I like Warner but Elliot knows his stuff. He is a regular on the Downtime Podcast and is very knowledgeable. He raced at World Cup level on the Pivot and Giant Factory teams not that long ago so is a lot more credible and current than Warner is.
He's not a commentator though. He doesn't engage.
He's your Gary Neville
You need a John Motson
Elliot knows his stuff
He does, but his delivery is extremely scripted and doesn't sound natural
As Weeksy says, he’s not the main commentator and would be terrible if he was. Unless there’s someone we haven’t thought of waiting in the wings, I get the feeling the replacement for Warner is going to feel very generic regardless of how good they actually are
Rob wouldn't have stayed with RB if he didn't like the direction they were going. And I think he'll have lots of stuff to do.
Only last month he was part of the team covering the RB Erzbergrodeo Hard Enduro round. I wonder if we'll see him doing more of that series, as it becomes bigger, and more rounds are covered live.
And that brings me to my next point; could RB set up a Hardline series, as Hard Enduro is the template to follow. There was already a World Championship for EnduroGP, but nothing for Hard Enduro. It was just a RB backed series of races, made up of mainly RB events. Eventually, the governing body realised this was getting more coverage/ prestige than the normal Enduro series - and duly granted it full World Championship status.
As for next year, well it's a complete change; Discovery/WB/ESO will do the lot; organise, promote, produce & film the whole lot. Similar to what we see in Motorsport; F1 with Liberty, MotoGP with Dorna & WRC Promoter with the WRC - Who all run those series on behalf of the governing body - and make all the decisions, regarding the calendar, venues, race formats, etc
As someone mentioned, the current sport isn't growing, it's stayed at the current level for about 10 years. Bringing in new major sponsors when there are so few rounds a season isn't easy; 6-9 rounds is nowhere near enough. Why can't the season run from late March to the middle of October?
Why can’t the season run from late March to the middle of October?
Expense. Simple as that I'd guess.
Which brings us back full circle to pro only teams and non privateers
Why can’t the season run from late March to the middle of October?
I just don't think there is enough money in the sport to support a 12+ race season, with travel, equipment costs etc. I'd be surprised if more than 1-2 teams had the ability to race all the events.
Add into that the turnover of injuries and the season would be all over the place, most teams only doing some of the races, teams having to sub in riders from (where?) to cover injuries. As has been said before the increased coverage wouldn't even be worth it to sponsors would it, everyone that is going to watch the races is already doing it. I guess increased exposure in more countries around the world could be an incentive but is there enough room for growth to be sustainable.?
All of which actually brings up another question. What do the teams get from the broadcast rights.? Is it like the rest of cycling where teams and riders get shafted while organisers pocket whatever profit there is.? It doesn't seem like a sustainable model where the people providing the show get no share of the money that the show brings in.
lewis75
I like Warner but Elliot knows his stuff. He is a regular on the Downtime Podcast and is very knowledgeable. He raced at World Cup level on the Pivot and Giant Factory teams not that long ago so is a lot more credible and current than Warner is.
Ok I looked up his stats on Root&Rain and I've done him a disservice saying he has no cred - I guess I'd just never really heard of him before he started the "TV" gigs but I still don't like his presenting.
Oh and Warner's actually won a World Cup doncha know. Surprised you hadn't heard . . . ;o)
I like Elliot in commentary. His manic giggling when the riders get wild is joyous.
I'm really, really hoping that GCN/Discovery aren't thinking of using Marty Mcrossen (sp?) for their commentator. His style of droning on, just repeating the riders names over and over again, completely missing any action, has turned me off from watching cx and women's road racing. He'd kill xco for me.
just so happens that RA happens to be part owner of a bike brand
I stand corrected If you are in the fortunate position of owning a team you can turn up and race when ever you feel like it. Given the way out was presented by her as a last minute decision then I’m less inclined to think she got a wildcard. I feel sorry for the athlete who got bumped out of qualifying and out of the race because she fancied racing.
I feel sorry for the athlete who got bumped out of qualifying and out of the race because she fancied racing
Is that actually a thing in the female class though? I'm sure it could be an issue in the mens, but looking at practice today, only 11 women took part anyway
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/timed-training-results-snowshoe-world-cup-dh-2022-2.html
However, lets be fair on the lass here... she still beat the majority of the field...
