Yep, my Levo rides just like a normal bike (with some extra ballast) with the power turned off. Personally I prefer how the extra mass makes it handle in all but uphill situations, and especially in terms of suspension behaviour and when you’re airborne.
That’s the thing though. Customers don’t see the sub £4K market as ‘still really good’. They see it as ‘its a third the price of the stuff I see in the mags/on Instagram, so must be inferior. I can’t afford £12k for the good stuff, so I won’t bother.’
Brands should never assume 'customers' are one thing, one mentality or 'all like us'. But it's easy to see the market through your own eyes. Price is marketing, price positioning is how every brand finds space in the market, etc. Brands like Bird make great bikes at a good value RRP. Other brands make Al FS bikes with slicker marketing and stories and cool team riders and add 30% to the RRP. People buy into one or another because they're different types of consumers.
You and I buy bikes differently Tom - with respect, I know you're happy to pay for stuff that I wouldn't be interested in even at trade price and that's no criticism or dig, it's just that I see value in different things or types of product. We're almost opposite ends of the rider-consumer line, we support different parts of the market and different brands. A £12k MTB has absolutely no impact on how I relate to MTB as a pass-time, scene, etc either. If you owned one and we rode together it would make no difference to how I see you as a rider - only a hint at you as a consumer.
Almost no-one of basic fitness and health needs a battery or full suspension to have fun on a bike off-road. If you do see it as a need or you're into Enduro racing vs 'just riding off-road' you just need to accept the costs are far higher, you're into a different game now - how much higher links into how you see brands, value, yourself as a consumer etc. SC are using price as marketing here, that's all.
We’re almost opposite ends of the rider-consumer line
- btw not meant as 100% rider one end, 100% consumer the other, reads wrongly. More like riders as consumers, about willingness to spend on tech - or the retrogrouch to loves-new-gear line.
There is a tiny bit of extra drag when pedaling and the motor not running because you are turning a few more bits ie a clutch ( on most bikes). Its insignificant tho
On the bosch ones with the small drive sprocket there is a chunk more drag as you are turning an reduction gear as well
You are not turning the motor tho
When you are freewheeling there is no extra drag
Customers don’t see the sub £4K market as ‘still really good’. They see it as ‘its a third the price of the stuff I see in the mags/on Instagram, so must be inferior.
Sorry I can't see where this was originally posted, so I'm not sure who I'm addressing - but I'm sure it's a red herring.
I have a wide circle of riding buddies, all been into it for years and know what's what kit-wise. Not sure anyone's on a bike that cost more than £4k.
Personally my Radon cost me £2k, and I've put maybe £600 of upgrades on it (adjusting for sale of OE parts) - and there's nothing I'd change. Lyrik RC2, Float X2, Hope/E13 wheels, Code brakes - decent overall weight, progressive geometry and 170mm travel both ends - it's a very fast and capable bike which I'm sure is a match for the SC Megatower or whatever premium brand bike.
To suggest that £12k bikes somehow devalue £3k or £4k bikes is daft and I'd be a bit more robust than James and suggest anyone thinking that needs to spend more time riding and less time on the internet.
If the £4k figure was specifically about eBikes (which doesn't seem the case from James' reply), then that's not my area of expertise.
Why would a Skoda owner be smug? Nothing wrong with them but they’re white goods.
All cars (and bikes) are white goods, that's exactly my point. A Skoda is a Hotpoint fridge and a Range Rover is a Smeg frigde. They do the same job at widely differing prices, but one has a certain "prestige" in the mind of the buyer. Who may be considered a mug or a snob by some.
who ever above said a Golf is aspirational is wrong
I'm not a car enthusiast, but the only time I can remember anyone telling me they aspired to own a particular car in the last 20 years was a woman I used to work with.
Doing quite well and promoted into middle management in media in London, she said "I'm buying a VW Golf, I've always wanted to have one."
But she must have been wrong.
“I have a wide circle of riding buddies, all been into it for years and know what’s what kit-wise. Not sure anyone’s on a bike that cost more than £4k.”
I think a handful of people I ride with have a bike that cost a bit more than that but not very many. And that’s out of a lot of people.
