It's a bit like someone posting a link to a website where you can download a leaked version of the next Girls Aloud album before it's been officially released
but you cannot download a bike component, so it's not the same at all, and, to the extent that people hold off buying things due to next year's changes, surely this is a relatively small effect, essentially engineered by the manufacturers themselves by their production scheduling, and only a delay in spending rather than actual reduced turnover ?
[edit] ooops on 2001 🙂
I don't think the 2001 product is under embargo now.
I presume they might argue that if the goods are not on general or press release that any images of them are copyright as the product itself is not in the public domain. I think there must be some busy media/legal guys at Shimano chasing internet threads over the world trying to put these images out.
I think there must be some busy media/legal guys at Shimano chasing internet threads over the world trying to put these images out.
fat chance of success...
it's not copyright they're worried about but delayed sales caused by their own scheduling
If the pics I've seen online are legit the new XTR does look bloomin lovely.
All this "embargo" and leaking pics stuff is surely just marketing really - helps to hype the product before release.
True Simon but this is a simple case of the industry looking after it's industry and possible themselves. What if Shimano got that pissed off at publishers who used these images that they decided to boycott them from previews and tests.
Media embargoes are commonplace on new products in all areas
just 'found' some piccys of XTR and X0, loooks sweeet 8)
Media embargoes are commonplace on new products in all areas
and your point is ? I think once the cat is out of the bag it can't be stuffed back in, and we all know there'll be new kit every year...
Yes, Simon that may be so but there seems little point in the media making the problem any worse. It may well be out on the internet and in the public domain but that doesn't mean the entire public has seen it. The cat can be in the bag or out of the bag but also at many points in between the two.
a quick google search will find it though!
if the cat is in the bag and you haven't opened the bag is it dead or alive
or both
😯
I think at the minute the cat is miaowing very loudly in protest after being let out and stuffed quickly back in said bag so many times in quick sucession, trying to draw attention to it's mistreatment!
🙂
oooo oooo I must rail aginst injustice
:fap fap fap:
exactly as I said, embargoes are commonplace, if I had anything else to add I would 😀and your point is ?
only need to say it once
It may well be out on the internet and in the public domain but that doesn't mean the entire public has seen it
so what they're saying is they'd rather people spent now and were upset when new spangly bits come out a bit later in the year and ideally bought again ?
This is all very theoretical to me, as I only buy bike parts when the old ones breaks and I have to have them [b]now[/b], though I'll admit to creep on cameras...
It's a bit like someone posting a link to a website where you can download a leaked version of the next Girls Aloud album before it's been officially released
More like someone posting an image of the cover of the next Girls Aloud album on the net before it's been officially released. An album that everyone knows is likely to come out next year and can guess roughly what it will sound like.
Schroedinger's Derailleur?
I'd actually come down on the side of the Barnes in this case. It's all very well saying that the images are copyright, but if people are only "leaking" them so that they can be discussed by people who will more than likely be buying some of said kit, surely that's fair dealing?
It seems to boil down to a mix of not giving the public enough credit, and the bike industry's retarded obsession with model years, and the idea that one year's stuff is - supposedly - an improvement on the last. 🙂
I'm concerned about the cat. Has anyone been feeding it whilst it's been in and out of the bag?
The new xtr, peeking out of the bag.
[IMG] 
[/IMG]
Really wish i had not posted it now, sorry Mark and everyone else at STW, i didnt think....
I'm mighty unimpressed as I can't find any images using Google...I'm feeling seriously let down by this whole affair...thank god I'm not needing to spend cash on new parts for the moment!
Trev, It's not your fault at all. You simply posted images that were on the web. The issue is an industry one - we are part of the industry, as are all mags and websites that earn part of their revenue from the industry. It is certainly not the fault of anyone who simply found pictures and reposted them. That's the internet. That's how it works and the industry has to work around it.... somehow.
Its like when Frankies Relax got banned, everyone wanted gay sex all of a sudden.
not sure that i'm with you on that one scruff
Some special agent you are Dick! I found 'em in a jiffy.
That said it helps if you search the web as opposed to images.
Must say I like the look of it. Guess thats partly why Madison are doing deals on them at the moment?
Shimano own the pics and if they tell ST to remove them from their website then they legally have to.
