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The market is getting smaller.
Hardly see any DH or freeride bikes out these days, apart from on my rare uplift days.
Agreed, as someone said above DH is becoming more like a prototype racing series, I would hope there would always be a grass roots DH racing scene, but you don't HAVE to own a DH bike to ride that sort of stuff now.
I sold my last one in 2011 I think, even then it had been mothballed for a while and took an age to get rid of.
It was a bit like an Elephant, big, heavy, expensive to buy and maintain, cool to own but when do you get to use it?
Saint and zee would largely do the same unless you can make them distinct somehow. 12 speed road blocks or new axle standards, that sort of thing.
I can imagine a Zee being relaunched as an Enduro groupset of SLX/XT with a tougher rear mech, it's not entirely needed (compared to SRAM) but would be a nice to have and probably help them claw back some OEM market share.
Leaving Saint to go down the 7-speed route for DH which does allow things like wider and symmetrical hub flanges. I can't see them developing 12speed Saint, there surely isn't a market for it beyond Enduroists who perhaps see them selves as above Zee.
The other gap in Shimano's lineup is an e-bike groupset like EX1, although how serious SRAM are about that I've no idea, an 8s cassette for XX1 money? I imagine E-bikers (of the Kenevo end of the scale) would happily run something like 8speed Saint with a 11-42 cassette.
The market is getting smaller.
Sorry, I'm not disagreeing with that, just saying I'm not sure that alone would be the driver, it would just dictate the price point was more niche. You're right much fewer about and sales are I'm sure way down. Was just suggesting I think it's got no USP anymore.
(unless they kill off the four pot xtr xt and so on and split it into an "XC" family on that side and enduro on the Saint zee side)
DH is an isn't getting smaller. At a local scale, unless you have an uplift there is certainly far less reason to own a DH bike however the popularity of the uplift services is testament to it still being a popular segment.
Agree SLX is the successor to LX (which was similarly afflicted by a lack of progress in its twilight years) and Zee to Hone. XTR has always had a presence in DH post-Saint for those who value weight over durability.
It's also worth noting that XT and SLX don't offer SS variants; Saint is effectively a beefed up road mech rather than a mountain mech.
Saint is effectively a beefed up road mech rather than a mountain mech.
Ah, a gravel group!
Not obsolete, no. Maybe the market is smaller but there'll always be those who like 10sp and see no reason to shift (arf!) over to 11 or 12 as long as nice 10sp stuff's still available because it works so nicely and lasts so long.
I don't think there's a need for more than 10 speed - but I'm surprised that the 7 speed dh stuff that other brands have doesn't use old-school 7 speed spacing - Imagine how reliable the shift would be!
it does look nice too, I accept that people want the 1x range that modern groupsets offer, but a <30 tooth ring is fairly gopping compared to a nice tight cassette and tiny mech
but a <30 tooth ring is fairly gopping
You've seen DH pyjamas I assume? I'm not sure nice plays into most people's concerns
Who remembers “Hone”
Remember it?
I'm still using a pair of hone cranks, which were just LX cranks painted a darker grey. Essentially 'Hone' was a bit of a precursor to Zee/SLX; mid-range Ruffty Tufftyish group borrowing a couple of features from Saint and most other parts from LX. Once LX became a touring group and SLX was established as the mainstream stepping stone between XT and Deore there really wasn't much point in Hone... Dare I say it, not all that different to Saint.
Whatever you think of shimano, the current product lines and their market "hierarchy" are pretty easy to follow.
Is there a boost Saint crank available? I'm probably wrong but I've not seen one.
Fitting a non boost crank on a boost frame usually works until you go to fit a chain device, which is fairly likely on the sort of bike with Saint cranks.
Saint always had an 83mm (or whatever the spacing standard is) option so, er, maybe? I must admit Super Boost is completely foreign to me.
Ah, a gravel group!
Huh. You know that's not as daft as it sounds. Do any road mechs have Shadow? It is in mountain ratios though so would have to be flat bar to work.
You can still buy the M820 Saint Crank, or the M825 (83mm BB spaced, not sure if that sort of makes it boost-able?) both have the benefit of still accepting 104 BCD chainrings, however they're stupidly expensive for what is essentially an 8 year old product especially when current SLX and even XT are about half the price, and both come in boost flavour (silly asymmetric bolt patterns aside)...
I can't really see why anyone needing a new crankset today would opt for Saint, it was an excellent product at the time but widespread use of Boost spacing on newer frames makes it obsolete, and it costs waaaaay more than the alternatives...
I can’t really see why anyone needing a new crankset today would opt for Saint
If they want reinforced cranks and want the HT2 system Vs SRAM or similar.
Aside Snapping a set of SLX cranks the HT2 is the most reliable system I've used.
Huh. You know that’s not as daft as it sounds. Do any road mechs have Shadow? It is in mountain ratios though so would have to be flat bar to work.
Yep ultegra and 105 now use shadow style mounting, there is a clutch ultegra mech, and then of course there is GRX which is a dedicated gravel group with a shadow+ mech 😉
Of course shimano deliberately made cable pull different for road and MTB beyond 10 speed, specifically to head of people mixing road and MTB parts.
Back when I had a DH bike I remember using a SS 105 (5600?) mech and 8 speed 11-25t road cassette because it was cheap, light and compact. I think you'd struggle to do the same today, maybe sora/Claris mechs with an alivio shifter? Lower spec parts though...
5lab
Membergiven its the cheap version of saint, surely zee is more like hone than slx?
WEll, depends on whether you view it on marketing or on hardware tbh. The SLX double crank was the closest successor to the Hone crank frinstance, despite being pitched differently. SLX was in marketing terms the LX successor but in practice was a mostly new groupset and closer to XT than anything else. And of course Zee was never really cheap Saint, it was a kitbash of Deore, SLX and some bits of old Saint pitched as a dh groupset, but not really very good at it. (the mech frinstance was literally an SLX with a 9-speed saint derived short cage on it and some random small parts of the new Saint- meaning that if you caught the cage, it'd put all the force straight into the weakest part and bend the crap out of the parallelogram)
I can’t really see why anyone needing a new crankset today would opt for Saint, it was an excellent product at the time but widespread use of Boost spacing on newer frames makes it obsolete, and it costs waaaaay more than the alternatives…
Not sure it does,
DH bikes already had wider chainsets, and there's a 83mm Saint option, which lines up with a 150mm (or 157mm) hub. The few that aren't tend to be asymetric or use unusual hubs to mimic the same chain line.
Northwind
(the mech frinstance was literally an SLX with a 9-speed saint derived short cage on it and some random small parts of the new Saint- meaning that if you caught the cage, it’d put all the force straight into the weakest part and bend the crap out of the parallelogram)
Yeah - only non-SRAM mech I've ever had just explode for no reason
Back when I had a DH bike I remember using a SS 105 (5600?) mech and 8 speed 11-25t road cassette because it was cheap, light and compact. I think you’d struggle to do the same today, maybe sora/Claris mechs with an alivio shifter? Lower spec parts though…
Yup, same. 105 SS is one of the toughest mechs I've ever run. Still have a Sora on my Shore.