[Closed] Save the Cairngorms from Singletrack

I think the clear consensus here is the plateau is the wrong place for mb's

The clear consensus is that there is no consensus.

😉 @ capt.john

at least you'll understand the cut of my post

From the N tional park website:

A very large area. The Park is 4528 sq kilometres in area, over twice the size the Lake District and Loch Lomond and the Trossachs.
A mountainous area. 5 of Scotland's 6 highest mountains are within the Park, there are 55 summits over 900 metres. 36% of the land area is over 800 metres and 2% is over 1000 metres.
An arctic wilderness. The land above 600 metres - known as the 'montane zone' - is the largest area of arctic mountain landscape in the British isles.

So, taking the bit above 800m, that is 1630 sq K. A path is say, 600mm wide, so 100 K of path take up an area of 0.06 sq K.

Assuming MTBers stick to established paths (does anybody [i]really[/i] ride up tto the top of Carn ban mhor then bomb back down over the heather??) the area affected by their manic skidding is so minute it is really a non issue imo.

Still, I do agree that publicising it in a mag with such a wide circulation does wind up some people so it's maybe not the best idea.

Sanny I enjoyed the article, I could read it and think that it sounds interesting but like other places needs some respect. As the Messiah said it looks like a fair bit of working it out for yourself to get there and you might get crucified by the weather/midges.

I could enjoy the article vicariously as living a few miles north of the south coast the Alps are closer than the Cairngorms.

Assuming MTBers stick to established paths

'established paths' become established motorways with heavy traffic, one of the advantages of Scotland's access laws is that open access causes a reduction in the development of massive 'highway' footpaths like those evident in more populous and restricted areas. the means of erosion control necessary on very popular routes are very expensive.

I'm not sure any of that would apply on Cairngorm though, as has been said it's unlikely it'll end up with a massive increase in traffic.

geoffj - Member

"I think the clear consensus here is the plateau is the wrong place for mb's"

The clear consensus is that there is no consensus.

I agree with Geoff - there is no clear consensus just a debate. I have discussed this one with many folk mountaineers and mountain bikers and there is no clear consensus at all - its about a 50 / 50 split IME

I've not read the article but I've seen the pictures. I've also ridden with Sanny a few times and know first hand how seriously he takes erosion issues and responsible riding. In fact the constant, No Skidding, Keep to the Path can be a bit boring... especially when he comes here and tells me off for skidding on my own trails! 😉 Did Sanny not also write an article a few months ago where he strongly criticised some guy for riding off the path on Ben Lomond?

The access issues are so complex and there are arguments on both sides. I can find very little evidence of MTB erosion here, however what I see here is the damage that irresponsible MX'rs can do, stuff that I know has been ridden for decades can be ruined in a week when some idiot puts it on Wikiloc and MX'rs ride it on a wet weekend.

My mag should be here this week so I'm looking forward to reading the article then.

The plateaux is Kms wide, the paths yards wide. Riding the existing paths? No problem. Seems Ok for the northside of Cairngorm to have ski facilities visible from the moon but a few MTBs use the paths on the tops and the treehuggers are up in arms.

Doug

Ssshussh! You'll spoil my reputation as eco terrorist with that posting!

I'm glad you remember just as I told you, skids are for kids! 😉

Beagleboy

There is a definite irony to your post. You say you spent two months on the plateau working on a project that facilitated the construction of a hulking great lump of a funicular? I'd be interested to compare the impact of my tyres on two rides with the impact of your walking boots for the two months you spent on the plateau. 😉

Cheers

Sanny

I've not read the article but because if this thread I'm off up there to shred it to bits on my Orange Five. Yes I live south of the border so i'll be pulling loads of skids too.

Sanny +1
Way too snowy for bicycle eco terrorism, i'm off to Sneachda to send "The Magic Crack" for a winter climbers version, the crack now stripped of pesky lichen and turf, is now fair game for my axes and bicycling crampons.

There needs to be perspective, a few mtbrs is a drop in the ocean compared to the numbers of skiers, ramblers and winter climbers.

I read the article, and found it inspirational.

I wish the article hadn't mentioned sticking to paths, because now I am confused with information from the tinternet. Blimey why is everything so flippin complicated?

I note the warning that it might be difficult to get my Orange 5 up there, especially as I am a soft English type who doesn't care about conservation issues. I guess we've never needed to conserve anything down here, that's why we own Scotland. It's a big conservation theme park, peopled entirely by offspring of David Bellamy, who learned a lot in England then emigrated to Scotland, where thankfully it is still possible to ride according to the principles of Jainism.

for Sanny;
no it is not presence of MTBs that would offend me but teh potential for damage by irresponsible riding, eg going flat out along the paths, sliding around corners, skidding down descents. This is what to me separates walking erosion from potential MTB erosion issues. Would MTBers riding up on the plateau not be tempted to treat it as some super trail centre and ride in a manner akin to trail centres rather than in a touring mode? If I recall correctly from the article reference is made to fabulous descents, don`t tell me that part of teh fun is not going as fast as you can down them leading to skidding ??