I've just googled 2011 xtr and the cranks seem to be lovely. I still think I'll end up using roadie stuff as it's much cheaper, so only the shifters needed. Oh, and a Middleburn-made set of chainrings.
lol @ CaptainFlashheart
I just googled it and came up with a picture of [i]my[/i] '98 XTR Pace RC200 - Weird
What a load of PR ballcocks! I'm with SFB on this one - add to that I'm still using a '95 vintage XTR 8sp rear mech (in proper XTR grey, none of this black and silver rubbish) on a 9-speed XT setup demonstrates you don't always need the latest and greatest...
you cant be sur off the state to the cat. Unless you kick the cat.
LOL gay sex.
cum, again?
Who owns the images?
Who has the right to tell any one using those images to stop using them?
We don't use images in the mag or on the site without permission.
If images are posted on the forum and the owner of the images asks us to remove them as they were posted without permission then we remove them. We always have done. There are many members of this forum who have made that request and we have complied with it.
It's really that simple.
We are not like The Sun. We don't sneak images of bike products and rush it to the web when the owners of the images don't want us to. It's just bikes! We aren't going to reveal conspiracies or save lives by posting leaked images. It won't even sell extra copies of the mag! So, just hang on a few weeks and we'll have the information and loads more pictures. That's the way it works.
Who has the right to tell any one using those images to stop using them?
Not wishing to be petty, but surely the website HOSTING the image is the one that's using it? All images posted are only hotlinked from a host site aren't they?
can you post links to the images?
Its an interesting discussion
The thought that crossed my mind is that the motorcycle mags are always trying to sneek peek, first glimpse pictures of new bikes, MCN is always doing it. I'm not an industry insider but from the outside they seem to do well from it. Surely the cycling media is there to provide information that people want to know about because then they will sell it and advertising space around it.
Its obvious that people are googling the images and ending up at sites that have the info. Surely this is what journalism is, finding out stuff and then telling people about it
Its all good hype this though, the marketing guys and shimano must be smiling into they coffee mugs
All images posted are only hotlinked from a host site aren't they?
good point 🙂
[i]Surely this is what journalism is, finding out stuff and then telling people about it[/i]
This is not a slur on Singletrack, but I don't think the magazine, or indeed many hobby magazines, can be described as doing "journalism" in this way. They "find out stuff" because they are told by PR and marketing people, and they write it down. If they're a bit sceptical about something they'll render it as "Spesh claim a 114% increase in torsional rigidity" rather than "this delivers a 114% increase in torsional rigidity", but writing a hobby magazine for bike enthusiasts is not really an exercise in uncovering truth.
That being the case (and it isn't a problem really) I'm content for them to play by whatever rules they need to play by to get the magazine and website the information they need in the future. The biggest component maker around can presumably affect whether they ahve anything interesting to write much more reliably by choking off their information than they can by searching for new and unauthorised sources.
And when all's said and done, nothing turns on it. 🙂
The thought that crossed my mind is that the motorcycle mags are always trying to sneek peek, first glimpse pictures of new bikes, MCN is always doing it. I'm not an industry insider but from the outside they seem to do well from it. Surely the cycling media is there to provide information that people want to know about because then they will sell it and advertising space around it.
But the pics we're talking about were taken by Shimano, not ST or a freelancer.
Bicycle mags do sometimes carry prototype pix from bike races though.
But the pics we're talking about were taken by Shimano, not ST or a freelancer.Bicycle mags do sometimes carry prototype pix from bike races though
I can see that. What would the sketch be if someone took photos of the photos, who owns the image then.
At the end of the day if shimano have let images get onto the internet that they didn't want in the public domain then more fool them. By putting the 'statement' up as a sticky on the top of the forum stw have actually increased the hype about them. I wouldn't be posting here if the sticky hadn't raised my curiosity and now I'll go looking for the picture even though there will be little of interest in them for me tbh, its just made me curious.
Either someone in a PR department somewhere is being a bit dim or quite clever. I wonder which
Well, I didn't care until I saw the word 'embargo' at which point I googled shimanio 2011 leak and clicked on the first link. Then I remembered I didn't care again.
So, just hang on a few weeks and we'll have the information and loads more pictures. That's the way it works.
Hang on a minute! Is this not still mid January 2010? It gets earlier every year 🙄
It gets earlier every year
Too true!
I think the bike industry needs to break away from this "release year" obsession. I don't think it really does much, to be honest, apart from leaving shops with "old" stock that they have to reduce.
Change the product cycles to deliver the new products as and when they are ready, then roll them out as and when they are required/wanted. Surely that could be done?
Would I be allowed to post a link to a site where someone has posted a link to pics of the groupset? How many 'links to' would be acceptable?
Well, I didn't care until I saw the word 'embargo' at which point I googled shimanio 2011 leak and clicked on the first link. Then I remembered I didn't care again.
