Forum menu
Very likely that i am going to buy one of these bikes next in 27.5 wheel size. I currently have a Trek remedy which is a great bike but i want to try something different. Santa Cruz seems to tick all the boxes but there seems to be a big price difference between the Heckler & Bronson.
From what i've read into it, the Bronson has VPP suspension while the Heckler doesn't. Can sombody explain exactly what this is and is it worth spending the extra money to have it?
[url= http://www.santacruzbikes.co.uk/vpp ]http://www.santacruzbikes.co.uk/vpp[/url]
Best idea would be to get on one of their demo days and try both out.
I like virtual pivot/dual link suspension bikes myself, but other people say they prefer single pivots.
the VPP suspension is way ahead of the single pivot heckler, cant go into detail sorry but i would say if you can afford the Bronson then get that bike rather than going for the dated single pivot.
my mate has just bought a bronson and loves it
he rode it over in the alps and to say it coped with every thing would be an understatement.
search youtube for Les Arcs Black 8 Santa Cruzs Bronson and u will see him riding a black run using my camera
Hecklers are equally capably of getting you down a black run - if you hold on I'll find pictures of my other half doing just that in the Alps. Riders normally run out of ability way before their bikes.
I ride a LT2 (VPP) and love it, Ms AD recently switched from a Prophet to Heckler (both single pivot) and is getting on well with it. The price difference was a big incentive for her, as well as the stiffer, more HT feeling, on road climbs when locked out.
We're 26ers mind.
pros and cons to single pivot and multi pivot. Not least of course in this case is that there's around an extra 450 reasons why the heckler may be better.the dated single pivot.
Is disappointed to see the heckler has now jumped up to 5-esque prices 🙁
i didnt mention that a heckler couldnt do the same job i said if you would like to watch the video of a bronson then do so!
there is no doubt it the bronson is a better bike
there is no doubt it the bronson is [s]a better[/s] the more expensive bike
surly the more u pay for something then the better it is 😉
surlys are expensive yes, tho not as expensive as santa cruz
🙂
Haven't ridden either of the new ones, used to prefer the old Heckler to Blur LTs though. Owned a Five and Meta, really like single pivots personally.
Claiming one is better because your friend just bought one. I can't disupte this, it's solid logic. The likes of Mega Avalanche is won lots by Commencals and Lapierres, ie aged single pivots and 20 year old 4 bar designs.
It's lucky your mate didn't sign up, hardly would have been fair for everyone else, against that rebranded Maestro/floating pivot tech would it?!
on another note the bronson looks better too!! 😆
The Heckler is a great bike, by all accounts. The main issues with it compared to the Bronson, are that it is a bit less stiff, and you'll get noticeable chain growth. Neither of these will be show stoppers, I wouldn't have thought.
on another note the bronson looks better too!!
I do like that yellow one 🙂
[img] 
[/img]
Not sure how you define "better" or "best", but this is hard to beat:
[img] 
[/img]
RIP BLTs 🙁
It's done the Mega twice, and its predecessor (black ano, medium frame) must have done Black 8 4 or 5 times. No videos though I'm afraid...
...but this is ok too:
[img] 
[/img]
Commencals and Lapierres, ie aged single pivots and 20 year old 4 bar designs.
Quite a big difference between linkage driven SP and simple Sps though isn't there?
rebranded Maestro/floating pivot tech would it?!
With maestro being a DW rip off, and having owned a DW and VPP and VPP 2, they are very very different indeed. Also VPP pre-dates maestro and DW.
All are dependent on good shock set up!!!
You'll be happy with either. I have a heckler and its very good. Way more capable than me.
People doggin single pivot make me laugh! Joe Barnes used to ride a single pivot pretty quick so there is obviously nothing wrong with the design, I also come across many riders while I am riding my dated single pivot design but can't remember being beaten to the bottom, it's about buying a bike that's fits you properly and you feel comfortable with, it's all about the pilot not the plane.
Nothing wrong with single pivot! Enjoyed riding mine for a whistler season.. I actually prefer it, much less hassle when it comes to bearing change day.
Adore my Heckler, has an amazing flow on the trail, climbs like a mountain goat and descends beautifully.
I've ridden some of Santa Cruz's newer line up, but be it suspension setup, or component choice, I instantly missed the Heckler.
Tbh, it seems that you'll really need to have go on them to see which suspension design feels right for you, and as said above all are dependant on good shock setup.
Apparently the switch suspension setup on the yeti sb66 doesn't rely so heavily on needing the shock being perfectly setup, but that's going off topic a bit.
Great video cubemeup.
My LBS only have the Bronson on demo so not able to compare. I'll maybe have a word with them and see if I can sort something out.
I suppose I would be happy with either bike but there is quite a difference in price between the two.
Cant believe no one has mentioned maintenance! Single pivots only have 2 bearings to worry about, which imo is big factor.
gone from heckler 26 to blur LTc so the same thing really.
The heckler is solid, capable and dependable. The single pivot design relies heavily on the shock, it needs a good tune to hold up in the middle. I rode one all over for years but there was always something lacking.
Got hold of my LTc last month and it's very different. VERY DIFFERENT.
It hugs the floor where the heckler would kick a bit and skip over stuff the Blur holds the ground, the increase in grip is noticeable. Hit heaps on it without ever doubting it in Rotorua, couple that with a more stability when putting power down and a much better pedal platform it feels zippier and quicker out of corners or the rough stuff when you crank on. The other difference is when you get it airborne, it takes a different technique to get it off the ground. Would I say the VPP is worth more than the single pivot? Yes, is the heckler a bad bike no, it's just not the best.
side note is VPP seems to work well with Fox CTD rear shocks
Fit and set up probably most important, I rode Josh Bryceland's TRC setup for him (albeit I am 2 " shorter but same weight) and it could have been a fully rigid bike!! He rides faster higher and bigger than I could dream of, hence the stiff set up, they also run the front stiff to maintain the geometry when hammering downhill, or big landings.
