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where's that scienceofficer?
What your mate needs are mechanical disc brakes. No boiling.
For the love of god, two pages and no one has posted a graph yet?
On another note, how is Pilau?
Lovely.
Much better than plain basmati IMO.
The way I explain it to the kids is that the front brake is for power and the rear brake is for control and you don't really want to use either on its own as power without control will put you off the trail and control without power will put you into the nearest tree. As a simple explanation to a group of inexperienced riders, this is a really clear message that most can understand.
Now if only they could reliably remember which lever is which... 😉
Did a few days of big mountain rides in the Highlands with a partially working back brake this year.
Could still go flat out most places, until it got steep and/or loose when the front locking up and washing out became a constant issue.
Learning to ride around it gave me more of an understanding of how I usually use the brakes intuitively.
Tell to stop braking, the massive pussy!
(Pila's best when you get off the brakes and let it fly.... 😉
It's clear that many of the people commenting don't ever ride very steep, dry and rocky terrain. Braking balance always depends on the terrain you're riding on. If I would blindly follow some of the 80% front 20% rear advice, I'd probably be left with no teeth by now. Generalising on this theme is pointless without talking specific conditions/situations.
Just back from verbier. Terrain is mainly steep and loose so front braking is reduced meaning the rear is constantly being dragged.
My guides struggled. I did run them with shimano rotors last year and they were miles better. Centerline rotor is pants.
All of the guides were running saints with 203's all round.
What 'themanfromthealps' said. How you break depends on your situation - I thought everybody knew that?
Down steep stuff it's the back break gets used more, and in other situations it's both if you need to stop quickly, or else it's balancing both to stop either wheel from skidding and losing traction.
I'm just a rookie, too. 😉
Pila is steep in places but mostly just fast and very, very dusty.
Down steep stuff it's the back break gets used more, and in other situations it's both if you need to stop quickly, or else it's balancing both to stop either wheel from skidding and losing traction.
I disagree with this. Your individual assesment of available traction (and thus your skills and experience) is what dictates how you brake. Ground conditions and gradient merely feed into this.
Yes, I'm happy to lean on the front to control speed where I know I can.
Really use both, but the consequence of locking the rear is low compared with the front, so there is a bit of logic in using the rear predominantly. This should really depend on what you're tackling though. For this reason I've found both brakes get pretty hot on steep descents.
If he's boiling just his rear brake with codes on, he should use the front more - and/or give them a bleed with fresh fluid (DOT can absorb moisture and then boils at a lower temperature) - and/or switch away from sintered pads.
Look at the traction circle and make sure you understand it. It contains all the answers to the OP's question...
Haha. If you're the guy on the solid not surprised your brakes are cooked. How flipping fast were you yesterday.
''I disagree with this. Your individual assesment of available traction (and thus your skills and experience) is what dictates how you brake. Ground conditions and gradient merely feed into this.''
In a neutrally friendly way, what does the above mean, scienceofficer?
If you ride in certain conditions enough, you start to get a feel for when to release the a break to stop the wheel from slipping (usually from having an 'oops' moment), & if you have 'helpful tyres' they'll let you know what's about to happen. By balancing both breaks, I find it's possible to not rely on either wheel to the degree that it slips and causes a skid, I remember one time I didn't do this - my front wheel washed out and I injured myself as my leg got tucked under my bike.
I genuinely don't understand what is meant by what you've written re conditions feeding in, but the above is what I mean in talking about balancing both breaks to maintain traction - through the breaking effect being less on each wheel, meaning they don't slide. It especially applies when cycling in the snow and crusty ice/snow which you create a groove through as you cycle, I think, or on mossy and slippery surfaces.
Regards 🙂
I use the front brake a lot when it isn't going to cause the front wheel to slip or stall.
When it's steep or loose or rocky or twisty the opportunities to use the front brake are reduced in power and/or frequency but I still try to see the spots where the front can help out the rear brake, especially as the rear brake is even worse at slowing you down in these situations (but much less likely to dump you on the ground!)
n a neutrally friendly way, what does the above mean, scienceofficer?
If you read the SRAM link he gave its really informative but a quick précis...
Perhaps its easier to explain in the extreme ?
Pro's use the front brake more predominantly ... however 2-3 seconds is gold to off the podium. (In other words washing out or OTB are just occupational hazards of the last second or so of time)
If you need to make up 2 seconds and its worth hospitalisation or dropping off the podium altogether to do it then use the front heavily all the time.
If you are 5+ seconds up on the last corner this can turn out to be a bad idea though... as recently demonstrated but also as frequently seen where the pro's wash out in XC through DH.
For them a race run is all or nothing... if they take it cautiously they will be way off the back... (or someone previously unbeatable might just scrape 5th place to use a different example (e.g. Raechel post FW) ) not necessarily about front/rear brakes but more the difference between some caution and willing to risk everything)
Taking away the extreme.... always being front end heavy is risky and likely to lead to far more crashes and washouts... the pro's do this all the time so unless you think you can teach Nino or Rachel a few tricks ??? but I'd also say the pro's just build it in and find it hard not to... so even when they don't need to risk it they do???