Hahaha. I did the same.
iggs - Still their copyright I'm afraid, photographing is just a means of reproduction.
i've just seen a photo! are shimano going to come and poke my eyes out as they now have had an impression of the new set? yikes, i better wear some goggles!
😉
I don't know if this has been mentioned already but under the pictures of the XTR groupset on Weight Weenies there's a chart with new Shimano product codes. If the chart isn't a wind up then XTR, XT and SLX are going 10 speed next year.
I just did the same. All I saw was an xtr chainset that looks exactly like the current one but hidden in a safe. Did I miss something?
Hot-linking is a tricky legal issue. It's been tested in courts and the result was pretty much that if you enable it to be displayed on your website then you are considered in law to have published it. Doesn't matter if it's hotlinked.. that's just a technicality. Until last the end of 2008 our servers were sited in the US. But our company is UK based. All our images were being served from a US computer and yet if we were to be brought up on a legal case regarding publication of any images there's no way we'd be able to claim the images were not published in the UK. Just an example of how the internet is rather global when legal frameworks are not.
When it comes down to it the law is pretty straightforward. If it appears on our website then we are considered to have published it. That's why when one of you says something defamatory about someone else their legal people will threaten us unless we take it down.
So, hotlinked or not.. any images will be removed because if we don't WE will be deemed to have published them.
so contrariwise, if someone posts a link to a site hosting the pics then you've not published them ?
Onzadog - Member
I just did the same. All I saw was an xtr chainset that looks exactly like the current one but hidden in a safe. Did I miss something?
Yes.
Bit lower down the google page, the one with the shiney cranks.
I guess they want to promote the product only when it's actually available to maximise sales. Also it's a poker game with SRAM - neither wants to show their hand early.
Simon, yes, that would be the legal case. However, that's not something we are ever going to try and put to Shimano in a sticking up two fingers kind of way, followed up with a bit of an embarrassed shuffling of feet when we ask why we haven't got any priority media samples of their groupsets when all the other mags and websites have theirs.
So... don;t try and be smart about this. If you want to discuss Shimano 2011 and look at leaked pictures then by all means do it on your own website. We'd rather you didn't do it here.
So... don;t try and be smart about this. If you want to discuss Shimano 2011 and look at leaked pictures then by all means do it on your own website. We'd rather you didn't do it here.
you mistake me, I have no interest whatever in new groupsets - I'm running a square taper chainset & BB that cost me £33 complete when new 🙂 What I care about is pointless censorship. Are you saying we shouldn't even discuss the concept on here - if so, you really ARE in hock to the manufacturers and have voided your journalistic integrity 🙁
[b]FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT![/b]
😉
FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!
I wouldn't so characterise it. Mark has a big stick and I only have a big no(i)se 🙂
you really ARE in hock to the manufacturers and have voided your journalistic integrity
God I hope that's not the case. It'll be sponsored 'control' tyres next.
Are you saying we shouldn't even discuss the concept on here
What are we doing now?
If I say no isn't that a bit like the monty python sketch where the blokes asks if this is the place for an argument? 🙂
And it's only pointless censorship if there are no consequences.
What are we doing now?
ah, that's OK then, I thought you were warning me off!
If I say no isn't that a bit like the monty python sketch where the blokes asks if this is the place for an argument?
Nirvana ?
And it's only pointless censorship if there are no consequences.
the consequences you described sounded like a storm in a thimble
What I care about is pointless censorship. Are you saying we shouldn't even discuss the concept on here - if so, you really ARE in hock to the manufacturers and have voided your journalistic integrity
It's just like watching The Wire. A shameful day for journalism everywhere eh? 😆
you really ARE in hock to the manufacturers and have voided your journalistic integrity
Good grief! How do you think it works?
Do you think a company would send us product to review if we deliberately broke an embargo that they had set? Do you think they'd invite us to product launches if we tried to scoop the world with some blurry pictures from some dodgy leaked source? How would that keep us in a position to be able to test the latest kit as soon as it is available?
This is the bike industry. We are a bike mag. We rely on the industry to provide us with product to test for you guys as much as they rely on us to provide them publicity by publishing those tests. We aren't in an industry full of life threatening conspiracies that we must out and reveal in some detailed expose. It's a really nice industry that makes bikes for us all to ride and enjoy. The industry makes cool stuff.. We test it and write about it. The stuff that's good gets good publicity and you the readers get to learn about the latest kit and then you chose to buy it or not. That's the way it all works. There are no conspiracies or coverups or back handers to journalists in brown envelopes... It's just people making bikes.. people writing about them... people buying them.. That's it!
