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Shopping for a new road bike recently, it's amazing how many £3-4k bikes have average kit on them, and then you seem to pay another £2-3k for the frame to be "hi-mod" and to get a nice set of wheels.
Mug tax I presume.
Orange!
I guess it's working for them but I'd like to see them a bit more accessible again.
To be fair, the frames are deceptively sophisticated in terms of both construction and weight/speed - so in functional terms I think they are comparable to a lot of carbon bikes.
But the full builds have always taken the piss a bit and I've heard the frame prices are still heading north.
as long as the golden goose keeps laying those golden eggs.....
It's to make the cheaper stuff look better value while hyping up the value of the brand.
If the s works is £10,000 the entry carbon with the same geometry looks great value at £2,500.
The finance also looks amazing. I could have that for £10,000 or something similar for £300 a month.
See my mate who bought an Audi S4. His justification was I almost bought an RS4, so the S4 was sensible. (Waves at Mark if he's reading)
2018 RS4- £61,000
2020 S4-£48,000
2020 A4- £30,000
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect#Branding
Its the same as me buying a Omega when I was 20. How much did I know about watches? How many 90's bond films had I watched with significant product placement?
Regarding the S-Works stuff, I would guess they sell a couple at full RRP and most of the rest at mates rates / sponsorship deals, then discounted to the public at year end.
As above, definitely a "halo" product with a bit of "aspirational" pricing. Two terms I ****ing hate.
I've never understood why some road bikes are so expensive.
A mountain bike often has multiple complex suspension components. Complex frames involving bearings and pivots, hydraulic brakes and seatposts.
A road bike is a rigid hardtail with fancy bars. A top end road bike can be a lovely thing, but its inherently less complex than a mountain bike.
Perhaps it's partially because sponsorship of the road side of the sport is much more costly?
Mostly probably just what the market will bear though.
Regarding the S-Works stuff, I would guess they sell a couple at full RRP
I'm willing to bet your money that Spesh probably sell a metric shit tonne* of S-works bikes every year, and I'll also place a side bet on them being their most profitable range.
*although it's probably an Imperial shit ton, what with them being from 'merica...natch
I’ve never understood why some road bikes are so expensive.
So much this. And not just that they are so expensive, that it's so hard to tell the difference. I get noticeable benefits from more expensive components on a mountain bike - they're not just a little bit lighter and better finished, they usually genuinely work better when it comes to forks, shocks, brakes (even if it's the ability to get the lever and bite point where you want it), wheels, even grips. A relatively unskilled rider can have more fun and comfort on a better bike.
Road bikes not so much - I've ridden some expensive road bikes and really didn't notice any significant difference for the sort of casual riding I do and I find it hard to believe that even racing at an amateur level theres a lot of benefit.
Can't remember what it was but an ad popped up the other day for an £8k hardtail.
I can't imagine spending that much on a bike with no bounce and a short travel fork.
Guess I'm not a race whippet though.
https://www.specializedconceptstore.co.uk/product/11727/2018-enduro-pro-29-6fattie/
https://www.specializedconceptstore.co.uk/product/13799/2019-s-works-enduro-29/
https://www.specializedconceptstore.co.uk/product/11739/2018-s-works-enduro-29-6fattie/
The discounting at end of year at specialized does question the markup and how overpriced the bike industry is. There is a race to the top for who can have the most expensive bike/component.
https://www.ktm.com/gb/mx/450-sx-f-factory-edition/ >>>>>> £9250
https://www.specializedconceptstore.co.uk/product/15187/2020-s-works-venge-di2-sagan-collection-ltd/ >>>>>> £10250
So much this. And not just that they are so expensive, that it’s so hard to tell the difference. I get noticeable benefits from more expensive components on a mountain bike – they’re not just a little bit lighter and better finished, they usually genuinely work better when it comes to forks, shocks, brakes (even if it’s the ability to get the lever and bite point where you want it), wheels, even grips. A relatively unskilled rider can have more fun and comfort on a better bike.
Road bikes not so much – I’ve ridden some expensive road bikes and really didn’t notice any significant difference for the sort of casual riding I do and I find it hard to believe that even racing at an amateur level theres a lot of benefit.
This.
Well I've not ridden tons of road bikes, but my main one at the moment was a proper high-end frameset and it does have a certain je ne sais quoi - being feathery light, super-responsive and with a sense of life.
Cheaper carbon bikes have just felt a bit duller. Like the difference between double butted 4130 MTBs and triple or quad-butted fancier alloys.