I feel sorry for the athlete..
You can't really make up a circumstance as a reason for your weird criticism though. She qualifies as an registered team member with enough points to race, protected under the injured rider system. It's no more odd or conspiratorial than that.
And she finished in 6th place.
I think we just have to accept that charisma has got his knickers in a twist over Rachel and ignore any further commentary from him on the subject.
If she were a rider who'd bought a team, jumped on the bike and come last... i'd get the point a lot more. But that's not really how any of it went...
And Tahnee Seagrave and Marine Caribou are both in pretty much the same position (not racing, recovering from injury) and so did Myriam Nicole earlier in the year, as have other male racers.
Weird to pick on just one rider just because she's had a baby as well and hasn't raced for a bit....
I feel sorry for the athlete who got bumped out of qualifying and out of the race because she fancied racing.
That would be Mikayla Parton.
There are a lot more entries to the European rounds.
I feel sorry for the athlete who got bumped out of qualifying and out of the race because she fancied racing.
Except Rachael had decided to enter (late) the week before. Its not like she just put her entry in the night before and someone got bumped out.
As for point vs team, I think it's a fair system. It means the pros that folk know can keep up with the pace get a place and the privateers can still get a route in by getting results. Unlike the Olympics you can't just do a couple of feeder events to qualify and then just rock up with no real skill (like Vanessa Mae in snowboarding) causing either an embarrassment or safety hazard. UCI points are hard won, if you have one you are good enough for the track, of course that doesn't translate to being good enough for the rest of the field, hence qualifying.
Unlike the Olympics you can’t just do a couple of feeder events to qualify and then just rock up with no real skill (like Vanessa Mae in snowboarding) causing either an embarrassment or safety hazard.
This does actually happen at World Champs though. Countries with no real DH riders are invited to send whichever cyclists they have and you get people who could never, ever qualify for a WC let loose on track. You see people in their national jerseys tripod-ing down the steep bits and dismounting to walk around drops.
Back in the Freecaster days when they used to broadcast the whole thing and it was a sorry spectacle.
If you are in the fortunate position of owning a team you can turn up and race when ever you feel like it. Given the way out was presented by her as a last minute decision then I’m less inclined to think she got a wildcard.
Or, quite simply, she is good enough to be able to do that.
I feel sorry for the athlete who got bumped out of qualifying and out of the race because she fancied racing.
For the sake of clarity, no-one was ‘bumped’ from being able to race. Being part of a trade team affords you the privilege of being able to enter the race, same as anyone else in that position, or with enough UCI points.
At that point, she still needed to qualify. If she didn’t, she wouldn’t have been able to race. Simple.
Maybe, rather than feeling sorry for someone who wasn’t good enough to beat a woman who has been out of racing for nearly 3 years with what could have been a career ending injury, having a child & just riding for fun, you could be positive about one of the best riders the UK has managed to churn out, male or female, in any discipline? 🙂
weeksy
Full Member
Why can’t the season run from late March to the middle of October?Expense. Simple as that I’d guess.
Which brings us back full circle to pro only teams and non privateers
Posted 15 hours ago
REPLY | REPORT
H1ghland3r
Free Member
Why can’t the season run from late March to the middle of October?I just don’t think there is enough money in the sport to support a 12+ race season, with travel, equipment costs etc. I’d be surprised if more than 1-2 teams had the ability to race all the events.
At the moment I agree. But 6 races a year is not going to get the out of industry sponsors needed so they need more races. Bike companies have been making a fair bit over the last few years. They need to put their hands deeper and TV rights need to contribute to those travel costs.
I'm not talking about doing 20 a year from the current 6 but a gradual build up. Say 10 next year and 15 in 5 years time.
Hence they need to make a more marketable product and streamlining it.
The sport needs a bit of a shake up. Been at the same level for way too long. It may still not work but something has to change so this will hopefully be positive...
People keep repeating "6 races a year".
There's 9 this year. 8 rounds of the world cup then the world champs in Les Gets. Just like there was pre Covid.
