[Closed] Scotland & free university education..

Even better- NI students who have an Eire passport don't pay fees, AND still qualify for student loans!! Brilliant!
Does this go the other way too ??

It is farcical on the face of it - The UK's structure as a country will always create these anomalies though with the current state of devolved governments. Throw in the Ireland / NI divide and it starts to look like a bit of a cluster.

Can anyone in NI get an Irish passport then?

So excluding the NI/Eire passport issue.. Why would Scotland offer free Uni education to any EU citizen except the English/Welsh/NIrish? Seems a little prejudiced.

I don't think it's anything to do with prejudice in this instance - Scotland is just bound by EU law on movement of labour / students like everyone else. [This in respect to taking on students from another country on the same terms as their own students].
Wrt English students then they have to discriminate somehow IMO - the fee differential between England / Scotland would create a queue miles long up the M6 of English students trying to get in to Scottish universities - it would be unsustainable.

Just because they can apply doesn't mean they get it.

Why would Scotland offer free Uni education to any EU citizen except the English/Welsh/NIrish? Seems a little prejudiced.

As far as I'm aware that was never the intention. It is the EU rules that means that different fees rules cannot be applied to people from other member states, however these EU rules do not apply within a single country wich for the purposes of the EU is what the UK is. It is not something that Scottish government is happy with and I think they are looking to find a way round it.

When (if) Scotland votes to become independent, then English students will also benefit from free Scottish university education, the same as the rest of Europe.

'Scottish' students still need to borrow money from the student loans company - to cover rent, food, bills, etc.

this'll add up to something like £15k after 3 years.

so they'll make small monthly repayments in exactly the same way as every other student.

and just like all the 'English' students, the debt will probably be cancelled before it's paid off.

the scottish system is a clever gimick that favours high-earners.

it's really nothing to get excited about.

zero pounds versus 36 thousand pounds in fees is a clever gimmick? That would be an unusual use of the word gimmick ahwiles - they have made a fundamental statement that higher education should be free and available to all.

Shame if it puts English students off as there is a lot to be said for the Scottish system if two years of core plus other subjects, then two years for the masters. Ok first year absurdly easy for many, but second years can be really interesting, enjoyable and broad education before the final two of specialisation.

Actually Gary, they have been sensible in saying 9k per year (ie same quality) but capped at 27k (ie same cost) but I see your point.

Garry_Lager - Member
zero pounds versus 36 thousand pounds in fees is a clever gimmick? That would be an unusual use of the word gimmick ahwiles - they have made a fundamental statement that higher education should be free and available to all.

it's not 'zero' though, is it.

'Scottish' students will still need to borrow money (from the student loans co.) to pay for rent, food, bills, etc.

i estimate they'll end up borrowing £15ishK, they'd almost be daft not to. the repayments are very affordable, it's not a 'real' debt.

(you only pay if you're earning over £21k, try that one with your mortgage)

Scottish Graduates will still end up paying 10ish% of their salary over £21k per year, for many many years, probably 30.

it'll make no difference to most people.

it's a clever gimick, that favours high earners.

Why do you think it favours high earners?

zero pounds versus 36 thousand pounds in fees is a clever gimmick? That would be an unusual use of the word gimmick ahwiles - they have made a fundamental statement that higher education should be free and available to all.

Why do you think it favours high earners?

Take 6 gradueates, 3 scottish, 3 english, 2 each from high/medium/low career earnings.

Under the Scottish system all three students pay back £15k of loans + interest, the only difference is how quickly they pay it off.

Under the English system (lets say £40k in combined tuition and maintenance loans), the low earner pays off some of their loans (lets say ~£15k) over the 40 odd years before they're written off, he's no worse off than the Scottish student, but fels hard done by because it wasn't 'free' upfront even though they've never paid for it. The medium earner pays off the full ammount over the 40 years, the high earner pays it off even quicker.

So a low earner pays the same under both systems, it's the medium/high earners who pay off much, much, more under the English system.

When (if) Scotland votes to become independent, then English students will also benefit from free Scottish university education, the same as the rest of Europe.

my thought exactly. I need scottish independence in the next 3 years. Go Alex go...

my thought exactly. I need scottish independence in the next 3 years. Go Alex go...