But the premium attached for those higher modulous carbon layups is almost insulting. Even if the material were twice the price (I don't expect it is), the labour involved is the bigger cost and that must be very similar.
https://www.specializedconceptstore.co.uk/product/15187/2020-s-works-venge-di2-sagan-collection-ltd/ >>>>>> £10250
Yep that Specialized road bike looks expensive but just look at what it can do:
It’s time to start chasing your own rainbows with the Sagan Collection.
Our quest for the perfect tube shapes didn’t start in the Win Tunne, but with a new piece of technology, the FreeFoil Shape Library. Our engineers wrote an optimization algorithm and utilized a supercomputer to help create new airfoil shapes with different weights, surface areas, and structural targets. Armed with this library of shapes, we could plug them into the different parts of the bike and test a variety of configurations to determine the fastest setup in the Win Tunnel.
While the Rider-First Engineered™ tubes greatly contribute to the reduction in weight, they also generate a higher a higher stiffness-to-weight ratio and provide 40% more compliance than the ViAS—no matter the frame. And we can't forget the 32mm-wide tire clearance for further compliance.
Not only did we make the Venge more aero than the ViAS, but we also took 460 grams out of the module weight. This means we saved 240g in the frame, 25g in the fork, 107g in the cockpit, 25g in the seatpost, and 63g in small parts—making it the fastest option when you need to go up, down, and all around.
The new cockpit, developed in partnership with our World Tour teams, features a stem with a higher stiffness than anything we’ve ever tested, new bars that are faster, lighter, stiffer, and feature a textured pattern on the tops for extra grip and control.
Compared to the fastest aero road bike to date (the Venge ViAS), and many others in the space that we won't name here, the new Venge is eight seconds faster over 40km at zero degrees of yaw.
Well I'm about to find out if super bike level road frames make any difference. I've got one on the way next week hopefully, granted it's not built with a top tier gruppo but I reckon 8000 series Ultegra Di2 will do 😉
As for mountain bikes, I've got new XTR 12 speed on my bike along with fox fork and shock that are next in line to the kashima coated stuff and its ace, better than the previous gen XTR that's on my other one, and considerably better than lower spec stuff.
Remember the expensive tech trickles down the range over the years so it's actually good news
I've had quite a few "posh" bikes. But i've never paid list for them. Just wait for the sales when there's a newer model planned and swoop in.
Comparing carbon layups is very counter intuitive in terms of the resulting properties versus what your eyes will tell you. Gross generalisations aside - having held small test sections of a major brands carbon layup in my hands to compare standard vs high modulus its very surprising that a high modulus section of only about a third physical volume can be massively stiffer and stronger than the standard layup - giving a good example of the differences in tensile modulus and strength, they look almost identical from the surface though. Multiplied throughout the frame structure these higher modulus sections certainly make a big difference to the amount of material required to hit the target stiffnesses. What your'e really getting in terms of modulus when the bike industry says 'high' modulus is very vague, and covers a broad range of possibilities. In something like an Sworks the frame has small sections around key zones of some of the highest modulus fibres you'll see in bike applications, as well as being an overall higher spec fibre, this is what you're paying for. The advanced processes in refining the raw fibres to achieve higher modulus fabrics are a lot more costly as far as I'm aware, it wouldn't surprise me if a sheet of ultra high fibre was 10x that of standard, the highest modulus currently technically possible for rare applications even more than that.
Cheaper carbon bikes have just felt a bit duller.
You might be right but the actual differences in speed are minimal ime. Some bikes feel faster but dont seem to be any faster. Its like when I swap from 30mm slicks to 25mm tyres, it feels much faster but in actual times you struggle to notice a difference.
My other love is guitars - that's a much more mature market than bikes. You can slice it up any way you like, but there are broadly 3 categories.
1) Entry level guitars. Sub £300. These are mostly fine these days but the fit/finish is just 'OK' and they might not have all the features.
2) Mid range - I guess the £350 - 800 sort of level. These are great guitars.
3) Top tier - Gibson USA / custom or Fender Custom Shop, PRS, whatever.
Most manufacturers have the same model in each of these tiers. Very few people could tell the difference between the top and mid-tiers (sound, feel) in a blindfolded test. But what is well understood is that if people want to buy a £2k Les Paul Standard, they aren't going to walk out of the shop with a £400 Epiphone. It's a bit crazy but well-recognised.
Getting back to bikes:
Custom Shop == S-Works. They're not models for your average rider to aspire to. They're models for people who have the means and want to spend more. It just takes a shift in perspective for all of us who have grown around bikes where the top tier is vaguely attainable. We just have to be satisfied that £3k now gets you a very good bike. It just doesn't say Fender USA on the headstock.
