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its the pinnacle now, find me better vfm cranks than SLX- I actually think thats why its been ditched, there was no reason to buy xt cranks when weight & performance are virtually identical to slx
I don't think there's any argument about that.
I just had a look and the cheapest M6100 chainset on google is £75. The cheapest M8100 is £75. There might be odd crank lengths or chainring sizes involved but I'm not sure that even the few quid extra for a different crank length justifies why people are upset that the 3rd option in between £75 and £75 has gone. The trouble for shimano is their cranks have always been such good value. GX is ~£150 online and tech wise is on a Deore level! I'm surprised they haven't made some effort to make XT a £200 crank to bridge the gap between £75 deore and £300 XTR, it'd make the whole groupset look even lighter as well (not that XT cranks aren't light already).
I reckon there will be a mechanical XT next year. They did this with 105 on the road, it was just more obvious because it was 12s as well. They put the R&D into 105-Di2 as a group set, then brought out the mechanical mechs and shifters 12months later. Someone said "won't someone please think of the poor product managers", they've got it far easier than their roadie colleagues, they ended up with 12 months of 11s 105 bikes they couldn't shift because everyone knew 12s was around the corner.
But it does exist. It’s not had a 2025 update.
Infact M8200 mechanical would be the simplest product development even for shimano, there's no front mech to do, update the logo on the shifter, it's just a new rear mech! In the meantime I would assume bikes might still come with mostly M8200 bits, apart form the shifter+mech?
Maybe electric single speed might be a better direction. Especially as I was cycling uphill behind a bloke on an ebike yesterday who was using one of the smallest cogs at the back and was moving only slightly faster than me on a bicycle.
From what I’ve read here the threat is from the market for complete bikes. Presumably most groupsets are sold as part of complete bikes? I can see the market polarising into the heavier Deore build vs the high end electronic shifting bike. If that’s what the market wants then why make high end mechanical groupsets?
I imagine a lot of this is driven by the market?
My thinking it's cheaper and stronger to build frames without holes in, then not have to feed cables through. Stuff like 1x was likely driven partly by that (remove front mech, save weight) but also because Shimano front shifting was very good, and SRAM likely decided to move the goalposts. SRAM is much better at marketing than Shimano.
I suspect xt will get an update at some point. Shimano weren’t going to anything alongside the wireless groupers to keep the focus on them. In the meantime I will try and think what could be improved. The only thing I can think of is to copy the little button on sram mechs that holds the pulley wheels away from the body when taking the wheel out. It’s no doubt subject to patent but I’m sure an alternative could be found
Electronic mechs are built to be much more protected from impacts than mechanical ones, with internal clutches/recovery etc. IME they're far less likely to be written off by an impact.
Add in UDH hangers which rotate back during an impact, and I'd wager that a UDH+Di2 mech is way more robust than a normal mechanical mech.
I’m a teacher. I can remember a student telling me that they were building a 1x bike in the 1990s. I’ve seen loads of bikes converted to 1x. We had kits with longer cages and larger sprockets . I’d say 1x is consumer driven.
Electronic shifting isn’t ledin that way. But I’d say that the typical buyer of a high end bike is looking to got electronic shifting. Not all but enough to sway it.
Add in UDH hangers which rotate back during an impact, and I'd wager that a UDH+Di2 mech is way more robust than a normal mechanical mech.
I wouldn't disagree. You only have to look at a new transmission mech next to a 90s XT to see they're built to do very different things in a crash.
But then you have to do a likelihood x severity calculation.
I smack my £20 deore mech into a rock 100 times, it breaks 20 of them, the cost over several lifetimes of riding is ~£400.
I smack my Di2 mech into a rock 100 times, it breaks just once, it's cost me £400.
Judging by the state of my mech, it's hit a lot more than 5 rocks so I'm confident my 20/100 kill rate is probably overly pessimistic. Who wants to smack their £400 mech into a rock 100 times to see if that's equally valid?
My thinking it's cheaper and stronger to build frames without holes in, then not have to feed cables through.
It's one less step on the assembly line, which is great if it's a cost neutral swap (e.g. centerlock vs 6-bolt), doesn't really work in this case as it doesn't cost them hundreds of dollars to thread some cables.
I'm not convinced by the more holes = weaker argument, but that was done to death in it's own thread.
The R&D budget wouldn’t cover development of the new wireless and new mechanical at the same time, rather sensible really.
I’d suspect they are currently working on an update to the mechanical system, it’s not exactly their first rodeo.
Woah.. hold on. Trad wired XT is still available and there are no moves from Shimano to discontinue it, it will get a refresh in time.
There was both STX, and STX-RC which was slightly less poor quality.
Trad wired XT is still available and there are no moves from Shimano to discontinue it, it will get a refresh in time.
It would be really great if Shimano just came out and said you know what we think we've got this just as good as it ever needs to be so we are just going to keep on making it without changing it just as long as you are willing to buy it.
You only have to look at a new transmission mech next to a 90s XT to see they're built to do very different things in a crash.
I think transmission is less about surviving crashes and much more about avoiding slight bends in hangers - because 12 mechs are so long and cassettes are so big, the effect of any slight misalignment is multiplied. Was one of the first things I noticed with 12s, so easy to get it out of line. Transmission cured this problem, but it's a problem that 12 speed created.
"Time to move to Microshift."
I've only used one Microshift cassette but it was so soft that my patented "pedalling my ebike like it's my singlespeed" technique wrecked it in 200 miles...