Regarding ebikes, £5k got me a Levo with Hope V4 brakes, a BikeYoke Revive dropper and a 160mm Lyrik RC2. And that’s a current model Levo, which is far from the best value ebike, bought from my LBS. I struggle to see how an ebike could be any better, different sure, but quantifiably better, doubtful. It’s a hell of a lot of money anyway, even if you could spend more than twice as much!
who ever above said a Golf is aspirational is wrong
Aspiration isn't only related to price. The Golf is one of the strongest brand/model names in that part of the market, has been for decades. An original hot-hatch and marketed well ever since. Brand power, all about aspiration whether that's aspiring to an image or elitism. Backs up why I think a mid-range bike can still be aspirational, that £12k premium price aspiration doesn't negatively impact on image/attitude type of aspiration.
Edit, look at how many aspired to Sick! Bikes brand image... followed them like the pied piper, keen to align with all that radness.
If the £4k figure was specifically about eBikes (which doesn’t seem the case from James’ reply), then that’s not my area of expertise.
Tom's post was how this £12k model affects perception of the £4k type equivalent, so e-bikes here, or custom road bikes, pretty much the same thing.
Backs up why I think a mid-range bike can still be aspirational, that £12k premium price aspiration doesn’t negatively impact on image/attitude type of aspiration.
As alluded to already, ebikes are often touted as a way of getting people who maybe wouldn't ride a normal bike out on the trails.
Imagine someone who is interested in getting one who walks into a shop knowing nothing about bikes and sees a £12k one on the wall, asks if they have anything cheaper and gets shown the "entry level" model at £4k.
What percentage of people are just going to walk out at that point knowing that they will never be able to afford to get into the sport? Many people equate that the second cheapest option is often the best wine choice in a restaurant, so say that's £5k.
Honestly how many people can really afford that as an entry into a sport?
Back in 1997 when I was 17 my dream bike/car combo was a Santa Cruz heckler and a golf GTI , currently have a flare max and a Honda although if someone offered me a Bronson and a golf I wouldn’t say no .
Im not sure these expensive bikes are going to threaten mtbing , if anything I think these days there is an abundance of really good relatively cheaper bikes from the likes of Bird , nukeproof , canyon etc and that ibis ripmo af looks the business . I do a few enduro races and although you do see a few 6k bikes you see far more 2 to 3 k ones . Just as people will buy the heckler there will be more on vitus , canyon , yt etc
Honestly how many people can really afford that as an entry into a sport?
How many people think like that ? Pretty much everyone I know who rides started with a relatively cheap hardtail moved on to a better hardtail before getting a full suss .
The thing about ebikes getting new people into mtbing is interesting as I would reckon at the moment most people who own a full suss ebike are already mtbers with a normal bike . I wonder if you took someone who had never ridden before to say glentress and they rode an ebike and had a brilliant time would they think about buying an ebike or a normal bike , would they see what they had done as mtbing or emtbing and view them as different activities.
Imagine someone who is interested in getting one who walks into a shop knowing nothing about bikes and sees a £12k one on the wall, asks if they have anything cheaper and gets shown the “entry level” model at £4k.
What percentage of people are just going to walk out at that point knowing that they will never be able to afford to get into the sport<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">?</span>
As already pointed out, there has always been a very expensive "top end", S-Works, Pinarellos etc have been around for decades. Most folk aren't interested in spending that amount of money and know that when they go into a shop. Folk don't walk into a bike shop, see a £6k SC and then walk out, they ask about what is available within their budget. I don't think that the general public are as shallow as many folk on here seem to be suggesting.
What percentage of people are just going to walk out at that point knowing that they will never be able to afford to get into the sport?
I don't think many people are walking into bike shops aspiring to start in the sport of powered technical terrain mountain biking, or if they are they're like kite surfers or jet skiers and prepared to pay for the gadgets.
The 'sport' thing as some see it here and the 'new riders' is misaligned. In your example the customer walked into a shop that's not selling well to them, or a specialist shop - entry price points for a leisure E-MTB (one for people that wouldn't usually ride) is about £2k for an E-hardtail that will do well on basic to middling trails. A E-FS at £12k, even £4-5k, may be about as relevant to them as someone looking at ice-climbing gear for winter walks in the valleys.
- If you need E- or FS or both to get out on 'tech trails' then pay the price, £3k or more. If you just want to get out on a bike it's much cheaper.
Honestly how many people can really afford that as an entry into a sport?
Another way I'd look at this - how many people can afford a £25k+ car on HP when paying half that does the same job? Many. In comparison a £5k bike isn't a stretch? No-one's being put off 'the sport' based on E-bike pricing, sales suggest the opposite - average selling prices are up and e-bike sales are booming. New riders who wouldn't have spent £800 on a hybrid before are buying £2k+ e-bikes, the spend hike on FS MTBs to E-FS is probably smaller % wise but not much. The E- part adds value in ways that many of us who are long-time cyclists don't appreciate or relate to.