Can't believe no one has mentioned Jones yet.
In fact there are loads of gravel 'rigs' (as they call them) on bikepacking.com which are lovely to look at but not that innovative and comedy priced:
https://bikepacking.com/bikes/corvid-cycles-map/ $7k for a rigid with XT anyone?
And don't get me started on the bags
https://bikepacking.com/gear/jones-truss-fork-pack/ ........$250 for a pair!
If a new mountain bike costs more than a new motorbike then it's a no from me.
Always wanted a Santa Cruz, but even the cheapest seems massively overpriced when you compare it against a Canyon or YT (other bikes are available) so you do have to wonder just how much of it is badge-willy-waving.
The comparison I see out in the real, non-cycling, world is the upshot of people buying Mercedes. All of a sudden they're everywhere, it's all about getting that badge.
Compared to the fastest aero road bike to date (the Venge ViAS), and many others in the space that we won’t name here, the new Venge is eight seconds faster over 40km at zero degrees of yaw.
So providing I stay upright all the way I can get to work approx 6 seconds quicker.....
That'll save me about 23.5 minutes a year on the commute - Where do I sign??
On a serious note though, I think anything over £2.5 is pushing it.
I understand the costs of say the Hope, Orange and Atherton bikes - all hand made by smaller companies in a country with higher overheads than those of the mass producers.
Always wanted a Santa Cruz, but even the cheapest seems massively overpriced when you compare it against a Canyon or YT (other bikes are available) so you do have to wonder just how much of it is badge-willy-waving.
Not if you wait for the sales. I'd written off the idea of a SC due to cost but last year picked up a rather blingy hightower (not the new model) for 35% off from Stiff. Patience is key.
Salsa Cutthroat full build, lovely looking versitile bike, but that price!
Road bikes (and mtb for that matter) are not just the sum of their parts. Companies like Specialized and Giant make HUGE investments in R&D. Then theres marketing, distribution costs, 1500 employees to pay, premises to keep, sponsorship deals to pay for. To be honest I am surprised they can produce bikes as good as they do for the price.
Check out Specialized R&D centre, things like this cost millions to setup.
You might be right but the actual differences in speed are minimal ime.
I'd agree to an extent, I can't get near some of the Strava times I set on my first roadbike, a Boardman Team Carbon with Ksyrium wheels.
But on real hills there's a clear and consistent advantage with my best bike.
Still, the feeling is at least as important as the reality, eh?
Still, the feeling is at least as important as the reality, eh?
Absolutely. A Ferrari can only legally travel at the same speed as a ford KA on the open roads but its still nicer to drive.
Agreed the cost is bonkers. It's the main reason I'm still riding a 26" Cotic Bfe. I want to go back to a full suss but massively put off the price of new.
No bike is expensive, but that's because I'm filthy rich.
so you do have to wonder just how much of it is badge-willy-waving.
Haven't Santa Cruz got their own factory making their frames, so I imagine a large amount of the difference in price is probably down to that. If you're not sharing the production line with 5-6 other manufacturers, it's bound to bump up the cost a bit, I'd have thought.
inflation adjusted £1k in 2020 money you Would see a huge leap in value and capability of the humble ride.
I don't know how true that is, Giant VT2, Specialized Pitch, Cannondale Prophet, all were ~£900 on the shop floor. Ok inflation makes them a bit more but still in the same ballpark as bikes like the Bossnut and other bargains.
New bikes are generally better, but comparing to their contemporaries there's been decent ~£1k FS bikes for a good long while.
If you then did a graph of the price of the average highest priced bike in the range of say the top 6 selling brands adjusted for inflation over the same time period you would see it is possible to spend a hell of a lot more now than it was in years past.
Again, there's always been ludicrously expensive bikes from Specialized / Scott / Trek. And if they were too cheep, there was always Moots, Dean, etc making titanium frames you needed a 2nd mortgage to own. Same with components, Di2 is expensive, but so was Shimano's sojourn into Carbon chainsets.
Agreed the cost is bonkers. It’s the main reason I’m still riding a 26″ Cotic Bfe. I want to go back to a full suss but massively put off the price of new.
I think the Mag's are as much to blame for this as anyone.
Review after review of £3k bikes, with criticisms make you think that the point of diminishing returns must be around that surely because the £2900 bike is criticized for having an aluminium bar rather than carbon on the £3000 one.
