikes of all designs. Amazing traction.

Wasn't so good with the fox van rc though.

If the SP bikes I demoed had ridden badly enough that it was massively noticeable over the other pivot designs I'd tried I'd not have bought any SP bikes but it was quite a revelation when I rode the SP bikes how much fun they were and nimble with very well balanced handling and great geo (felt good to me).

For out and out pedal traction (read uphill) ability I've not demoed a trail bike that felt like the Nomad v3. That thing felt like it lurched forwards extremely well to me. The Heckler was faster downhill though on the day but was beaten by the Nomad uphill. I know, I know... but the stopwatch doesn't lie.

The demo Orange's weren't far behind but it was fun factor that won it. Mine are quite a bit lighter than the demo ones now too. I'm happy.

I'll keep demoing new bikes though because it's great to try out new stuff and find out what you like or don't and what size in a range fits you incase it comes up for sale in the future.

Had no problem going to single pivot not a huge difference on climbing for me. Test rode a Heckler and bought one then took it back and traded it for an Orange 5. Feels much better on ups and downs. All personal preferance though.

Don't know about the Heckler but the Orange bikes climb perfectly well.people will tell you that they need a good expensive shock (and that was true in the past, but even basic shocks nowadays are better than most 10 years ago. A simple RP23 makes a Five climb well.
It's more about the geometry, pivot placement and rider than the single pivot. And orange have got the pivot placement and geometry right.

Tom KP

I'd agree with all said above. Good climbing is more about shock set up and smooth pedalling rather than number of pivots. I currently have a single pivot - Orange 5 (much better 1x11t btw than dual ring) and Trek Fuel /Specialized Stumpy FSR 29er multi pivots.

single pivot will never climb as well or as nicely as other designs but it can be tolerable and it does descend better

FWIW i have both and it just depends what you want

Also not having to change loads of pivots and bearings is a massive plus to ownership

Junkyard - lazarus
single pivot will never climb as well or as nicely as other designs but it can be tolerable and it does descend better
FWIW i have both and it just depends what you want

Not true at all. Single pivot can easily climb better than linkage driven single pivot, four bar or short-link four bar (which are basically all the other suspension types). It depends ENTIRELY on where the effective pivot points are vs the chain line for each suspension design.

What single pivot (linkage driven or simple) cannot do is achieve great pedalling without having noticeable pedal feedback or brake-squat, due to the fixed pivot position, whilst the four bar designs have a pivot which changes effective location through the travel. Also, simple single pivot usually struggles to achieve a decent leverage curve on the shock (see what Orange did with their latest DH frame to get away from a falling rate design!)

I did find when I tested the Heckler that it felt like it was struggling to get over square edged type bumps going up hill because the way the suspension works is to force the back wheel into the ground under power which was a good thing until it got technical. I did however enjoy the supportive feeling. I hate the saggy slack thing other bikes can do when you're going up hill. My Trance was like that I could never get the shock dialed to my liking found the ride dull and ended up going back to hardtails for 5 years.

I think one of the things that appeals to me about single pivot is the fun factor. The Heckler was great going down hill and people rave about the Orange bikes too. The main thing is that I end up with something that is really fun to ride not just boringly efficient but if it can do both that's great.

. It depends ENTIRELY on where the effective pivot points are vs the chain line for each suspension design.

As I said before, a single pivot will not always bob more. Two examples:

Orange 324 vs Specialized Demo
Orange Alpine 160 vs Knolly Chilcotin

But put the 324 against a V10C and the latter bobs even less and does everything else (suspension-wise) better. Or the Alpine against a Banshee Rune.

It can all be accurately modelled and predicted in software. A four bar with the effective pivot point in line with the bottom bracket will always bob far more than a single pivot with the pivot just above the chain line.

Bob isn't an issue, seriously. I've owned two Oranges, they do bob every so slightly if you look down at the shock, but it's nothing you notice on the bike. The platform damping is such that the period of oscillation would be far slower than my pedalling cadence.

