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After my pro Shimano thread, how about listing some of shimano's failings and mistakes.
The alloy granny ring on my XT chainset (it was a few years ago) which was chewed up in after only few rides, I replaced it with an old steel one I had lying around which was only a few grams heavier and outlasted the crank arms.
Non serviceable disc brakes.
Cup and cone hubs, some love them though.
And the even more forgettable rim brake version.
Biopace
I'd say non serviceable disc brakes was probably a marketing decision not a design mistake.
My original rapid fire STIs disintegrated in fairly short order. There's also the flappy brake/ gear shifters: what were they called?
Never tried Duel control levers. I had a pal who had XT ones and loved them. Work well on the road bike though.
Did biopace ever work? I could see that climbing would be worse but the philosophy should work on the flat if in the right gear, shouldn't it?
Airlines
Rapid rise
Most of their groupset wheels of old.
Non serviceable disk brakes
But your not having cup and cone. Genius stuff - but those that can't service them don't like em. Beauty is if you can they go for ever for a few pence of grease.
I still have those Shimano MTB dual-control shifters one a few of my bikes, including XTR ones on my Epic and LX on my Enduro I think. I prefer them to the more normal shifters!
Drop bar gearing options were terrible for ages. No granny ring on a road chain line triple. GRX has at least in part resolved this
Their freehub/cassette spline interface. Granted they work fine if the freehub body is steel, but when aluminium is used then they end up badly damaged by the cassette.
Road brifters. Ergonomically not as good as the competition.
Their bonded together crank arms that fall apart.
Many of their components (freehubs, disc brakes, bridters etc.) that can't be serviced at home, with spares unavailable. I've used DT Swiss, Hope and Campagnolo for years; spares are available and can be serviced at home relatively easily.
Weak rear derailleur springs.
The Dual Control levers were flawed, fine for road use but as soon as you hit the rough stuff they're a handful, in the wrong way.
Airlines weren't a design mistake, they worked very well for what they were intended for. What they got wrong was the size of the market. How many people do you know who only ever do race runs but are happy to recharge the cylinder almost every run? Commercial mistake yes but not a design one.
The only one I can think of from recent times were the original release of their IceTech rotors. They seemingly got their temperature specs wrong and that led to quite a few instances of the aluminium core melting. Notice how the road releases all had fins and that they now recommend you run the finned pads with any laminate disc now.
Non serviceable disc brakes.
I can kinda see the logic though.
An SLX caliper is £25, a set of hope seals is £8. Not enough to really make Shimano any money on, not even enough that you could pay an LBS to swap them for you. Chuck the calliper in the recycling bin and fit a new one.
Spin it the other way and it's manufacturing brilliance that they can churn them out for that price.
Don't say it's bad for the environment, there's probably more embedded energy in your bottle of craft IPA.
The joining pin on chains.
Airlines weren’t a design mistake, they worked very well for what they were intended for.
Correct. Airlines was/is excellent for the intended purpose. Amazing shifting.
Granted they work fine if the freehub body is steel, but when aluminium is used then they end up badly damaged by the cassette.
Road brifters. Ergonomically not as good as the competition.
Shimano freehubs are steel, not their fault if others use cheese/ alu. I find their road STIs to be vastly superior to Campag and SRAM.
Spin it the other way and it’s manufacturing brilliance that they can churn them out for that price.
Yes, they're too cheap, as demonstrated by the fact they seem to fail so often.
Getting Deore, Dior and Deer mixed up.
Freehub on XT M788 hubs. I've had 3 fracture and disintegrate. Wheels were/are great, but freehubs are rubbish.
105 5700 shifters. Utter bobbins out of the box.
An SLX caliper is £25, a set of hope seals is £8. Not enough to really make Shimano any money on, not even enough that you could pay an LBS to swap them for you. Chuck the calliper in the recycling bin and fit a new one.
Based on a sample of having 8 bikes worth of hope between us..... Seals seem to last 15 years.
Our foray into Shimano xt and xt servo wave lasted less than a Year for both sets. So 25 quid *15 or 8 quid for a set of hope seals.
My XT free hub did the same. My 2 sets of deore freehubs are very tough though. I was told (can't remember who now) that it's because the XT hubs have more pawls that the deore ones that somehow means they're more prone not engaging properly which destroys the freehub.
105 5600 left shifter broke after about 18 months, I was too tight to replace it right away so just rode it in the big ring all the time. Eventually found a cheap Ultegra one which almost looked the same.
After doing a bit of research it seemed to be a common problem.