Pretty much everyone I know who rides started with a relatively cheap hardtail moved on to a better hardtail before getting a full suss .
That's kind of my point.
What's the cheapest ebike you can get that isn't just complete tat? £2k? Maybe?
What's a decent non ebike? £600?
The amount of people who just will instantly be turned off when they find out that even the most basic entry level model costs so much I think will be very high. I'm sure many people equate "entry level" to mean "for beginners" as well.
Conversely, I would suggest that if you live somewhere hilly and aren’t keen on pedalling hard, then a ebike is vastly more appealing than a normal bike - it might cost more but its more than justified in the pleasure some people would get from it.
We are mountain bikers - we like pedalling pretty hard or we wouldn’t have ending up with this hobby! Loads of people like the idea of cruising through the countryside, not getting rad downhill or blowing up their lungs and legs uphill, basically going for a nice walk but going further thanks to wheels and having a motor to make the uphills less horrible.
Also I’m quite happy pedalling hard and like how much quicker my commutes are, the time saved easily justifies the cost.
I don't really see eMTBs ever touted as an entry into the sport, they are usually aimed at existing riders who want to get bigger rides completed in a given time or want to use the bike like an uplift thus enabling them to get more down runs in at a bike park. Bikes aimed at the new rider are the likes of a hardtail or a Bird or Calibre full suspension.
To be honest if you walk into a shop that sells Santa Cruz or Yeti (or similar) the options for budget entry level bikes are likely to be a bit more limited as they are probably a higher end dealer.
Another way I’d look at this – how many people can afford a £25k+ car on HP when paying half that does the same job? Many. In comparison a £5k bike isn’t a stretch? No-one’s being put off ‘the sport’ based on E-bike pricing
I don't know the figures, but a mountain bike is purely for leisure (unless you commute on it) . A car for many is a necessity.
I assume most people get into riding through friends and the amount of people who just pick it up individually to be fairly small.
If your group of friends all have mid range £5k ebikes and you have a £50 Halfords special you found in the shed then your pressure to get an ebike is huge if you want to carry on riding with them.
I just can't see how that many people can afford to throw down this kind of money.
If your group of friends all have mid range £5k ebikes and you have a £50 Halfords special you found in the shed then your pressure to get an ebike is huge if you want to carry on riding with them.
Yeah, I mentioned this previously. Once a couple of folk on my regular crew buy Ebikes, and take them on our joint rides, I'll likely step back. I've no intention/desire to own one and neither do I want to be the last guy up the hill, holding them back.
I just can’t see how that many people can afford to throw down this kind of money.
This is STW where TJ is regularly castigated for reminding folk that a £50k salary puts them in the very top %age of earners. I guess there's enough folk out there that the industry thinks worth chasing.
Tom’s post was how this £12k model affects perception of the £4k type equivalent, so e-bikes here, or custom road bikes, pretty much the same thing.
OK ta, well I'd respectfully suggest that's a load of guff.
Most casual buyers won't even be aware there are £12k MTBs and the rest of us will just laugh at them - and at the mugs who buy them.
We all know there are massive diminishing returns after £2-4k, anyone letting shiny gold stanchions or electric shifting give them gear-based FOMO needs to get out and ride more, as I said before.
Taking the road bike example, I wouldn't mind trading in my 2012 Cr1 for something like a TCR Advanced pro disc (the Ultegra model). You could get them for a bit over £2k in the sales last year and I think they even had carbon wheels. Shame I was skint really.
Anyone spending £12k on a road bike (and I know you easily can) is really chasing the marginal gains, eh?
Once a couple of folk on my regular crew buy Ebikes, and take them on our joint rides, I’ll likely step back.
Anecdotally, I've heard that when some people in a group get ebikes they tend to splinter off because they're basically incompatible with group rides.
I don't think us luddites will ever struggle to find a non-E group ride.
If your group of friends all have mid range £5k ebikes and you have a £50 Halfords special you found in the shed then your pressure to get an ebike is huge if you want to carry on riding with them.
