[Closed] Shimano XT brakes on an Orange 5

You will probably want a bleed kit Sewell for re bleeding the rear brake after threading it through the swing arm. I Lehigh discs is it that you have got with your hopes? Are the floating rotors? You have to watch the thickness oddities as they vary between brands but you should be ok. Might be worth giving them a clean up before putting the new brakes on though.
Finally, I am pretty sure my dad used an old straightened coat hanger to help thread the new brake hose through the frame, as there isn't a sleeve for it to follow.

when you remove the old hose, either attach some string to pull through the swingarm or attach the new hose and pull it through.

Double check the rotors cover the pad area completely using your adapters (assuming you're not running 160mm rotors on post mount both ends - unlikely on a 5 I suspect). If they don't get Shimano adapters.

I had XTs with an Avid adapter, this put the calliper too far away from the axle, leaving an area of the pads at the top unworn. Eventually these met, with the rotor spinning away in the work area beneath ... and all of a sudden I wasn't getting much braking power!

a bit of a footer to get the hose in, but good advice above and lots on here if you search.

It has always surprised me that Orange stick with Hope brakes and Raceface chainsets on the 5's rather than just going Shimano which is generally preferred and I'd have thought could be had cheaper for bulk purchases.

I had an 08 one and the brakes and chainset were first things I changed, within months

Thanks guys.

So I'm a bit of a dunce on these things. Do I have adaptors already attaching my hopes to the bike? So it's making sure that the pad is all over the rotor when I fit them, if not go with a shimano adapator which will make sure it covers?

Probably. If there's an adapter, it'll be between the calliper and the frame or fork.

You'll need an adapter for your XTs unless your rotors are 160mm in diameter and the mounting is "post mount" not "I.S.".

Yes.

See http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/if-my-worn-xt-brake-pads re my pad wear issue.

Yeah I agree iainc. To be honest I blamed the hopes being bad on pads for ages... then I tried these XTs and had a chat with some folk in the bike shop and they really put me off my hopes. To the point where I think i'm unsafe with em!

Thanks Matt that's great. My rotors are 160mm i believe. I'll check out the mounts that are on there, but I may be best just getting shimano mounts so I don't end up with a wear issue.

Whilst I'm doing all this should I up the rotors to 180mm or is that daft as I only weigh 10 stone?

If you use the same rotors and the same adaptors, you'll be fine. Just swap the callipers. I'd go 180mm front and 160mm rear, personally, but whether you notice the difference or not I don't know.

I had XTs with an Avid adapter, this put the calliper too far away from the axle, leaving an area of the pads at the top unworn. Eventually these met, with the rotor spinning away in the work area beneath ... and all of a sudden I wasn't getting much braking power!

The issue is usually something to do with Shimano using metric (180mm) and SRAM / Avid using different (imperial?) measurement and ending up with slightly bigger 185mm rotors. That 5mm caused the problems you describe. I think now Avid have fallen in line and they just use 180mm across the range.

Trail bikes often come with 180mm in the front and 160mm on the rear.

But if you're happily riding 160mm front in the UK there's probably no need to change.

If you're off to the Alps or somewhere with long descents where the rotor is going to get really hot, put a 180mm on the front - the larger surface area dissipates heat more quickly.

180mm will also give you more 'power' because the calliper is further from the axle so has more leverage, but at the expense of some modulation. Do you need more power on the front? (probably not).

then I tried these XTs and had a chat with some folk in the bike shop and they really put me off my hopes. To the point where I think i'm unsafe with em!

Thanks guys.

So Superficial... you reckon I'll be reet with my current adaptors and rotors?

I probably won't need more power to be honest as my current brakes are so bad I don't tend to brake! If I do brake with the new ones and have too much power I'll probably go over my bars!

you reckon I'll be reet with my current adaptors and rotors?

Yes, I do. But I wouldn't stake my SingleTrackWorld reputation* on it. I'm 95% sure you won't need anything extra but there's always the chance that something weird will happen and the callipers will foul the adaptors or something. The only real way to check is to suck it and see.

Also, as Mattjg say, this:

Double check the rotors cover the pad area completely

(*I'm not under any illusion that I actually have any forum reputation to speak of)

Yeah I agree iainc. To be honest I blamed the hopes being bad on pads for ages... then I tried these XTs and had a chat with some folk in the bike shop and they really put me off my hopes. To the point where I think i'm unsafe with em!

Unsafe ? Really ? Bear in mind the number of people riding around quite happily using Hope brakes. If they were unsafe don't you think we'd know about it? Fair enough if you prefer the feel of Shimano brakes. That's just personal preference. But there is nothing wrong (and certainly nothing unsafe) with Hope brakes.