Now on 5800 and it has been very good, not impressed with how the inner ring tightens into the soft alloy outer ring though but can see that they did it to lose a few grams. Loctite is your friend here
Alloy pedal threads on chainsets, but strangely you get a much more robust steel thread on some lower groupsets. Only a problem if you change take your pedals off regularly and are a bit ham fisted. Or in a rush like me when putting my pedals back on after extracting my bike from my small ish boot in a trail centre carpark whilst my pals are waiting.
All my current Shimano kit works fine with one exception, the current Ultegra front mech (cable mech hydraulic STI shifter). It has more screws to adjust than any other I've seen and no combination will stop the mech rubbing on either big small or small big.
BR-RS505 brifter white plastic cable guide as gear cable passes through hoods section. Wears and eventually shears gear cable.
E8000 ebike motors torque sensor issues and it not being serviceable
Rapid rise
How very dare you. RR were the best mechs and I miss them. Much more intuitive.
They do have a daft idea about cable entry points on rear mechs at times, now more sorted but still not optimal.
And was this a mistake?
Lack of direct mount chainrings so limiting the smallest ring you can fit to 32t.
I like my Hope hub when riding on the canal path as it saves me needing a bell. I am intrigued though by the silent hub as it would make a sneaky early morning ride all the more stealthy.
Dual Control levers (flappy paddle) are amazing, I've still got a set on my MTB.
The design flaw was using them with rapid rise. Where they really excelled was using them with a regular rear mech.
Rapid rise
How very dare you. RR were the best mechs and I miss them. Much more intuitive.
+1. Still using them on my bar end shifter tourers. Means both shifters go the same way fr a low gear and the end of the shifter is pointing forward out of the way of kneed when climbing out the saddle in a low gear. Got two on the shelf for when the ones on my tourers wear out.
Freehub on XT M788 hubs. I’ve had 3 fracture and disintegrate. Wheels were/are great, but freehubs are rubbish.
Yup, me too. Cracked 2 in 3 months. Madison were struggling to get hold of them as well. Suspected I wasnt the only one with issues. 3rd replacement arrived , but found a replacement Easton hub and built the rim onto that instead.
Cup and cone are not great. Either they set up well or you end up with a hub with rattle or stiff. Glad to get rid of my micro adjust wheelset a month ago and gone sealed bearings.
But other than rubbish freehub cone sealing , my commuter bike deore hubs still go round , even if the freehub likes to make cracking and creaking noises on regularity and dont expect to get home or to work , but it does.
Still prefer Shimano over Sram.
XT brakes with the wandering bite point. Confused the hell out of me when it first happened.
Have Zee brakes now, which are great.
It's always bugged me that when Shimano things break, they're basically junk. Other manufacturers of similar components seem better at building in at least some repairability.
I'm not sure how much of that is a design fail, so much as a business decision though.
i-spec - need I say more?
Rapid Rise x2 - I've never found myself needing to block shift up the way. It was an evolutionary dead end.
Any freaks interested in swapping me something normal for my M760 GS? Honestly, I hate it so much, I must have had it for 10 years now and I still manage to to screw up block shifts.
The shifters around that time were pretty crap as well as I recall, both the 9sp kits I have from new are running SRAM Attacks (still use that model for the current X5) which, along with the nicer Rocket, they lost interest in after a while.
I have a wheel with a silent clutch on! Never tried it to see if it works or not.
Agree cup and cone are fine if you treat them well, bit of a bugger if the races get shot though.
Chain link pins went with the dodo, the smart kids used powerlinks regardless. Chainrings are now direct mount.
If I'm not mistaken, the non-compatibility of Tiagra 4600 components with other 11-speed Shimano drivetrain parts.
How were chain pins a design mistake?
They worked absolutely fine, the replacement is an improvement but thats progress not bad design?
Actually alot of this isn't bad design, its just design decisions.
Actually alot of this isn’t bad design, its just design decisions.
I was thinking exactly that. Airlines, Rapid Rise, the chain place pins, all functioned well and did what they were designed to do.
I’m not sure I can think of a single tyre design mistake.
Lunge.
Some would argue skinwall/tanwalls were a mistake....
They'd be wrong obviously they make any tyre better.
All my current Shimano kit works fine with one exception, the current Ultegra front mech (cable mech hydraulic STI shifter). It has more screws to adjust than any other I’ve seen and no combination will stop the mech rubbing on either big small or small big.
Same here, having used all sorts since 95 STX RC, Dual Control and Rapid Rise on an old Epic, the silent LX freewheel the only thing that has left me scratching my head was when they changed the front mech from 6800 to the current 7000, I can't stop the chain rubbing.
Still better than SRAM though....