When the reality is if they stuck a £1100 bike with Deore in there and asked is anything 3x better, the answer would be no, against the clock I'd be surprised if even a £3k bike from the same range was measurably/significantly faster than the £1k model.
But on real hills there’s a clear and consistent advantage with my best bike.
Still, the feeling is at least as important as the reality, eh?
How much is it that you try harder on your best bike? Like I said my carbon fibre used ebay bike feels sooooooo much quicker than my gravel bike with slicks or my old Defy and it is lighter and stiffer but in reality the difference in times are minimal.
Not if you wait for the sales. I’d written off the idea of a SC due to cost but last year picked up a rather blingy hightower (not the new model) for 35% off from Stiff. Patience is key.
Now that Santa Cruz change the colours every year, you don't even need to be that patient. Also depends if you're prepared to put a bit of effort in, and/or how finicky you are about component choices, as there are often deals to be had on frames. I'm also on a last years' Hightower, bought as a frame and swapped most of the (admittedly reasonably new) components off a frame I'd bought and didn't really get on with...
I think i read a while ago that prices aren't just worked out on cost plus a certain margin, they are actually spread out to create a range of prices. So the lower end bikes hardly make any money, the mid-range is where the bulk of the profit comes & the top end have massive margins on just to spread things out a bit & create exclusivity & aspiration. Which goes some way to explaining how s-works bikes can end up with £3k discounts at the end of the year.
As an aside, i think lot of people are buying these expensive bikes over a few years on R2W.
My dad bought an s-works levo (£10K) on cyclescheme & the net cost over 3 years is about £6.5k as he's on 40% tax. Still a lot but certainly not £10k.
As an aside, i think lot of people are buying these expensive bikes over a few years on R2W.
My dad bought an s-works levo (£10K) on cyclescheme & the net cost over 3 years is about £6.5k as he’s on 40% tax. Still a lot but certainly not £10k.
Good to see the government stepping up for those truly in need.
Just thinking about this, top tier stuff is just expensive, end of. It may offer very little discernible performance advantage, but if you can afford it without putting undue stress on you finances, who gives a flying you know what.
How much is it that you try harder on your best bike?
Not really. When I swapped to a similar-specced bike that I didn't realise had a cheaper carbon layup, I couldn't work out why I was slower for ages.
Lighter, stiffer bikes are just quicker up hills.
I agree, some makes are very expensive though if you amortize the cost of it over a number of years and then factor in the amount of fun you get from it and the fact that the top end companies guarantee the frame for ages (even the bearings if you have a 'Cruz) then the cost is mimimal.... I am still on a Tallboy thats over 10 years old now and we have been on so many adventures together.
Once you have one seriously overpriced bike , you won't go back to a second hand clunker.
Once you have one seriously overpriced bike , you won’t go back to a second hand clunker.
I can confirm this statement.
Good to see the government stepping up for those truly in need.
Arguably C2W is more about health and the environment. People who pay 40% tax and buy £10k bikes are probably the sort of people who would otherwise be driving a big German status symbols.
I do wish they would just get rid of VAT on bikes though and make it fair for everyone, or even subsidize bikes like they do electric cars.
Once you have one seriously overpriced bike , you won’t go back to a second hand clunker.
I've demo'd a load of nice road bikes over the years as I'm always thinking of replacing my ageing CAAD4 "next year". Never have though, because a few grames, unscuffed paintwork and some aero shapes still don't really make a worthwhile difference for ~£3k over a 16 year old bike I paid £300 for (then upgraded everything so it's now DA, carbon cranks, light wheels, fast tyres, nice finishing kit etc).
Same with MTB's, as long as it's good enough then beyond a point it just feels better, but doesn't actually get better. A bad suspension tune will make you crash, so it has to be good enough. But a £300 carbon fiber front wheel to reduce unsprung mass won't actually make you any faster.
Superficial
Member1) Entry level guitars. Sub £300. These are mostly fine these days but the fit/finish is just ‘OK’ and they might not have all the features.
2) Mid range – I guess the £350 – 800 sort of level. These are great guitars.
3) Top tier – Gibson USA / custom or Fender Custom Shop, PRS, whatever.
4) Silver series squier off ebay with new electronics 😉
Colnago framesets look slightly overpriced on paper, since you can pay 5,500 (or a notch below) just for the frame, fork, headset and seatpost. That’s for the C64 at full whack in fancy colours. There are some deals around though.
16 year old bike I paid £300 for
Not even a bike with Di2 makes you feel it’s worth the upgrade? Or have you not tried that. What 16 year old gears are you on....