Very tempted to go for X01 - probably keep my existing cranks and just get shifter/cassette/chain/mech and a narrow/wide ring from some other brand - but have always used, preferred and trusted Shimano - and if their answer is just around the corner, I'd prefer to wait.
Anyone got any rumours/knowledge?
There doesn't seem to be anything immediately on the horizon. Either Shimano engineers are on holiday or there is a massively well kept secret going to come out of nowhere.
I never thought I'd go back to SRAM but XX1 really is rather good. Very different to XTR in feel (you would know which was which if blindfolded) but in a good way.
Their 11 speed road set up is very good (ultegra 6800 11 speed on one of mine) so I don't think it's too much of an effort to knock out an 11 speed mountain bike version.
The question for me is why?
With a 10 speed 36t cassette I've never felt the need for more, maybe Shimano feel the same?
Shimano also seem to want the double chainset market so maybe that has something to do with it???
XTR Di2 will break cover at Sea Otter next year I reckon. Same as their road groups - ie wider free hub, but standard spline arrangement. 11-40 cassette with a single ring as an option. Purely speculating.
With a 10 speed 36t cassette I've never felt the need for more, maybe Shimano feel the same?
Assuming you acknowledge the benefits of a single chainring setup, this statement makes no sense to me I'm afraid. Shimano have been selling lower gearing that that avoided by a 1x setup with a 36 cassette for years, so why would they now think it's a sufficiently low ratio? Have the hills got shallower or have we got stronger? 😉
make your own 10sp version with this adaptor?
http://www.ruedasalacarta.blogspot.com.es/2013/08/xx1-y-bas-ss1.html
when I eventually concede that a 11-36 cassette doesn't give enough range I'll probably set one up with a 38 or 40t ring.
I'm fully with the anti-sram camp too, a 10-42 cassette that costs 250 quid can GTF!
Stilltortoise, I've never had a problem with a double chainset, front mechs rarely go wrong and they double up as a handy chain catcher device.
For XC racing I can understand the weight saving of a single ring but when I've gone to the effort of putting dual ply tyres on a bike, burly wheels, wide bars etc etc then the few grams saved by ditching the front mech seems pointless.
Having a double setup also means I don't have to run an overly large (or expensive) cassette.... the SRAM xx1 42t cassette is the price of a lot of complete setups on some people's bikes!
Purely by chance I just stumbled across a comment on another forum from Jason of Fairwheel bikes (a high end shop in the US and Jason usually seems to know what is going down before it happens). If Shimano's offering is going to be electronic then I would much prefer XX1
I can not wait till some one does 1 x 11 Electronic 10 - 42 :thumbup:It's won't be as long of a wait as a lot of people seem to think.
deviant, you're lucky that your front chainring/shifter has never gone wrong. I went 1 x 9 a couple of years back only because my front shifter stopped working 🙂
The other advantage of a single ring setup is in the design of full suss bikes, since there's only one chainring to worry about in relation to the pivot point.
Granted if you don't believe in the advantages of a single ring setup, you're never going to "get" XX1.
Yep, XTR Di2 is their future.
DanW - Member
Purely by chance I just stumbled across a comment on another forum from Jason of Fairwheel bikes (a high end shop in the US and Jason usually seems to know what is going down before it happens). If Shimano's offering is going to be electronic then I would much prefer XX1
Hmm. My wallet is wincing a the thought of that. There was a rumour on MTBR of a 10 speed Shimano 11-42 cassette, would be happier with that.
If Shimano brought out a 10-speed 11-40 or 11-42 cassette they would surely pull the rug from beneath sram at mass end of the market. The cassette would be immediately compatible with pretty much any and all current set-ups.
It's going to be funny watching the electronic Shimano MTB group bomb. I don't even want that crap on my road bike let alone on a MTB.
Idiots. Sure the quality of lower SRAM kit doesn't come close to Shimano but their R&D on the upper end stuff has gone in a much better direction.
Xtr di2 is definitely coming in 2014 and its almost certain to be 11 speed using the tech from the 11 speed dura ace and ultegra di2 group sets 😉
Jcl you post some proper nonsense mate 🙂
Di2 xtr bombing ? Just like dura ace has ?
I guess if Shimano go electric and stick with 2x10, they can use self-trimming technology to ensure good clean performance across the gears, which is one current plus of 1x11 (ie. no chain rub)
10 speed 11-40 is all that's needed
Clutch mechs and narrow/wide rings are the first toll of the front dérailleurs death knell
If Shimano are smart an xt cassette at that spec will sell like hotcakes
The ability to jump from one end of the block to the other in 1 click would be nice
11 speed and possibly electronic shifting maybe nice but they're not the game changer a budget 1x10 wide range setup offers
[i]It's going to be funny watching the electronic Shimano MTB group bomb.[/i]
Can I have a bit of what you're smoking? 😆
I'm surprised no one has released a 11-40 cassette as well,be it shimano or someone like hope. As has been said whoever did would clean up. The off put of xx1 is the cost of cassette and having to get a xd driver to fit it on. A wide range cassette on a standard free hub seems like a no brainer and would convert even more people to a single ring set up.
nonk, bit different having all those servos and cables all over an MTB eh?