Distorted example as it's not really about price, just bike type but yes to a point the arms-race in riding groups already sells £1.5k wheelsets to roadies, £4k aero bikes to club TTers and £3k FS MTBs to those that don't keep up downhill and worry about it. E-bikes are no different. So you get a £2k E-MTB on HP or ride to work, or buy S/H. Or your e-biker mates wait for you at the top as most fitter riders do on group rides anyway, or you get fitter by riding with e-bikers. Or ride with other people if bike type is too divisive.
Capitalism means there's always a cheap option and adding to the top end doesn't change any of that.
OK ta, well I’d respectfully suggest that’s a load of guff.
That view came to me from within the bike industry, that halo bikes don’t actually make the mid range stuff look good value to people getting into the sport (or even folk already in, as demonstrated further up the thread), as even the mid range is expensive now, so I’d suggest there’s something to it.
halo bikes don’t actually make the mid range stuff look good value to people getting into the sport (or even folk already in, as demonstrated further up the thread), as even the mid range is expensive now
Well that may be a different argument. Are you saying very expensive bikes shift where the "mid range" is? That's guff too anyway. Low-end is under £1k (£1.5k for full sus maybe), mid range is £2k to £3.5k-ish, over that is high end.
The existence of a £12k bike doesn't suddenly make everyone think £6k is mid-range, that's still a silly amount to spend on a bike for most of us.
Does it make you think that though Tom?
Mean/mode/median.. more top end / £12k bikes only shift the median sense of mid-range price.
If anything, halo bikes like this SC make bikes using the same motor or build from other brands look better value - good value is relative to the competition. Mid-range to 'the industry' really is average selling price and customers decide that. If it goes up then the marketing is working : )
To me, where something sits in a range is based on the spec of the bike. Thing is the spec levels have been staying the same but pricing has crept up with the super bling stuff. I’ve seen plenty of people complaining that 3-4K+ bikes now are NX, even SX and sub deore kit, generic wheels, OEM ‘only’ suss and own brand finishing kit. That, to me isn’t midrange, it’s entry level. Better specs are available from the direct brands of course, but newcomers aren’t going to see those, as they aren’t in their local shop, or people don’t want the hassle of building the bike/sending it back if wrong/broken.
3-4K+ bikes now are NX, even SX and sub deore kit, generic wheels, OEM ‘only’ suss and own brand finishing kit.
Some E-FS bikes below 3.5k yes. Entry level E-FS is £3-4k. They're expensive products for sure.
Better specs are available from the direct brands of course, but newcomers aren’t going to see those, as they aren’t in their local shop, or people don’t want the hassle of building the bike/sending it back if wrong/broken.
Online sales are big for all bikes already though and almost everyone shops and researches online before going in-store now, so Canyon or Cube likely to set the value levels for anyone looking for an E-FS. Or they go to an e-bike specialist who will have a full range of price points covered. Those going into a shop as a first step are more likely to be leisure-hybrid (or E-HT as an 'SUV') buyers - they're the newcomers. They're not buying E-FS at £4k.
I don't see anything suggesting that E-FS is bringing new riders into the sport or that £4k E-FS alienates anyone. I did something quite general on this for work recently - where the buyers are coming in from and how the price gap-jump between non-E and E-bikes is in different categories, how E-bikes change product demand by product category. E-FS is selling to riders who had a fairly mid-high end MTB already. People don't really 'get into the sport' that directly, seems more fluid than that.
Was at the new STIF shop today and witnessed the ebike, spent 2 mins next to it, it was ok. There were much more interesting bikes there. Hopefully they will bring in other bikes along with Santa Cruz, its a SC showroom at the moment (for bikes). Nice place to be though.
I cant believe a company releases a bike and this place implodes is to utter rubbish.
Some bikes cost more than others some cars cost more than others and some people have more money than others,..through choice or luck.
If someone likes something they will buy it even if there is something different on the market that is cheaper or better.
Far to much bike/car/prestige hate here. Rule one of life "dont be a dick" if someones out on a bike who cares what make it is,if they are happy thats all that matters
Thats to my point stevedoc, just thought it was a bike with a motor when i saw it. A few people surrounding it. I just liked the look of a bike i could own next, which wouldn't be that bike.
As I said before i think its nice the colour is nice too, I wouldn't buy one yet as I feel I have no need for assistance but in the future I might, in the future I might want to drive a 8 year old car and ride a bike costing twice that, I wouldn't care what people thought. I might however need help getting one on the roof of the car..
Fair. Horses for courses right!
Im talking more about e mountain bikes here rather than ebikes in general.
There are plenty of "good value" ebikes.