But there is nothing wrong (and certainly nothing unsafe) with Hope brakes.

I'd go as far as saying that all hydro disc brakes are absolutely fine out of the box - until the point comes when they stop functioning adequately. And from what I hear, the wrongness occurring with Hopes is more frequent than with other brands.

I don't think any brand has yet perfected the brake that continues to work year on year without some sort of hassle.

Yeah sorry... unsafe was probably a bit over the top. They aren't very good at stopping me dead though... I feel that I have to hope to do that.

Superficial excellent use of the asterisk for your own terms and conditions 🙂 I'll go with the suck it and see approach. Now then... black or silver... 🙂

If you think your Hope brakes are unsafe get them fixed, I wouldn't trust the LBS, send them to Hope.

Have they been bled? If not, do that before you shell out for the XTs.

Hope make good brakes in my experience. I have no experience of a properly installed and maintained Hope being unsafe. If they are, Hope will want to know about it.

a chat with some folk in the bike shop and they really put me off my hopes. To the point where I think i'm unsafe with em!

Yowser what did they say?

Do they mean with your brakes specifically, or with the model or brand in general.

Yeah I bled them thinking that would sort them out. Also changed the pads across various brands and bedded them in with all the standard fly down a hill and lock on techniques. To be honest fella I'd love the work better... i think they are a really nice looking thing. But for they have never had the stopping power that all my mate riders have with their brakes.

Just looking over a few reviews it does seem that stopping power is low on their list with the x2's?

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/components/disc-brake-systems/product/review-hope-tech-x2-11-37522

Some interesting stuff from hope regarding power & rotors etc

OK - could be the seals need changing. I had some Hopes that needed that, neither of the 2 LBSs I took them to diagnosed it, they just screwed about with the positioning and told me it was fixed. I DIM'd in the end, and ceased expecting competence from LBSs in the meantime.

Seal change is no big deal and is standard maintenance. You can DIY or send them to Hope.

As for XTs vs X2s - I ride both, both stop me fine.

^^ good links Mike.

Mattjg... It was about hope brakes in general.

Honestly i'd love to love the Hope's and get them working with bite but I really don't feel that with them. I'd happily stick with them if I could get them stopping me rather than fading me to a stop. Do you know what I mean?

For sure - ride whatever gives you confidence of course.

Give Hope a call, see what they say

I think Orange go with Hope because they are British, work well and have excellent back up from the factory so very much in line with the way Orange operate.

My X2 Hope's have been faultless and stop my immense weight OK so I'm happy to stick with them.

My previous XTs were equally as good but when the piston's got sloppy they couldn't be repaired so that put me off buying another set.

But do you think it might be mechanical fault, me not bleeding them correctly that may have caused the issue?

What i'm getting at is how do you x2's feel to you. Can you grab the lever and stop dead flat?

Maybe it's worth an email to their customer support for some advice. I really want to love the brakes...

My previous XTs were equally as good but when the piston's got sloppy they couldn't be repaired so that put me off buying another set.

How long did this take?

(Is it right that basically XTs are disposable in the sense that no maintenance is possible other than pad change and bleeds?)

(Is it right that basically XTs are disposable in the sense that no maintenance is possible other than pad change and bleeds?)

The hope deal for strip & rebuild will return them to new. If there is a fault they might do it for nowt. I dropped into their support tent at the mega and came out with amazing feeling brakes on some very old Ti6/M4 combo

I've got X2 Race and have ridden a few bikes with Shimano XT brakes. I can lock either wheel with one finger with the Hopes (183 front and 160 rear), which is all the power I need. The Shimano brakes were great too. I prefer the modulation of the Hopes (slightly less chance of throwing me off if I grab them in a panic) and the spares availability. But it's a subtle difference and I can see why some folk prefer the more immediate power of the XTs.

Can you grab the lever and stop dead flat?

No, I don't need to. Stop dead flat means the bike is stationary and you are airborne.

My XTs are sharper than my X2s, yes. I also like the Servowave feature, I think it's useful for typical UK conditions (ie mud).

But my X2s have all the power I need just the same. Once a wheel's skidding, more 'stopping power' makes no difference.

Get the Hopes working right. Not everyone likes the feel, some folks prefer the less subtle Shimano lever feel as it can feel more powerful. But Hope don't make a bad brake these days, at worst you'll make them fit for sale but more likely you'll find when they work right, they do you fine. I wouldn't buy a set myself, but, you already have 'em.

leftyboy - Member

I think Orange go with Hope because they are British, work well and have excellent back up from the factory so very much in line with the way Orange operate.