I had a similar discussion with a mate, we don't race or do any crazy stuff but he seemed to think the rear brake was used more.
I agree it's all about what your doing at that instant that dictates brake bias, but all things being equal your center of gravity moves forward under braking so it's the front that does most of the work generally, braking on an unweighted rear wheel is not going to do much to slow you down.
Just look at cars, the front wheel brake set up is usually 'bigger and better' than that of the rear wheel.
A lot of normal cars have disks up front and drums out back.
Those with disks all round generally have a smaller disk set-up at the back.
Really fancy cars have active brake systems that will bias individual wheels for more or less brake power.
I'm pretty sure that's not just a gimmick.
In a neutrally friendly way, what does the above mean, scienceofficer?
In a neutrally friendly way, I cant really elaborate further without wittering a little bit, but what the hell, my works server is down.
My point is that systemising how you brake into series of logic gate style decisions is not going to serve very well because there are too many variables. How to brake effectively is a skill that you learn. The more you do it, in varied conditions, the better you will be at it.
Notionally, gradient has got nothing to do with how you should brake [i]per se[/i], but it effects your weight distribution, which affects your grip through increasing ground pressure, but there's only so much grip you can get from the ground and that's dictated by conditions (and tyre). As the rider, you make the decisions about what you can get away with.
Take an off camber clay descent in the dry.
Lovely grip. Because of that you can brake pretty heavily with the front, but you still have to be mindful that you're off camber.
Take the same clay descent and parch it for the summer and make it heavily trafficked. The gradient is the same, the camber too, but its now covered in dust and loose material. You have to be mindful that the dust and loose is going to reduce how much grip the wheels have because if you apply the same braking 'rule' as before, you'll probably be on your ass.
Now ride it in the winter when its like glass, and your prospects of successfully braking on the same off-camber gradient is fairly negligible because the ground is slippery and gives way readily under your tyres - your traction is now poor. You should have been preparing your speed in advance so that you don't have do do much except feather the brakes a little. In this instance if you applied 'the rules' you'd just carry on in a straight line down the hill until you hit something.
According to the 'rules' discussed on this thread, brake application would be the same in all three examples.
Who does that in reality? No one.
If you wanted to break it down to a noob, I'd be saying both brakes because it shares the load - power from the front, control from the back, but that's a massive oversimplification for anything other than smooth and simple trails.
Northwind - Member
For the OP, you could tell him I was doing full top-bottom nonstop runs at Pila on 2011 Formula The Ones with a 180 rear and never even a trace of brake fade
but...what do you weigh and what impact do you think this may have on brake fade?
According to the 'rules' discussed on this thread, brake application would be the same in all three examples.Who does that in reality? No one.
Not in detail but in general/overall I think the Pro's do.... (especially DH but even on XC)
Obviously the detail is how much but I also think they are at a level where you take the risk or lose or take the risk and may lose and they carry that into training as well.
Of course if you want to beat a top WC DH racer you need to take risks ... that's the name of the game at their level... but if you want to come back from holiday without medical attention losing 1-2 secs on a corner or two is well worth it 😀
I'd say applying what are correct braking "General Rules" for the Pro's at WC level is simply not correct for the majority....
I completely agree with the details (every instance is different)... I'm just pointing out there is a level above each bend/approach that applies as well.
Really interesting in the SRAM article is the suggestion most of us would benefit from symmetrical rotors front to back... which would obviously benefit the OP's friend in heat dissipation. (If indeed the OP hasn't taken the advice to get a different friend instead)
As I'm sure we are aware DH is a great showcase for manufacturers who want us to go and buy the same make and parts as the Pro's.... In this case we as consumers are it seems also following "the Pro's do it his way therefore it is THE way" ...
Now I just need to go and sell my brand new 29er DH bike.... 😈
Your mate needs to learn to ride a bike. Braking is a subconscious thing
^this
I've been reading this thread, thinking 'I haven't got a clue which brakes I use'. That's not because I don't know how to brake, it just comes naturally dependant on circumstance. I can't remember being on a ride and having to think about which level to pull and how hard
Not in detail but in general/overall I think the Pro's do.... (especially DH but even on XC)Obviously the detail is how much but I also think they are at a level where you take the risk or lose or take the risk and may lose and they carry that into training as well.
Think about it for a second, this can't be true. Essentially you're saying that racers don't read the terrain?
The fastest guys and girls are fastest not because they don't brake, thinking death or glory! at every turn but because they're incredibly skilled about reading the terrain (and the condition of the terrain is in) picking the best line for grip and speed, being able to react very quickly when things start to get out of shape, and going absolutely as fast as the grip allows in a corner, but no faster. And when they need to slow down, to brake as late and as hard as possible to make the corner, but no later and no harder than the grip allows.
Essentially, doing everything everyone who's trying to go fast on a bike is trying to do, but much, much better. No difference in intent or basic thought process, they're just doing it a great deal better, and a great deal quicker.