But then they'd be free to drop out of the EU.

stevomcd - Member

Why do you think it favours high earners?

thisisnotaspoon has more or less covered it.

an average salary is about £27,000. the yearly repayments on this will be £600/year.

a typical Scottish debt will be something like £15k, that'll take 25 years to pay off assuming zero interest. in reality, it's very likely that an average earner will see the debt cancelled (30years) before they pay it off.

low and average earners will be no better off in Scotland.

high earners (£40k +) will be earning enough to make a dent, and they'll be better off in scotland as they have less to pay back.

the Scottish 'zero fees' system favours high earners.

the English system gets more money out of high earners.

i think the English system is better.

it's not 'zero' though, is it.

'Scottish' students will still need to borrow money (from the student loans co.) to pay for rent, food, bills, etc.

Errr, English students still have all that on top of their tuition fees... Higher cost of living too in many places.

Your high earner example is crap as well. You pay off 7% of your salary over 15k. So yes if you earn 20k for 40 years then you 'only' pay off 14k, but I can't see many graduates swallowing that as consolation for the fact they had to pay for their education.

If they earn £35k then they pay off the full amount, and are 25k out of pocket compared to their Scottish equivalent.

an average salary is about £27,000. the yearly repayments on this will be £600/year.

£840, no?

You pay off 7% of your salary over 15k.

your figures are out of date.

English students still have all that on top of their tuition fees... Higher cost of living too in many places.

monthly repayments are unaffected by the amount owed.

£840, no?

no.

27000-21000 = 6000

6000 x 0.1 = 600

I think there are some holes in your sums (mainly the assumption that earnings will remain the same over 30-odd years - even with inflationary rises alone, people will be earning double by that time).

But even with that aside, surely this is a flaw with the English system, not the Scottish one?

it's better, and that's a flaw?

(better, as it gets more money out of high earners)

I think there are some holes in your sums (mainly the assumption that earnings will remain the same over 30-odd years - even with inflationary rises alone, people will be earning double by that time).

the £21k threshold is index-linked, effectively cancelling out inflation.

[url= http://www.studentloanrepayment.co.uk/portal/page?_pageid=93,6678511&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL ]9% over £15,795[/url], so £1008 a year for your £27k earner...?

Edit: that's for pre-2012, which is why that was in my head, as that's me.

I still think you'd really really struggle to convince English students they're not being shafted compared to Scottish ones! But yes, just earn 20k for the rest of their lives and they're laughing...

ahh...

you're looking at the current numbers, not those affecting new students.

ie, those students affected by the £9k fees...

the '£9k fees' students will have a threshold of £21k

I still think you'd really really struggle to convince English students they're not being shafted compared to Scottish ones! But yes, just earn 20k for the rest of their lives and they're laughing..

That is just a hypothetical though as the current system is highly unlikely to stay in place IMO.

Are you saying Scottish Unis are substandard then?

English (and Welsh) students being shafted by their own government is the problem.
There is a solution, but it's not going to involve moaning about the Scots and the Irish.

it's better, and that's a flaw?

(better, as it gets more money out of high earners)

Flawed as it lets low earners not pay their debts? I'm sure someone's done the sums, but I'm not sure how you run a loan system where there's a "get-out-of-jail-free" clause?

Scottish system is "better" because everyone pays the same.

njee20 - Member

Are you saying Scottish Unis are substandard then?

Given the stature of the great Scottish universities - Edinburgh, Glasgow, Paisley, I don't think this will be allowed to happen.

Scottish system is "better" because everyone pays the same.

How is that "better", should we apply the same system to Tax? Say a flat rate of £7k whther your Donald Trump or Donald on the Dole?

The problem with a "free" system is those who don't go still pay higher taxes to fund it and feel shafted, unless they do too, so you end up with everyone in university.

The problem with the current system is the middle people get shafted as they still pay the whole debt off but don't benifit as much as the high earners. (The scottish system just sticks this threshold in a different palce allowing mroe "middle" people to benifit)

The problem with a graduate tax is it shafts the high earners who pay for the Tory party.

Scotland will not leave the EU if it becomes independent

Neing a small country will be tough. Be a small country out of the EU would be tougher. Is not Switzerland is it.....

How is that "better", should we apply the same system to Tax? Say a flat rate of £7k whther your Donald Trump or Donald on the Dole?

You get the same degree, you gain the same opportunities, you pay the same fees - only difference is that you pay them back less quickly if you earn more.

Personally, that seems fair to me.

Flat-rate for general taxation probably is "fair" too - the problem being that it would have to be set higher than most could afford, so the better off just have to suck it up.

If you could pay the state's bills with a flat tax-rate of £500pa, I doubt many would have a problem with that...

[img] [/img]

Either spammer or IT student.