Di2 is just for roadies with too much coin to spend on crap. The majority of the pro field would rather not have it.
Have Shimano previously stated that they wouldn't be happy with such big ratio jumps as an 11-40 cassette would entail?
If you're reading this Mr Shimano - I wouldn't mind!
It's going to be funny watching the electronic Shimano MTB group bomb. I don't even want that crap on my road bike let alone on a MTB.
Idiots. Sure the quality of lower SRAM kit doesn't come close to Shimano but their R&D on the upper end stuff has gone in a much better direction.
If I wasn't on my phone I'd post the Fry: "not sure if trolling or just stupid" picture.
For njee:
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Yep, XTR Di2 is their future.
This.
MTBers are quite a closed minded bunch at the best of times which won't help Shimano and electronic shifting. XX1 isn't exactly affordable and even 1x10 in the cheaper form has had a mixed uptake. Adding the cost and complexity of electronic shifting on top of all of that must limit the potential market for Shimano to MTBers even further. I'd imagine XTR Di2 would be double the price of XX1 even when it comes down to CRC style prices and could fully understand if it didn't really take off.
MTBers are quite a closed minded bunch at the best of times which won't help Shimano and electronic shifting.
On the other hand, if someone could sell me reliable shifting that wasn't dependant on the cleanliness of my gear cables, I'd be interested.
MTBers are quite a closed minded bunch at the best of times which won't help Shimano and electronic shifting. XX1 isn't exactly affordable and even 1x10 in the cheaper form has had a mixed uptake. Adding the cost and complexity of electronic shifting on top of all of that must limit the potential market for Shimano to MTBers even further. I'd imagine XTR Di2 would be double the price of XX1 even when it comes down to CRC style prices and could fully understand if it didn't really take off.
EXACTLY.
It's a solution to a problem that didn't exist.
Maybe they've already thought of that though eh? 😉
MTBers are quite a closed minded bunch at the best of times which won't help Shimano and electronic shifting.
Yeah I know what you mean... Silly travel suspension systems, carbon composites, hydraulic disc braking, various drivetrain configurations (3x10, 2x10, 1x10, 1x11, 1x1... etc), several different wheel sizes, various Headset, BB and axle standards... Obviously none of that lot ever sold, so leccy shifting doesn't stand a snowball's chance.
Big range cassettes for mechanical Zee (11-42ish) first followed by 2x10 or 2x11 leccy XTR/XT, then a 1x11 big range leccy XTR would be my uneducated guess.
Of course shimano often seem to follow their own logic/plans which don't always follow the market...
CF and hyro disc brakes have clear performance advantages and even then were reasonably slow to take off since their inception.
The use of the various drivetrain configurations, wheel sizes, headsets variations and BB variations have less clear advantages and a more mixed reaction from manufacturers and the MTB buyers. It isn't that electric 1x11 or 2x11 is necessarily bad or that it wouldn't sell to some, just that the market for such a thing will be even smaller than XX1 for example, which itself is only affordable or attractive to a very small number or people.
SRAM seem to have released the right thing at the right time whereas Shimano are a bit late to the party without any clear advantage to make it stand out and justify the extra cost to a big enough market. Adding the electric element in to the product will likely divide opinions and reduce the market further.
You can already run Ultegra or Dura Ace Di2 on a MTB yet people are hardly rushing out to do this. At the moment such set ups are more niche than that rigid Curtis on the recently closed thread 😀
11 speed and possibly electronic shifting maybe nice but they're not the game changer a budget 1x10 wide range setup offers
I agree.
It isn't that electric 1x11 or 2x11 is necessarily bad or that it wouldn't sell to some, just that the market for such a thing will be even smaller than XX1 for example, which itself is only affordable or attractive to a very small number or people.
Was it not ever thus? I mean what ~25 years ago and extra sprocket appeared on XTR and I'm sure at the time 8 speed was not required or demanded by the market or customers, now its just a distant memory only available on alivio, they play the long game, that's how "trickle down" works, take a loss on introducing a feature on XTR leccy shite fting is more of the same, unaffordable, pointlessness today deorelevel standard in a decades or two...
yeah but clutch mechs made it xtr -> deore in a couple of years, e-shifting has a much higher price tag, cant see it coming down to budget spec levels soon enough to really catch on
similarly even xo1 is (unjustifiably?) very pricey for minimal performance gain over a potential 1x10 with 11-40
not that us mtbers arent willing to spunk cash for a small perceived improvements, but they need to be relatively affordable and that means upgradable as easily as possible, eg new cassette shifter,mech,chain kept me away from 10 speed until this year throw in new cranks and hubs ala srams 11 speed, no thanks.