The trouble comes when they are compared to good value NON ebikes.
There is a personality crisis going on within ebike manufacture and marketing at the moment. Partly industry made and partly due to some buyers assumptions.
I think things will clarify over the next few years. It will probably suit the industry and the buyers (eventually) when there is a bit more "space" between bikes and ebikes. There is a bigger difference between them than we like to generally acknowledge at the moment.
I know many won't agree with that though.
“There is a bigger difference between them than we like to generally acknowledge at the moment.
I know many won’t agree with that though.”
Have you spent much time riding ebikes?
I’ve done 1600 miles on my Levo and I’d say that there is less difference between eMTBs and normal MTBs than most people think.
Thats what i've noticed chiefgrooveguru. Emountainbikes have split the market and as such, i'm interested in one strain. Not the e style. I may well pick it up when my knees are knackered and so, to my mind, more power to those that keep that industry going. I'll get a top bike worth it's salt in that area one day. At the moment, i feel, the industry aren't forcing anything on anyone. They are giving options. You can buy what you feel like riding or what best suits your style. Its a shame these things fall into willy waving though. Down to high price tags i suppose.
Once a couple of folk on my regular crew buy Ebikes, and take them on our joint rides, I’ll likely step back.
Anecdotally, I’ve heard that when some people in a group get ebikes they tend to splinter off because they’re basically incompatible with group rides.
I don’t think us luddites will ever struggle to find a non-E group ride.”
I do both at the moment and enjoy them equally for different reasons. The distance, terrain and elevation you can cover on your e-mtb in a two hour ride when you only have limited time is amazing, either solo or as an e-mtb group (and more of a workout than you might think). For me this is great as family commitments mean I just can’t do the all day rides I used to and often only have an hour two max to get my MTB fix.
However, riding with my buddies on their non e-bikes is also great (as it has been for nearly three decades). Using my e-mtb in eco mode with the assistance dialled down is not very different at all from riding a normal FS bike (albeit a little heavier, but that adds stability and a great suspension feel in my opinion).
The new lighter weight / lower power e-mtb’s are only going to close this gap even further.
I guess you can get a 7k bike for about 4k these days on cycle to work, I haven't used the scheme before but the new limit could make this interesting. Around 4k is the most I want to spend on a pushbike before I start to bawk a little.
I know a fair few in my work who are after ebikes and the C2W scheme is having the 1k limit lifted, unfortunately it's moving to 2.5k and the reality is that there isn't much you can get for that, no full suspension ebikes, only hardtails and with very poor kit compared to normal bikes. For the actual commuters looking for an ebike, they'll be able to get that type of hardtail commuter that'll do the job, but a lot of folk wanting anything remotely weekendish will struggle.
^^^
Does abusing cycle to work scheme to buy overpriced ebikes constitute tax evasion?
I wonder how long the scheme will last now the limits are lifted.
I do both at the moment and enjoy them equally for different reasons.
Very much this for me too.
Still ride my non ebike both with friends and on my own.
Also ride my ebike with friends and on my own, but generally don't ride ebike when most other people in the group are on non e.
no full suspension ebikes
My heart bleeds for them. 'Weekendish" toys don't merit a tax break. Anyone who has seen the state of an A&E ward in the last few years can attest to the fact that that there are better things to spend the nations resources on. Anyone who does is quite frankly a See you next Tuesday in my book.
Pretty sure it's an unlimited limit, depending on how your employer implements it.
I must say as a higher rate tax payer it will be nice to get something back for a change.
My heart bleeds for them. ‘Weekendish” toys don’t merit a tax break.
Compared with many other tax breaks / loopholes the privileged few seem to benefit from under the current regime, I’d say any scheme that gets more people cycling has got to be a good thing (whatever the bike is).
I must say as a higher rate tax payer it will be nice to get something back for a change.
I think I can say as a fellow high rate tax payer I wish you rough rectal treatment with some medieval implement when that's all the NHS have left to use and you fall off your shiny weekendsih 'weapon'.
I'll post a pic up of my 40% discounted ebike when I get it. Just for you. Hope you enjoy.
I’ll post a pic up of my 40% discounted ebike when I get it. Just for you. Hope you enjoy.
If you use it for commuting for work crack on. If it's only for dicking about in woods I wish you a freak ebike electrocution. Nothing wrong with dicking about in woods or doing it on an ebike or any other expensive shiny thing. Bt thinking the nation owes it to you to pay for a portion makes you a grade 1 throbber.
