[Closed] Seeing damage being done by riders

It's not really about biking (although needless skidding is annoying). There is a conflict between leisure-use and conservation. Any land that is popular with visitors (walking, biking, riding) will experience erosion pressure on the trails. How much depends of terrain/soil type and its popularity. At some point, bits of the trail network start to look ugly.

A couple of points:

* Trails make up a small proportion of the land, but it's the bit YOU see. Butterflies, ponies, badgers etc, don't see the uglyness.

* Historically, in many NPs, significant erosion caused by walkers has been addressed by selective routing, repairs and armoring (varying quality).

Erosion on the Mendip, around Black Down, is becoming an issue - a victim of its popularity with all types of trail user, and a lack of bridleways outwith. I put it to the rangers that they should agree a programme of trail repairs on the worst affected segments. They already track these, but so far have not undertaken repairs. I suggested that local bikers like myself would make time to provide some labour if it were requested - to put something back.

Let's not beat ourselves up for enjoying our sport. Let's do some positive to conserve the trails we enjoy.

Trails are there to be ridden, life's too short. Too much twaddle being talked about mending trails. Little bit of erosion? Just natures way of improving the trail.

Pawsy_Bear - Member

Little bit of erosion? Just natures way of improving the trail.

Er, except a lot of the time it doesn't improve it. Just from a pure self interest point of view, making trails less fun to ride is a bad idea.

Can we insist on walkers leaving their Vibram soled boots & walking poles in the car park as well, both of these cause erosion.

WLT is a great example of erosion, but I challenge anyone to show me the correct line marked on the local council's definitive map. If you try and stay down the middle eventually a soggy patch of peat will swollow your wheel whole.

I'd have settled for a Jelly baby Chris!

joat- so go on the hard bits

One cannot live a happy life wracked with guilt. If there is a problem lets help fix it.

Pook- that IS what I do, I was trying to illustrate the point that however careful one is, BWs like this will offer multiple lines and inevitably widen. When riding at speed, which is what we all like to do, it is hard to calculate what is best for the trail in terms of long term durability. We are all guilty of damage by virtue of the fact we ride there. We can however negate some of the damage by riding lightly, e.g. not locking up or washing out existing puddles.

100!

Little bit of erosion? Just natures way of improving the trail.

joat - fair enough

from 14hrs ago on page 1

mansonsoul - Member
Maybe access rights for cyclists should be opened up to reduce the concentration of riders on the trails, spreading the erosion out, thus reducing it?

The cut throat bridge to whinstone lee tor is a very good example of this problem - no complete alternative parallel to A57 - bridleways in S Yorks that are (not really) punishable by big fines when you cross into Derbyshire - too many cafes, carparks, guidebooks, mags and not a lot of places to go

my vote is all CROW land open access for non motorised, eroded tracks get the path remedial treatment and just use them to access other stuff and hope they get washed out if you want them to be fun

Open access is the key I think.

Make a bike a "natural accompaniment"... job done.

missingfrontallobe - Member

Can we insist on walkers leaving their Vibram soled boots & walking poles in the car park as well, both of these cause erosion.

No but you can hope they'll remain on existing paths rather than widening them, cutting corners etc. Ask a national park ranger about walkers and horseists and they'll say the exact same things we're saying about cyclists- responsible access, accept that some erosion is inevitable but seek to reduce it.

Also you can insist they don't skid.

I am completely against all path wideners. Not sure why if you've gone mountain biking you'd avoid general trail features? Giant bogs and glacial ice flows yes, but rooty bits, puddles, slabs, drops and rocks???

In bad weather it can appear unsightly and in sensitive environments it risks access for all. But like all environmental harm most folks don't give a hoot as long as they get their slice of the pie, or are just unaware of the consequences of their actions.

If motorcycles get banned from everywhere I suppose mtbs will be the next worst thing and then we'll get a roasting!

I saw pook ride round a puddle this weekend. Obviously not in the peak, it's far too [i]precious[/i] to him. 😛

Maybe a percentage of the population should be sold into slavery and banned from MTBing. Another section could be sent to Australia and futher remnant to canada.

The test for selection should be based on your mtbiking ability with a special emphasise placed on your ability to ride the trail with out causing erosion.

Those who insisted on doing though stupid skids should be immediately executed and thoose who cause the least damage while still managing to be "Rad" should be raised to the level of gods and worshiped as such.

Would this help fix the problems ?

It's all a matter of aesthetics, yes eroded wide paths are ugly, but they serve a purpose, getting from A to B . The impact on the real environment is negligible, a lot of middle class do gooders with to much time on there hands whinging, how about adressing the real issues such as global warming, over population and dwindling resources!?? how do you like them apples middle England, besides riding bycycles in the glopp just ain't fun, so be responsible and try to cause less damage.

Personally I think Buzzlight years answer above is the only sensible one really and I agree with fergal.

I think alot of the differences in opinion come from differences in opinion of what the problem is. Also there are differences in the terrain we all ride. I think we need to state what we think is the problem before we all give our answers.