There are other issues though, with pedal feedback. But tbh it's just a characteristic of the bike, not a problem really. I mean the bike's got seven inches of rear travel, that's far more of a factor. You work the thing over obstacles on climbs and it behaves how it behaves and you ride. Probably different to some multi pivot, but I can't see it as an issue.

Gone from a 650b Whyte quad link to a Five single pivot ,and I have to say the Five is quicker up the hills, and a lot more fun coming back down

I don't think pedal bob is the man issue here they all do that to a certain extent it's more about forces working against each other restricting the climbing ability of the bike.

Owned 2 Hecklers (older)
04 Enduro FSR
SC Blur LT VPP
Rocky Element (Whatever variation their smooth link is)

Biggest bonus for long smooth climbing is a great lockout....

For technical climbing the combination of FSR and the Brain Shock worked really well for keeping rear traction, the VPP seems to do the same. (It took me a moth to fully realise the damping had gone on the CTD leaving it on Descent mode, the climbing performance was still good with a fully open shock.

The SP relied more on the shock to stop bob and make it an efficient climber which dented it's ability on the technical/rough climbs.

On top of that I've done decent half day demos on..
Five
Alpine 160
Nomad
RM Altitude
Various newer enduro's
older Kona's
and lots more

Doing more winch and plummet riding SP with a good lockout would be a decent option, on more technical climbing a prefer the VPP/FSR keep the traction and wheel planted approach.

As for rock strikes and the rest take a look at the SC Testing Video where they are trying to smash a carbon nomad frame against a square edged concrete pillar, it tells you a lot about the strength.

As for bearings, it's not the driest here despite being in Oz and I've changed one set of lower link bearings in the Blur in over 2 years of solid rising so again I'd rather have well designed and sealed bearings over just having less of them.

If you've not made your mind up after 2hr **** rides, the differences probably don't matter and you are over thinking it.

I was v happy with my Heckler, but I CBA buying into all the marketing crap around different designs.

Does an oval chainring smooth out the impulses sufficiently to reduce pedal bob?

I think a lot of bob is the rider bouncing about like a gorilla, sit and spin will smooth most stuff out. I own an old heckler and hemlock 4 bar. The heckler was running a coil shock with no platform for a long time, yeah a platform shock helps especially for climbing but smoothing out your pedalling helps more.
The thing I notice about SP is the stiffening of the suspension when in granny ring, not great for getting up technical stuff, the 4 bar remains supple through out (less of a problem with 1x and other designs of both type will presumably vary)
Also notice the suspension stiffening when braking, seems more noticeable on the sp than 4bar.
Whether either of those is worth the extra hassle of 4 times as many bearings to replace is arguable and how the bike rides is more important but I like the way both of mine ride so just concentrating on the suspension here.

Had Fives, an Alpine and a Patriot and all seemed to be fine up climbs with a well set up shock. Latest Monarch with the stock Orange tune seem to do the job nicely without compromising grip and feel elsewhere.
Surely riding position on the bike, clips vs flats, tyre compund, tyre pressure, etc. make more of a difference than the suspension design?

An oval chainring will actually reduce anti-squat by moving the chain line up towards the pivot at the point of maximum torque.

The suspension on all bikes stiffens under power as you shrink the chain ring. This post shows how it affects a short link four bar (VPP), a conventional four bar (Horst link) and a single pivot:

http://linkagedesign.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/tablas-de-anti-squat-tutorial.html?m=1

100% anti-squat is ideal for an average rider when seated. Taller riders need more, shorter riders less. Excess anti-squat increases pedal kickback and brake squat unnecessarily.

An oval chainring will actually reduce anti-squat by moving the chain line up towards the pivot at the point of maximum torque.

Or have I misread/understood your post (quite possible)

No, you've got biopace and new rings mixed up.

No, you've got biopace and new rings mixed up.

I think a lot of bob is the rider bouncing about like a gorilla, sit and spin will smooth most stuff out

Agree about the granny and the orange works better with a 1 up set up IMHO

The thing I notice about SP is the stiffening of the suspension when in granny ring, not great for getting up technical stuff,

Sometimes you can use that extension to your benefit. It's all part of the technique.

+1 for Junkyard's comment re the benefits of a 1x set-up