However with some fettling of the forks and shock, i could make it suitable for my speed and type of riding.
If you had ridden the bike unwittingly, without adjustment most would have said the VPP2 TRC was crap!!
Also VPP pre-dates maestro and DW.
Yeah, but putting it in the context of a bog standard Giant removes the awe and wonder the seems to come with it having Santa Cruz written on the side.
Given the first link posted was a VPP sales pitch.
I wouldn't assume the Heckler will be flexy, the new ones have a big 142mm rear axle. Should be quite a leap from the old ones.
Quite a big difference between linkage driven SP and simple Sps though isn't there?
Only really the curve of the spring rate, which can be tweaked to some degree by changing the shock volume? The "?" on the end is because I'm not 100% sure of what I'm saying, my Meta was really plush compared to my Five 🙂
Yeah, but putting it in the context of a bog standard Giant removes the awe and wonder the seems to come with it having Santa Cruz written on the side.
Oi! I happen to think that giants are very good bikes!
I prefer VPP but it carries a price penalty. Still worth it [i]to me[/i] but I understand what you are saying, you can still get very good performance for much less.
Only really the curve of the spring rate,
That's pretty much a big difference! It's all that linkages and fancy sus designs do isn't it?
You need to ride each bike, I had a blur LT, fantastis suspension with at the back but I could not get the position just right, got a heckler and got my riding position right. Gave me so much more confidence.
i'm a former blur LTc owner and i definitely wouldn't pay any sort of premium for the VPP back end or the build quality. the Five i had before it and the strive i had after it are both better bikes quality wise and in ride characteristics.
If you really want a twin link type rear end go for the maestro system, it rides much better than VPP or DW
If a heckler is now the same price as an Orange 5, you may aswell get the Orange and support UK manufacturing. Plus you get a decent headangle aswell.
[quote=davidtaylforth ]If a heckler is now the same price as an Orange 5, you may aswell get the Orange and support UK manufacturing. Plus you get a decent headangle aswell.
Five is 66.5 and heckler is 67 so bugger all in it. The five is also £1,499(monarch RL) vs the Heckler at £1,349(Fox CTD) for a 150mm frame that will take a 160mm fork. Orange now suggesting the max for the 5 is 150mm. Apart from all that clearly the 5 is different 🙂
Anyone who thinks a five is better in terms of ride or quality thana LTc has sensory issues.
🙂
Guess they've changed the heckler then, it used to be really steep.
A five is made by proper british people who ride bikes for king and country.
I'm not sure who makes Santa Cruz bikes, but I did see a video featuring their marketing guy, and he was a pillock.
[quote=davidtaylforth ]
Guess they've changed the heckler then, it used to be really steep.
It used to be a little steeper, with 160mm it was fine, I can say it never really held me back, must be more to these bikes that just numbers on a page.
They should have stuck to skateboards
Yeah, well that's it. Most owners tend to think they ride ok, but whenever I've seen photos of them (the bikes not the owners) they've looked all over the place
Like this one, it looks all out of whack
[img] [/img]
I had a Bullit which I think has the same angles and it was fine. The steeper head angle (about 68 I think) made jumps easier and more fun than something really slack and long.
Well, my friend had a VP free and it was nice over bumps but it was shit over jumps. Not as poppy as my single pivot made in the uk Orange Patriot, although that was worse over bumps and the 5th element shock was shocker.
Have you considered a 29er?
A five is made by proper british people who ride bikes for king and country.I'm not sure who makes Santa Cruz bikes,
They are made in Taiwan & China by people who probably care as much about their job as the guys at Orange.
davidtaylforth - Member - Quote
Yeah, well that's it. Most owners tend to think they ride ok, but whenever I've seen photos of them (the bikes not the owners) they've looked all over the place
Extensive testing then... perhaps you should try one.
[img]
[/img][img]
[/img]yep all over the place, utter.....
[url= http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5107/5845412333_3e4ea14c19.jp g" target="_blank">
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5107/5845412333_3e4ea14c19.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/mikewsmith/5845412333/ ]IMAG0341[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/mikewsmith/ ]Mike Smith 79[/url], on Flickr
That red one looks good mike. Not sure about the white one, I imagine the head angle was steep on that due to the forks losing all their travel??
If you want a single pivot santa cruz, get one of these. There's a stash hole in the swingarm so you can get rid of your camelback. Way ahead of their time
[img] 
[/img]
[url= http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7095/7178971231_5cd95fce88.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/mikewsmith/7178971231/ ]Mega 2011[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/mikewsmith/ ]Mike Smith 79[/url], on Flickr
Yes shockingly the HA changed while the forks compressed, like I said it didn't really hold me back any. I have ridden single pivots a lot, I tried a 5 and an Alpine nice paint jobs - cheap spec. Couldn't see what you got over a Heckler for the same money as an Alu VPP bike. If the pound ever recovers the maybe the orange will look more expensive and the SC start to look cheaper.
How come you ride Santa Cruz bikes over all the other available suspension bikes? What is it that appeals? I have never understood it really. Apart from the chameleon which looks like a fun bike, none have ever appealed. I did have a go on a lightweight jackal build, that was good fun for messing about on