Why do you make a direct connection between riding fast and skidding? The two are not necessarily linked. Responsible riding can involve speed AND not skidding. It could be argued that sitting on the brakes all the way down a descent would increase the likelihood of dragging the rear wheel. or do you consider riding fast as irresponsible?

Are fell runners more irresponsible than walkers?

Clearly responsible access calls for a permit system to restrict numbers up there.

First come first served, for walkers and riders. 10 a month should keep things pristine no?

I think we should apply to the EU for a grant to put a roof up.

"Would MTBers riding up on the plateau not be tempted to treat it as some super trail centre and ride in a manner akin to trail centres"

Have you been up there? It feels super vast, mountainous, isolated and subject to extreme weather. An injury can be really serious. Nothing like a trail centre.

[img] [/img]

Sanny - I am going to continue to call the decision to write and publish (particularly publish) an article that encourages riding on the Cairngorm Plateau moronic. Fair enough the article may or may not feature a route that is already eroded by walkers and it may or may not mention that the plateau is a fragile habitat. But this next bit is where I have a problem - anyone that knows how to act responsibly in a place like that doesnt need an magazine article to figure a route out for themselves. The article will only serve to get people up there who dont have a clue what they are riding over. These people will get lost up there and will end up riding all over the most fragile elements of the ecosystem.

mmm

Being serious for a minute I can't see it attracting anyone that's not a bit of a specialist to go up there.

Not sure I could see some monster energy swiggers being arsed to put the work in to be honest.

It does look 'super vast' and gnarley man

Surrounded By Zulus - Member
Sanny - I am going to continue to call the decision to write and publish (particularly publish) an article that encourages riding on the Cairngorm Plateau moronic. Fair enough the article may or may not feature a route that is already eroded by walkers and it may or may not mention that the plateau is a fragile habitat. But this next bit is where I have a problem - anyone that knows how to act responsibly in a place like that doesnt need an magazine article to figure a route out for themselves. The article will only serve to get people up there who dont have a clue what they are riding over. These people will get lost up there and will end up riding all over the most fragile elements of the ecosystem.

Rubbish. I work with environmental managers and physical geographers who research things like soil erosion and cold environments, and part of my thesis examined issues of conservation so I understand how to treat sensitive landscapes. I've walked up to the plateau twice with students and, because we understand the sensitivity of the area, we pay for local rangers to act as guides. Yet i didn't know there was a mountain bike route of the top. A colleague and I are considering taking our bikes on the field trip this year because of this article.

Loathe to get involved in this, but it's not really a problem if people stick to the paths, is it?

And who's more likely to stray from the paths? Walkers or bikers?

The first poster said it himself - he doesn't have the legs to get involved with a route like this. He can join the club - 99%+ of mountain bikers don't have the legs, inclination or proximity to get up there. So the reality of it (versus the perception) is that it's self-regulating and completely sustainable for such a massive area and the miniscule numbers of cyclists we're talking about. Certainly harmless in comparison to the hiking that gets done.

If you want to argue the perception of mountain biking there then I'd have to agree that's a more contentious issue. Guess that's the nub of the issue with publicising the route in print.

CaptJon - did you read what I wrote? Because if you did you seem to have totally missed my point. Also - there isnt a mountain bike route anywhere outside of a trail centre in scotland, they are merely paths used by people pursuing a number of recreational activities.

Stick to the paths... That's the way to be responsible.

The article specifically states 'stick to the paths' and explains at various points why you should do this. I'm happy to debate the issues around access to this area but being called 'moronic' is stepping over the mark and frankly insulting.

Surrounded By Zulus - Member
CaptJon - did you read what I wrote? Because if you did you seem to have totally missed my point. Also - there isnt a mountain bike route anywhere outside of a trail centre in scotland, they are merely paths used by people pursuing a number of recreational activities.

Someone put a route together for me which i'd not be able to do because i don't know what the local paths are like. A tried and test route ready for action; a bit more countryside opened up for mountain bikers to ride.

Mark - do you really think its responsible to promote riding on the MacDui plateau in a national magazine

Altho it might not generate a lot of extra traffic it might. Several people on this thread has commented on how folk are organising group rides on it as a result of the article.

While it can be debated whether or not it is possible to have responsible access to the plateau on a bike I really don't see how publicising it in a magazine can be anything but irresponsible. Its not as if there is not lots of other riding in the area that is perfectly acceptable.