Nah, it's the perceived value thing (if you doubt it, ask why they fit Avid, obviously not because they're british, they work well and have excellent backup from the factory 😉 ) Lots of logo management in Orange full builds, Pro 2s with maxles to snap the axles, and cheap cassettes that gouge them, bolted to Mavic 317s which are too skinny and not that strong but have a yellow oval on them...

Yeah stop dead might have been over the top. I was getting at the feeling of bite.

I just don't want to throw money at trying to get more bite into the brake if it's just not achievable. Now I'm in two minds.

It's perfectly achievable to get your X2s working nicely. A seal/piston change is reasonable after 2-3 years use, certainly. You can do it yourself very cheaply or send them to Hope. They quoted me about 90 quid to overhaul my set of Tech X2s

Will you be satisfied with them compared to a new set of Shimanos? Nobody else can answer that.

Thanks Matt.

I've emailed Hope to see what can be done. I'll let you everyone know how it goes as if it gets sorted i don't want to have talked badly about a brand due to my own repairing skills!

XT's and X2's are both great brake sets. I prefer the X2's but there is not much in it.

I find with all the brakes I have had their braking efficiency drops with time and use. Be this due to pad wear, rotor contamination, seal degradation or they need bleeding. It's also fairly hard to get that new feel back. If you then go and try a new bike with new brakes it gets you feeling that your current brakes are pants.

My advice would be to get the Hope's serviced and replace rotors and pads at the same time.

+1 for getting the hopes working. At the very least that's a decent resale value to recoup the cost of XTs. Or you might find the hopes are fine with nice seals, a bleed, adjustment, and are working all nice again.

On a slight tangent, I always read "a lot of bite" to read "on or off, with little modulation" - it doesn't actually tell much about outright power.

Be this due to pad wear, rotor contamination, seal degradation or they need bleeding. It's also fairly hard to get that new feel back

Unless you do a full service and, say, repace the pads, the calliper and lever seals, clean the rotor, and refill with fresh fluid?

On a slight tangent, I always read "a lot of bite" to read "on or off, with little modulation" - it doesn't actually tell much about outright power.

"on or off, with little modulation"

I don't find my XTs lack modulation, they just need a lighter touch than my Hopes.

-1 for getting the hopes working.

sell them as they are, be honest and someone will take them off you hands for a suprisingly good price. I sold a set of M4's that needed a serious amount of work and bought a set of XT's instead for pretty much the same price.

That was about three years ago and I havent had to touch the XT's since.

Just got of the phone with the very friendly chaps at Hope. I'm going to do some maintenance on my brakes. He mentioned lubing the pistons which i've never done so maybe i'm just poor at looking after my brakes. I'll report back with how it goes.

Anyone else do this?

Nope not done that, probably should. Do the pistons need to be removed?

If you decide to dissassemble the callipers, bear in mind the bore cap on X2s winds inwards for removal (towards the centre of the calliper with a righty-tighty move), not outwards.

I ****ed up an X2 calliper doing this wrong, as it's reversed to older model Hopes. I lefty-loosened it with all my might because it wouldn't come out, which actually, was tightening it. Doh.

Check the exploded diagrams on the Hope site to make sure I'm not talking nonsense. It was a little while ago.

(I have stripped and rebuilt Mono Mini and M4 callipers successfully in the past, and have some X2s that now deserve some attention).

Apparently you can just squeeze some silicon grease on them and pull the brakes on and off to get them lubed.

He recommended this stuff: http://www.ukbikestore.co.uk/product/219/hopesilgrease/hope-silicon-grease-30ml.html

It goes under the name of hunters silicon grease and it's what plumbers use apparently.

I'm inclined to think I knacked up the bleeding process when I didn't tip the lever 90 degress at the end of the process and squeezed. He mentioned that and there is a video that describes the process.

I missed that step. I could be a dick 🙂

You're not a dick. Wanting your brakes to work nicely is most un-dickish.

I've not managed to get a good bleed on my Tech X2s yet, they may need a seal change I think, I've not had time to do it (should probably send to Hope). My Race Evo X2s are good. Light, pretty, and do all the stopping I need for the bike they're on.

The chap on the phone didn't mention seal changes to me, but perhaps he could tell I should just give them a bit of love first 🙂

Out of interest what pads do you run on yours?

Thanks

probably Hope sintered, not sure.

If you put organic on for the summer, it rains. If you put sintered on for the rain, it dries up. That's how it is.

Cheers Matt. I've got hopes on too... Think they are sintered as well.

I've just been out for a quick ride to test the feel again so I can describe it a bit better.