There's secret stuff and embargoes because it's a competitive market. Companies compete to stay in business.. that competition helps drive development of better products. Part of the competition is only releasing information on new products when the manufacturer is ready to release it. magazines that try and bugger that up by pre-releasing information die because the magazines exist because of the support not only of the readers but of the industry they are part of.
Magazines that bullshit the readers with backhander fed reviews also die as readers can easily bias as many many of them are just as enthusiastic about riding bikes as the writers are.
The whole thing works for everyone from readers to manufacturers when everyone works together. Shimano are not ready to release the information on their new products yet.... and Singletrack will respect that, because the people behind those products are good people trying to develop the best product they can. At the end of the day, after all the debate about marketing, and unnecessary product launches year after year, the reason you are riding nine speed, carbon fibre, full suspension bikes that are stronger and lighter than the bikes we rode ten years ago is because that system works.
I'm off fro a curry now.. My rant has delayed me setting off to pick it up. It's going to be ready in 15 minutes and it's half an hour away. My girlfriend placed the order 20 minutes ago. I'm going to be in trouble now when I turn up with a cold bag of curry... and it's all cos you made me rant 🙂
The interesting thing surely is that by putting that sticky up at the top of the forum, Mark is practically inviting you to use google and find the pics yourself (tempted at this point to post a tinyurl link to lmgtfy with the relevant terms, but don't want to push my luck!) See he's not that much different from us - just that he has valid reasons not to upset people in big companies who effectively make the rules on stuff like this.
Well how late do you think Shimano can leave it to show the bits to companies to put on their 2011 model year bikes? Given they need time to decide the spec., get production in place, sell their product to dealers etc. there's not an insignificant lead time there.Hang on a minute! Is this not still mid January 2010? It gets earlier every year
There are no conspiracies or coverups or back handers to journalists in brown envelopes
Well you would say that wouldn't you 😈
<whisper>what kind of curry have you got?</whisper>
How do you think it works?
that's a very passive stance - isn't your position to represent our needs? If you kowtow to the manufacturers you abandon your independence and become their lickspittle creature. I couldn't care less about the industry's latest hornschwoggle, I'm more interested in what works and lasts and is affordable to most riders. XT = extra-overpriced tat, XTR = extra extra overpriced tat
The industry makes cool stuff.
and isn't that for kiddies ? I want to ride a bike, week in, week out, year in, year out. I only look at it when it needs fixing ie much oftener than I'd like. It's just a me-powered vehicle.
There are no conspiracies or coverups or back handers to journalists in brown envelopes
I wasn't suggesting or even thinking that - it was far more blatant "we have to toe the line or we get sidelined" - straightforward qui pro quo.
Well how late do you think Shimano can leave it to show the bits to companies to put on their 2011 model year bikes? Given they need time to decide the spec., get production in place, sell their product to dealers etc. there's not an insignificant lead time there.
This isn't about making the companies aware, shimano are upset that some pics leaked out before the full public press release in a few weeks time (according to Mark).
anyway, he's off for his curry, somebody get the pics out then hide them again in about an hour 😉
anyone have an idea of prices yet?
the reason you are riding nine speed, carbon fibre, full suspension bikes that are stronger and lighter than the bikes we rode ten years ago is because that system works
nine speed = at least 2 ratios more than justified, and not my choice but availability
carbon = expensive, ally will do thanks
full suss = too much trouble
I wasn't suggesting or even thinking that - it was far more blatant "we have to toe the line or we get sidelined"
So what are you suggesting they do exactly? Honestly, it's not as if there is a single person out there who [i]needs[/i] to see the pics, so why does it matter? This is a new level of preciousness.
anyone have an idea of prices yet?
Bound to be pretty cheap I imagine.
It's going to be ready in 15 minutes and it's half an hour away
now can we argue about sustainable eating ?
Honestly, it's not as if there is a single person out there who needs to see the pics, so why does it matter? This is a new level of preciousness.
I'm saying it's fair enough that ST doesn't post the pics intentionally, but to stifle discussion as "If you want to discuss Shimano 2011 and look at leaked pictures" seemed to suggest is another matter. I've already said I don't care about the pics, and it's acceptable for the moderators to control bad manners and so forth on the forum, but extending that to preventing debate on bike related matters in the hope of minor favours from manufacturers looks like a step too far...
An hour round trip to get a curry? Better be good!
💡 Maybe shimano are buying him the curry.
think you've flogged this dead horse back to life Barnes
well done
What tyres for 2011 XTR?
How was the curry Mark?