This is a very special and fragile landscape of international importance

I swing both ways on this one. I believe that it's too easy to attract additional visitors by publishing routes. However, I also tend to think that [i]at the moment[/i] this one is pretty-much self regulating on account of its remoteness and the challenge of getting there. I've often said it's strange that thousands of walkers following the same route make a path but one cyclist causes erosion 😕

(Gratuitous Cairngorm summit photo)
[url= http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3071/2850661094_6812d105a3_z.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3071/2850661094_6812d105a3_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/druidh2000/2850661094/ ]2008-07-28 16-37-40[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/druidh2000/ ]druidh_dubh[/url], on Flickr

However, there are many who would like to see a full-on trail developed from the Ptarmigan [i]down[/i] to either the car park or even Glen More, using the funicular for uplift. That would only ever be possible if the developers and conservationists were convinced that they'd not e encouraging wider access. It seems to me that articles like the one in question are likely to suggest otherwise.

TandemJeremy - Member
Mark - do you really think its responsible to promote riding on the MacDui plateau in a national magazine

Altho it might not generate a lot of extra traffic it might. Several people on this thread has commented on how folk are organising group rides on it as a result of the article.

While it can be debated whether or not it is possible to have responsible access to the plateau on a bike I really don't see how publicising it in a magazine can be anything but irresponsible. Its not as if there is not lots of other riding in the area that is perfectly acceptable.

This is a very special and fragile landscape of international importance

Yeah but walkers deserve to enjoy the countryside and areas of intergalactic ecological significance. Mountain bikers don't.

[I]This is a very special and fragile landscape of international importance[/I]

So why isn't walkers eroding a path there an issue then?

This is a very special and fragile landscape of international importance

Once again, please explain to me this specialness and importance and while you're at it, explain why these definitions should override the opinions of others whose usage of the landscape does not agree with them.

These people will get lost up there and will end up riding all over the most fragile elements of the ecosystem

Maybe you should read the article and look at the pics before writing such moronic comments. The path is well defined, I went up in dense mist and only got a wee bit lost 🙂

I only rode over a few of these before finding the path again.
[img] [/img]

So to summarise; the article was responsibly written, there are already a great many articles and books that have been written about this area, we should stick to the paths and/or ride responsibly. Have I missed anything? Get a fat bike maybe?

And I wouldn't worry about folk south of the border coming up and riding roughshod over our precious hills. Most of them start to panic at the thought of the midgies, never mind the cold, the wet and the fact that its further away than Spain or Portugal.

Trailmonkey - there was a very good link given earlier by Geoff that descibes the special significance of the plateau.

some people need to actually read the article!

This is a very special and fragile landscape of international importance

if this is the case then why are thousands of walkers allowed to walk all over it every year?
as said above who's more likely to stray from the path, walkers or bikers?

there's some ****ing high dandy horses around 🙄

there was a very good link given earlier by Geoff that descibes the special significance of the plateau.

❓

I found a link from geoffj that was a list of flora and fauna, is that it ? If so, it fails to specify any quantifiable significance. It merely lists a bunch of stuff that scientists have promoted to the point whereby they have some inhererrent importance that we should all accept without question. I fail to see why this interpretation on the significance of the landscape should over ride all others.

Try googling the AHD for an enlightening perspective on the uses of heritage resources.

Mark - do you really think its responsible to promote riding on the MacDui plateau in a national magazine

Yes I do. I think we did it responsibly. That's good enough for me. You don't agree. That's fine too. I expect that fact annoys you a lot more than it does me.

Mark - it don't annoy me. Its clear to me from a series of discussions on here and in real life that this is not a clear cut issue by any means. Folk who understand the issues and whos view I respect disagree with me.

I think debating it is healthy and will help raise awareness of the issues which can only be good. I hope your promotion of riding on the plateau does not lead to issues but I fear it will

Time will tell.

Trailmonkey - do you really not understand how special it is? Are you that hard of thinking? Do you really think your right to roam means you can do what you want when you want without considering anything? 🙄

no need for insults tj, completely unwarranted, just because i don't agree with your point. i'm not even interested in a right to roam, merely interested in questioning heritage interpretation.

the irony is that i'm the one who is actually bothering to think rather than just blindly accepting the importance of one set of values over another.

Trailmonkey - do you really not understand how special it is? Are you that hard of thinking? Do you really think your right to roam means you can do what you want when you want without considering anything?

He's citing an idea which draws on poststructrualist theory to deconstruct hegemonic scientific and political discourses to demonstrate the power relations embedded within conservation designation and practice - i think he gets your perspective. Do you get his?

These fatbikes which are all the rage now are even better, allowing me to get off the beaten track and crush rare plants, ptarmigan eggs and baby capercaillies willy nilly.

😮

What is a Capercaillie? Is it like a sort of hedgehoggy thing?

Is it related to a Haggis?

I don't know about these sort of things, I'm sorry. 😳

I understand trailmonkeys point and in some cases he clearly is right.

However this is the wrong case to make his point the one set of values over another case is really clear on this one unlike in some areas.

That response shows you don't get it.