Basically I can pull on the front brake and it feels like there isn't anything there. Eventually it stops me but I would say it take a second or so. I've just adjusted the biting point to all the way in so the bite kicks in a little earlier. It has helped make the brakes feel a little more reactive but it still seems like I can ride along if I pull the front in with just one finger.

contaminated pads/discs i'd wager.

Hey del.

I reckon you might be right. Would cleaning the rotors sort? I'm thinking of hoping them to a 183 on front so if I changed pads at same time I guess that would let me know!

Well I just have to hold my hands up and say it looks like I was saying bad things about Hope and was completely wrong.

I just took of my front rotor and cleaned it with acetone (it's all i had to hand) and then hot soapy water and gave it a rinse. Took my pads out and they had a glaze to them. Sanded them back to the good stuff and refitted everything. Did a quick bed in and my brakes feel how they should again... there is bite there and I can't ride forwards when I'm holding the levers.

I even noticed that I have a 183 rotor on the front already!

With all this in mind I need to start taking care of my bike more. Any tips for a tool set up that I need for maintaining the bike greatly appreciated. I think i'll get a workstand to work on it.

Cheers for everyones help. You've saved me some cash. Sorry for dissing Hope :o)

Cheers for everyones help. You've saved me some cash. Sorry for dissing Hope :o)

Ha! Sorry to disappoint. I'll just look after these ones... They look far nicer than anything else so I'm really pleased they now stop me.

brilliant. today you changed your life, you can use the LBS when you want to not because you have to, and you can buy second hand frames and build them yourself too

key tools, you may have most:
* a set of normal hex keys
* a set of small spanners
* a set of the '3 in a star' hex keys, these are brilliant because usually the size you need next is already in your hand (but they don't always fit in tight spaces)
* a cable cutter
* a chain whip for removing cassettes
* cassette lockring tightner-upperer
* a BB removal tool

A workstand is a good idea, plus space to use it of course.

Other bits and pieces, get when you need them.

183 is not equal to 180, as I fear I have found by going to XT from X2 Tech for many of the same reasons. I've packed out the mount but there is still a 'ting' noise from I think the rotor when I lean on the front climbing or at speed.

Going to sub in a real 180 and see if that cures it. I didn't even know it was 183 till I had a really good look.

PS re: Tools - Lidl did a set of ballended Hex keys when they do their 'tool cycle' that are absolutely excellent, and 4.99 for a full set.

STW in "Happy Ending" BOMBSHELL 😀

Thanks Matt that's great info. I've always been a tinkerer but it's time to get serious 🙂

Is buying a set like this a good way to go?

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/x-tools-bike-tool-kit-18-piece/rp-prod40997

Or best to build up from individual bits? I need an ISIS crank remover for getting my race face cranks off... think that's included in there.

Don't know. I never bought a kit, perhaps I should have!

Love this thread, it has a special redemptive Friday feel-good factor.

Ha! Yeah I really do feel like i've been saved :o)

On another random thread... I'm thinking of changing my stem size. I rode a smaller framed bike the other day and could throw it around a bit more. Would shortening the stem size help that feeling a little on my 18 inch orange? I'm 5ft 11.

I was thinking of going Hope 50mm 0 rise...

well done sorting your brakes! 😀
shorter stem probably won't hurt you. I'm 5'10"andabit riding an 18" too. think my stems a 70mm. i'm also running easton vice bars @ 711mm IIRC.

Bugger, was betting on some cheap brakes

Me too. But I'll grit my teeth and say well done to popmatik for sorting it out. But only because it's Friday you understand 🙂

short stem wide bars, try it, you are unlikely to go back unless you are really skinny with narrow shoulders. I ride 750mm to 800mm, stems in the 50mm or 60mm ish.

(711mm isn't wide ...)

Thanks guys.

I'm actually really skinny Matt 🙂 so maybe wide bars won't be required? With a shorter stem would I get a twitchy front if I kept the standard bars that come with the five?

I dno what the standard 5 bars are, but short stem 'narrow' bars would feel odd to me. Very fast steering I would expect, and a bit unstable.

I'd say get some wide ones (760 maybe), ride them a bit, then cut them down if you don't get on with them. But you may well like them.

Oki dokes. So a few bits of buying to do. Maybe I should start with the tools first before I start throwing a load of money at new parts...

Good one popmatik. Nice bit of honesty too.

nah all you need for messing about with bars and stems is hex keys, and maybe a T25 Torx driver if you have SRAM [s]inconveniently specced[/s] treasured bits. dive in.

I mess about with bars etc a lot so only use 100% lock on grips, so they only take a moment to take off

a DIY store pipe cutter works very well for shortening alloy bars (and fork steerers), I believe you're,meant to use a hacksaw for carbon