Maybe this is what the UCI are looking to do with this new deal? Farm it out wholesale to an organisation that can manage the whole shebang and build it up. A shame they've gone with a complete unknown (to the sport) who isn't saying much to anyone but there is a slim chance that this may be the turning point for DH on TV and may take us back to the days of the Grundigs on Eurosport.
Won't happen behind a pay wall mind - not for 6 8 +1 races a year.
A shame they’ve gone with a complete unknown (to the sport) who isn’t saying much to anyone
Discovery have got the broadcast rights and the ESO (Chris Ball of EWS fame, and former UCI technical delegate for DH) is actually organising the races.
So there is substantial experience in MTB events there, but it raises other concerns re. communication and commercialisation.
This does actually happen at World Champs though. Countries with no real DH riders are invited to send whichever cyclists they have and you get people who could never, ever qualify for a WC let loose on track. You see people in their national jerseys tripod-ing down the steep bits and dismounting to walk around drops.
Yeah you're right, I forgot about that bit. I was under the impression you still needed results to qualify but obviously not.
Maybe, rather than feeling sorry for someone who wasn’t good enough to beat a woman who has been out of racing for nearly 3 years with what could have been a career ending injury, having a child & just riding for fun, you could be positive about one of the best riders the UK has managed to churn out, male or female, in any discipline?
Indeed, hardly trained, still dealing with a baby that won't sleep and still managed 6th on a track that isn't home ground. Sorry but with a result like that she clearly deserved the place. I'd like to think that's the sort of thing that would encourage more women and girls not to give up on sport, this is the way it should be. Yes she is fortunate that she had a factory place but it just goes to prove that people can still remain competitive after prolonged absences and should be allowed to return in this way.
There's an inevitable packaging the sport for broadcast thing that needs to happen when interest hits a certain level. The advantage DH has is it that it delivers back to back action; riders leaving the start hut at 30s intervals and tension in the hot seat means there's a good constant 'spectacle' from a broadcaster/streamer's perspective. arguably better for live broadcast than Enduro because Mens/Womens finals fit nicely into times slots, where other events either need lots more time to cover, or a lot of effort to edit down as highlights.
You have to consider the wider picture too, Covid has helped grow general interest in MTBing. Downhill as a sport to watch, while not necessarily something every viewer is going to take up, will definitely draw a good chunk of those new MTB participants in to watch. So the value of the rights has probably grown past the point that Redbull can afford to keep it and stream it free of charge.
This was always a possibility, I'd be interested to see if a deal is done by Discovery for DH to appear via GCN/GMBN/Eurosport either live and/or as highlights, I think it could work for them in terms of pulling in more ad revenues. But you only buy the rights to a sport if you think you can make ad money from it...
The Rider's unionising is an interesting adjacent point.
The thing that's come across in a lot of the interviews so far this week is that most of them don't really know what's happening in 2023 yet, just that some sort of change is on the way, the main goals for them in terms of having a union would seem to be around having a voice over safety issues and clearer communication about the events/season so that can all plan and organise their calendars, that's not an unreasonable ask the sport needs the talent and the talent need to be able to structure their time for the next 12 months.
In terms of who can join this Union, I guess it would be anyone with enough UCI points to enter a world cup. So not just World Cup finals qualifiers, but any privateer or national level racer that's clocked up 40 accredited points in the last 12 months, as well as 'protected' racers, they would all have the option to join and be represented(?) - this is all wild speculation of course, but it doesn't seem crazy (IMO) people competing towards the sharp end would get a voice in relation to a handful of international level events.
It could well be the case that any event organisation and safety practices that are adopted through the efforts of unionised Pro's/Fast privateers at world Cup level, then filter down (Via the UCI) to national bodies and end up benefitting the grass roots in the longer run.
The UCI have obviously looked at EWS and twigged that maybe DH event organisation is a service they can just buy in rather than have to do it themselves, lets be honest they much prefer focussing on Road and Track cycling (so could XCO be farmed out next?) but as the international body for all competitive cycling they have an obligation to put organisation in place.
Initial Comm's have been lacking, but they're still probably agreeing stuff/negotiating, who knows?
I know they have Chris Ball to organise and that does give some comfort but the UCI are lording it over the "talent" by telling them nothing and Discovery have no form for covering DH (or even MTB) that I can see. Saying that they have done great things for track cycling coverage doesn't give me any confidence they're not going to royally **** this up.