Where : I ride in South/Midlands in forested areas where I know the vegetation can grow back fairly quickly.

What I think is the problem :
1. The fact that MTBing allows people to cover a much larger area than they just can walking so they have a greater effect on biodiversity and "wild" life.
2. The possibility that building trails cuts across wildlife channels, limiting the movement of certain species.
3. Destruction of brambles (I have definitely been guilty of this) which small animals love.
4. Destruction of animal habit by building in "bomb hole type areas"
Often Rabbits/Badger etc love to build sets in these bomb hole type areas but they are also great for MTBing.

What I dont think problem for nature/overall :
1. The trail looking a mess/becoming a bog
2. The trails getting sanitised
3. Trails widening
(I dont think these "eyesores really effect the wildlife")

What I do think is a problem for the people who put time into building trails and then have to spend time fixing these issue :
1. The trail looking a mess/becoming a bog
2. Trails widening

As you can see the last two sections are contradictory. Frankly If I were to skid all the way round swinley destroying and widening the trails I dont think it would be much of a problem for the countryside. (But I appreciate it would be for the people who put the time into building/maintaining the trails)

Where as when I've gone riding on my own late in the evening or esp. night riding and I've encountered badgers/deers etc.. and scared and startled them (although I appreciate the wildlife/nature) I'm probably doing more damage than riding recklessly during the day. The badger or whatever will now not want to cross that path and it will reduce the genetic diversity of the species or whatever.

If someone said every MTBer in the southeast could only ride in swinley forest, we'd totally destroy swinley but it would actually be better for wildlife/the countryside overall as all the other areas would be quite.

Obviously Im not saying we do that. Im saying the real problem is what the overall number of MTBers is having on the countryside as a whole. Not whether BKB is now boring to ride because some people ride in a straight line or whether one of the tracks at swinely is now as wide as a road.

To be honest going MTB in the countryside is selfish as is building roads houses killing an animal for food etc

scu98rkr, well thought out, calm and measured responses are not welcome on STW dammit.

BAN PEOPLE FROM NATURE!!!!

This thread has just the same issues as the one on biking over the Cairngorm. Upland areas do not "heal" well and peat is not so good for riding over in the wet. Up on the border ridge in Northumberland they laid a load of slabs and it is so much better than how it was when I first started biking.

The only problem is that bridleways are turned into big tracks when they are "fixed". I don't mind the repairs done to Cuttgate though.

Yeah Geda, footpaths have just become stone highways so the smug middle classes don't have to get dirty, up on Windy Gyle at the weekend on those very slabs, Usway burn still a peach.

"so far have not undertaken repairs."

Mendip Development: Some new signs on the main trail over Black Down to the trig - no horses or bikes - enforcing that this very established trail is not actually a bridleway. I can't see anyone paying any attention though.

Also, a lot of material in bags up at the trig point, and it looks like the trig itself has been paved, so maybe repairs are now underway?

So am I a bad person when I follow some deer runs through Cannock Chase?

Your a bad person when you breath in air that could be used by some other living thing never mind going MTB

thats the spirit scu!!

cheers ! really pleased I've got it at last 🙂

Buzz, The AONB recently failed to get lottery grant funding for repairs on the basis that Blackdown is privately owned.

Therefore, its pretty unlikely we're going to see any substantive repairs any time in the short to mid term.

The trig is actually sited on an ancient barrow that has seen substantial erosion as visitors gain the high ground, so they've stone pitched it to prevent further damage to the archeology.

According to the AONB/Blackdown Advisory Group minutes, the signage is to help people stay to legitimate rights of way and out of ecologically sensitive areas and protect vulnerale areas of the ancient monument (of which, the [i]entire blackdown area [/i]is one) How they think this is going to do anything other than concentrate use and increase erosion in those areas I'm not sure.

Theres a reference to discouraging events that aren't in keeping with the use of the Mendips too, so looking forward, there may be a stern disapproving approach to mtb trails I'd guess. 🙄

fergal - Member

a lot of middle class do gooders with to much time on there hands whinging, how about adressing the real issues such as global warming, over population and dwindling resources!?

If I could address those issues just by not riding like a cock, I would. But that approach seems to be limited to not wrecking trails.

The bit most folk conveniently forget/ignore in discussions such as this, is the fact that their cars cause far more environmental damage with their polluting exhaust fumes (not to mention all the oil and stuff spilled on roads that ends up in streams and rivers and that) than a few mounting bikes do to a trail in theLakes or wherever. I just think it's funny when people who've driven there to go for a ride/walk bang on about 'erosion', but fail to mention the scarring of the landscape and the damage to nature the roads they use to get to such places causes. Utterly hypocritical.

[img] [/img]

Get the picture? So stop whinging about a little bit of 'erosion' on a path or trail, cos look what you've caused.

Yes, you. With your 'need' to own a car. That's your fault, that is.

Next time you see a child with asthma or respiratory problems, that's also your fault.

I don't own a car, so I'm off to burn some tyres to get my quota of planet damaging rights that I'm entitled to...