Your mate needs to learn to ride a bike. Braking is a subconscious thing
^thisI've been reading this thread, thinking 'I haven't got a clue which brakes I use'. That's not because I don't know how to brake, it just comes naturally dependant on circumstance. I can't remember being on a ride and having to think about which level to pull and how hard
this^ (that, top) again
I bet most people would be surprised if they were presented with their actual braking force data. The stuff about using mostly the back brake on very steep, loose descents can't be right. I'm absolutely certain that they're concentrating very hard on not locking the front and being gentle with the lever, but when it's that steep, most of your weight's on the front, and there just isn't enough weight on the back wheel for it to be able to slow the bike much.
I bet most people would be surprised if they were presented with their actual braking force data. The stuff about using mostly the back brake on very steep, loose descents can't be right. I'm absolutely certain that they're concentrating very hard on not locking the front and being gentle with the lever, but when it's that steep, most of your weight's on the front, and there just isn't enough weight on the back wheel for it to be able to slow the bike much.
Not all steep stuff is the same - on straightish steep stuff, I'd agree, but on steep, techy stuff with lots of corners, a la Golfie etc, then the front brake is not your friend.
nbitf - I was thing of corners particularly.
I find it affects my cornering too much, I'd only use the front brake coming into a corner to wipe off speed, never on the corner, unless I've either made an arse of it, or I'm hanging.
But on loose, steep descents, it doesn't matter how much you try to get you weight back, the rear brake simply won't slow you up much before skidding.
Both brakes evenly for slowing down and the back brake for holding a steady speed is the way I "think" I do it.
I use more rear than front. Always have. It's not like a motorbike on the road/track - you cant always tell what grip the front has so if i'm unsure i use the rear. As far as i can tell there's nothing wrong with me and if i can't ride a bike i'd probably be aware of it by now 😀
Through utter laziness, i recent undertook a braking experiment by running my brakes euro style (new brake set for the RocketMax). Spent a few gentle rides getting use to it then threw myself down a pretty hairy DH trail in far from ideal conditions. Got about 2 years worth of crashing in one run by instinctively dabbing the front instead of the rear. Mostly comedy crashes but interesting all the same. I spent over a decade running just a rear on the right on a bmx so thought i would all come flooding back...Adjusting your braking is harder than you think.
Those 80% front guys should try it - you use your rear much more than you think
I find it affects my cornering too much, I'd only use the front brake coming into a corner to wipe off speed, never on the corner, unless I've either made an arse of it, or I'm hanging.
This highlights how difficult this conversation is!
When people talk about "alps" and "very steep, rocky corners", that makes me think of staircase steep stuff, arse over the back, when you're on the brakes to stop accelerating very quickly to life threatening speeds.
There's as many ways to brake as there are corners and straights. multiplied by the types of dirt, and then by types of weather.
There's as many ways to brake as there are corners and straights. multiplied by the types of dirt, and then by types of weather.
Aye, so many variables, agreed.
I think the answer comes down to which one of you binned it into the tree? 😈
Interesting video: Especially since he keeps locking up the rear tyre
I dont think I ever apply the front without the rear at the same time , when pressing on. I will often use the rear without the front. I definatley use rear pads more, a lot of the time I dont wont the forks more compressed if possible.
I do get wooden rear feel more often & I think its time to upsize my rear disc. I will often take the rear to the point of under rotation & then the front does the rest.
Its the way I like it.
I think the answer comes down to which one of you binned it into the tree
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That'd be me, ran out of rear brake 150 m from the end of the freebie section after a top to bottom 6 mile Dh ( mainly red or black occasionally) run loosing 1800 vertical meters. I'd add that the pads have been in all week, and weren't new at the start of the holiday. Shows you how quick it goes wrong when theres no rear brake to keep things in check. This is a relatively tame section.
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The pads. Rotor isn't much better.
I guess I use my rear brake more than the 30% I thought originally,
Update, mate got Zees, no more boiling, mineral oil see. Smashed his rear wheel spokes instead though. Not in the tree, that was me,
Those 80% front guys should try it - you use your rear much more than you think
Ah, but they can't try it because that's not what the Pro's do.....
As has been adequately expressed on this thread anyone not applying FULL front or nothing is a hopeless amateur who should be defended in real life....
I guess I use my rear brake more than the 30% I thought originally,
Glad you're OK and didn't follow the advice to get a new friend
😀
Update, mate got Zees, no more boiling, mineral oil see
So how did he know his brakes were boiling, out of interest?
The thread may have had less silly posts if only those who have been braking on a super fast 5 mile descent were commenting. Glad the bike survived it looks done in on that picture.
This article had an interesting comment on the SRAM Guides (near the bottom).
[url= https://www.pinkbike.com/news/whyte-s-150-carbon-rs-review.html ]PinkBike Whyte S-150 article[/url]
SRAM Guide RS Brakes:
I'm a fan of Guide brakes, but Pemberton's steep, extended downhills ran the levers down to the grips on two occasions. My guess is that the master cylinder's fluid recharge port requires a full lever release to allow the brake pump fluid into the lines to make up for pad wear and such. Instead of modulating the lever pressure on long DH runs, I had to completely release the levers occasionally to keep the levers pumped up.