I have seen more XX1 and X01 equipped bikes recently than 650b, it's catching on fast over here in Oz and lots of people speccing it on new and older bikes. They are mostly the fitter ones though.
There is plenty Di2 road users out there but the fact you need to go back to a shop who has the correct software and plugs to tune it when it goes wrong seems to be a little but frustrating. With the inability of some companies to make simple components weather proof for mountain bikin I'm not sure how Di2 is going to come over to the mtb world and survive.
On 1x's side is also the immediate weight saving that ditching mechs, shifters and cables offers you over any 2x setup.
Was it not ever thus? I mean what ~25 years ago and extra sprocket appeared on XTR and I'm sure at the time 8 speed was not required
The difference is that cassettes with extra cogs don't cost any more or weight any more than their predecessor which is easy to buy in to (even if a little unnecessary).
Electric XTR Di2 would most likely be expensive, hard for the home mechanic to maintain/ fix at the trailside and all without any real clear benefits (a single cable to a conventional rear mech is not hard to maintain and 1x eliminates the front mech trimming advantages) and a harder concept for the majority of MTBers to buy in to or even afford in the first place.
I am really hoping Shimano come up with something special beyond our wildest dreams though and quash my cynacism 😀
Have Shimano previously stated that they wouldn't be happy with such big ratio jumps as an 11-40 cassette would entail?
If you're reading this Mr Shimano - I wouldn't mind!
That was one thing, and something to with the way the mech moves across the block.
The SRAM 11 speed mech moves/works differently to accommodate the big range of movement over the cassette.
Anyone who has used a general lee cassette can see it's a bodge & the mech doesn't like it too much...
Never underestimate the power of the "more money than sense" brigade. If it exists, and is marketed strongly enough, cyclists will buy it. And in substantial quantities.
deviant - Memberwhen I've gone to the effort of putting dual ply tyres on a bike, burly wheels, wide bars etc etc then the few grams saved by ditching the front mech seems pointless.
That's exactly the sort of bike where never losing the chain ever again is the biggest plus tbh (though o'course also where the loss of low gears is more of a bummer)
lolz at the haterz. 1 x 11 is the next best thing after a dropper and disc brakes!
Love my XX1.
Pinkbike have done this review just for us haterz
Got to agree with obelix. All my roady mates sneered and mocked Di2 but one by one they are all buying it, usually with the excuse that it came with a new bike! You can always find plenty of people to buy stuff because it is new, shiny and is marketed cleverly. I can't believe Shimano haven't noticed the money SRAM are making on xxi.
Im amased no one has made a walk around hope hub free hub with the bottom two sprockets machine into the free hub and fit the cassette from the rear. Modify a shimano ally carrier and you've got a 36-10 cassette where the sprokets that wear the most taken from a standard £30 item.
Im amased no one has made a walk around hope hub free hub with the bottom two sprockets machine into the free hub and fit the cassette from the rear. Modify a shimano ally carrier and you've got a 36-10 cassette where the sprockets that wear the most taken from a standard £30 item.
Hope already did a 9-36, 9 and 10-speed, (machined) cassettes for the Pro 2, but never got it to market.
There are also tales of people cannibalizing Capreo cassettes (and of course FH bodies) to make 9-32 or 9-34, 9-speed cassettes for MTBs or touring, not sure what Hub bodies they use for this though...
If your ever feeling Flush enough to own an S-works Demo 8, Specialized use a bastardized Capreo cassette, custom DT Free Hub body and limit set 9-speed X0 parts to operate a 7-speed 9-20 cassette, Christ knows why of course, other than to make it cost the earth, wear out faster and spare parts harder to obtain...
The point I'm not really managing to make is that 9 tooth sprockets, which could massively increase the range of a cassette without the need to fit a diner plate at the top, have been in production and use for a while. Shimano have adopted them only in one rather "Niche" group for folders, and Hope had what seemed like a very good pop it ~3 years ago but for some reason (cost?) never put into production (at least not Yet?).
A a 1x10 or 1x11 9-36 Cassette with a 28t chainring would actually give a pretty broad spread of gears, almost comparable with 10-42 without the need for quite such a diner plate, shimano could actually do that, but I don't reckon they will, they are basically too stubborn and TBH too fixated on Di2.
But then it's worth remembering this is still a pretty small corner of the market, there are still plenty who would find even the discounted prices for X01 obscene, most of the actual revenue for Shimano and SRAM's MTB parts will still come from 2/3xN kit in the SLX/X7 and below ranges sold for OEM use, in that respect "Dynasys" is still pretty competitive and durable in the land of sub 1K complete bikes...
Current Top end trickle down to these levels will take at least a couple of years post XTR/X0 launch, meaning SRAM are probably ahead at present...
I look fwd to watching the new XTR curve-ball strike : )
Current Top end trickle down to these levels will take at least a couple of years post XTR/X0 launch, meaning SRAM are probably ahead at present...
except that SRAM is made of cheese and has crap reliability from a manufacturers point of view.
Oh and the spares are obscenely over priced.