I'm afraid I'm sometimes a ride around rider. There were many areas hit hard by wet weather over the winter this year andt he chalky/gloopy main parts of the tracks have just been horrendous to ride through so you end up going around. I don't like seeing badly corroded trails but if they get so bad they should be maintained or closed until better weather - designated dependant.

Elfin - do you live near Winchester?

No. Never have done, probbly never will do. Nice town though, fantastic cathedral. Went there once with WCA and his family. Was very cold and wet. It was once the capital of England, you know?

[img] [/img]

I've bin riding in Epping Forest for years now. Seen trails change course cos of boggy bits, and new stuff grow from the bits people went round. Nature adapts, and regenerates. The trails can get more wiggly because of this, and more fun. The Forest doesn't suffer in the long run at all.

The dirty great roads running through it mess things up though. 🙁

Taff - Member

I don't like seeing badly corroded trails but if they get so bad they should be maintained or closed until better weather - designated dependant.

Or perhaps riders could just ride in a responsible manner and take responsibility for their own actions rather than stating it someone else problem while making it worse

Or perhaps riders could just ride in a responsible manner and take responsibility for their own actions

Again again; you're going on about minimal damage, compared with catastrophic damage cause by people's selfishness with the 'need' to drive everywhere.

The trails will survive. Nature will repair itself. The 'damage' cause by heel and hoof and bike tyre is insignificant compared with that caused by car and vayn and lorry. Come on.

What's the worst that can happen if people go round instead of through a few puddles, or rocky bits? Seriously? Come on... 🙄

Feel free to post up pics of erosion caused by walkers, horses or bikers that's comparable to that scarring above...

Elfinsafety - Member

The bit most folk conveniently forget/ignore in discussions such as this, is the fact that their cars cause far more environmental damage with their polluting exhaust fumes (not to mention all the oil and stuff spilled on roads that ends up in streams and rivers and that) than a few mounting bikes do to a trail in theLakes or wherever.

Not at all- it's 2 seperate issues. Or should we say "Well I drove here causing pollution so I might as well rip the arse out of the trail?" Lets drop a load of litter while we're at it, and do some tagging, after all it's a drop in the ocean compared to building a road. 😕

Not at all- it's 2 seperate issues.

No it's not. It's all the same issue. It's just convenient to separate things to hide yer own hypocrisy.

You know I'm right, too.

Poor troll tbh. Usually you're quite good...

Nature adapts, and regenerates. The trails can get more wiggly because of this, and more fun. The Forest doesn't suffer in the long run at all

this bit +1 (its discussing forests instead of where the OP is talking about but i still agree with it)

I'm afraid I'm sometimes a ride around rider. There were many areas hit hard by wet weather over the winter this year andt he chalky/gloopy main parts of the tracks have just been horrendous to ride through so you end up going around. I don't like seeing badly corroded trails but if they get so bad they should be

I've bin riding in Epping Forest for years now. Seen trails change course cos of boggy bits, and new stuff grow from the bits people went round. Nature adapts, and regenerates. The trails can get more wiggly because of this, and more fun. The Forest doesn't suffer in the long run at all.

This is where people are talking at cross purposes. Tandem Jemery you ride in Scotland the conditions and speed of regeneration are tottally different from the south.

I ride in the chilterns quite often and can totally see where both taff/elfnsaftey are coming from. Its not like if you ride through the centre of the puddle/mud you'll hit hard ground you'll just hit more sticky sticky mud (normally where the horses have churned it up over centuries) and come to a stop.

Every year its the same and every summer the clay/chalk ground will set hard in summer.

How do you get to Epping Forest Fred ? Quite a ride there and back isn't it ?

This is the sort of thing Im on about at least. In the winter it just churns up no matter what you do. In the summer it will bake hard and be nicely ridable.

[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/pimpmasterjazz/503592098/ ]click here[/url]

and I think this is meant to be the same bridleway in the dry, at least I would nt be surprised if it is.
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/pimpmasterjazz/2628905026/ ]clickable[/url]

Yes, you. With your 'need' to own a car. That's your fault, that is.

Next time you see a child with asthma or respiratory problems, that's also your fault.

I don't own a car,

Yeah Elfin, you tell them from your mud hut built in the middle of no where on your PC/laptop you've made from trees that have blown over (don't want to have to cut one down) and stones that have been washed onto the shore by waves over hundreds of years, powered by your own mini wind turbine or human powered battery. What it must be like to be able to say i'll ride my bike where i like, make my own paths and sod the countryside, i don't own a car so i'll get my moneys worth by possibly screwing up access to land for others by my selfish actions.

fantastic cathedral

Grow up. We have evolved and are now in a position where we should try and look after what we have so that it'll last just that little bit longer. I'd like to think my kids will be able to ride tha paths i have rather than just showing them photos.

Skiprat, u need to get a life matey boy! Erosions always happened, always will wether it be man made or not, why all the ****in do goodies think that its wrong! We were put on this earth to use it, an elfansafety got a good point! If yer that bothered about saving the earth think about REAL problems such as pollution! Bet u would'nt stop driving yer car would ya?