Happy to be proven wrong but it's not an auspicious or confidence inspiring start.
...Discovery have no form that covering DH (or even MTB) that I can see. Saying that they have done great things for track cycling coverage doesn’t give me any confidence they’re not going to royally **** this up.
Happy to be proven wrong but it’s not an auspicious start.
It's just a sport and they're a broadcaster, clearly they think they can make it work and worth their while. Odds are they will hire in the same production team(s) currently doing the live stream footage, unless they are actually RB staff (?)...
But I would guess that Discovery want a fair bit for their money too from a say in the number of rounds, to some having control over who's logo is on screen at any given moment, maybe even wanting to put pauses into the racing to allow adverts to roll if it's being broadcast? That's the kind of concession some US sports broadcasters get.
I think we have some Discovery channels included (Virgin media), but how accessible Live DH will be going forwards is an interesting question. And who would pay to view it having watched it free for about a decade? Vs edited highlights 24hrs or more later? It's a format that suits live broadcast/streaming best, but is enough interest there for people to pay to watch it live?
Dunno I think we've been spoiled for a good long while...
And who would pay to view it having watched it free for about a decade?
Sure, i'll pay... it depends how much of course... £10 a month, yeah.... £20 i'll start grumbling though.
But I would guess that Discovery want a fair bit for their money too from a say in the number of rounds, to some having control over who’s logo is on screen at any given moment, maybe even wanting to put pauses into the racing to allow adverts to roll if it’s being broadcast? That’s the kind of concession some US sports broadcasters get.
Ugh. Anyone else think of this when they read that?
Very valid to suggest @cookeaa that RB may have found their limit with it. I don't doubt that they have the resources to do it but there's no add revenue in it for them (I only ever see adverts for other RB programmes) and I doubt they have the will to bankrole the whole thing. They do tend to focus on minority sports and with the UCI lumping a lot of cycling activities together this would become unattractive. (not many RB helmets on the road/track)
And who would pay to view it having watched it free for about a decade?
Good question. As I said previously, it's not necessarily just a case of subscribing to something, you could be talking about a TV licence on top of that plus the rest of the base package if it's a cable/satellite deal. That's a hell of a lot of money I won't be paying.
weeksy
And who would pay to view it having watched it free for about a decade?
Sure, I’ll pay… it depends how much of course… £10 a month, yeah…. £20 I’ll start grumbling though.
I'll happily pay so long as it's only an amount that is representative for DH. I don't want access to an other of their sports or programming. I realise that's unrealistic and it's one (large) size fits all so I can't see me watching it live any more which will be a real shame.
With regard to the riders Union, Cathro was talking about it on the pink bike podcast after Lenzerheide (I think) and he said that membership was currently limited to the top 30 men and top 15 women (Can't remember how many juniors)
I’d imagine coverage will follow the same model as their road cycling coverage, so ad supported coverage on Eurosport alongside gated content on the app/website like GCN Plus.
If they improve EWS coverage and bundle that into a mountain bike package with DH and XC, I’d pay for it like I do GCN Plus.
Well I just had a quick look and we've got 'Discovery History' and 'Discovery 1'...
Discovery 1's Saturday morning schedule? Back to back episodes (like 3 hours worth) of "Treehouse masters"... Now I like a good Treehouse but three hours? Nah.
They've definitely got some gaps to fill in their schedule. Probably not a bad buy from Discovery's POV.
Oh hang on, its +1. Jesus they're paying to broadcast this crap twice...
I just watched an ad break that was a full 3min infomercial for a JML desk fan, a couple of discovery documentary promos an then back to the Treehouses...
They REALLY need the content.
With regard to the riders Union, Cathro was talking about it on the pink bike podcast after Lenzerheide (I think) and he said that membership was currently limited to the top 30 men and top 15 women
Yes and I think I saw this elsewhere too.
Seems a bit shit considering how deep the field is now in the men's.
Won't the top 30 men have different priorities to the other 30 or 40 riders who are right on their tails?
Seems a bit shit considering how deep the field is now in the men’s.
I think the idea is be representative - a bit like sending the union rep into the pay negotiation rather than the entire workforce.
I think the idea is be representative – a bit like sending the union rep into the pay negotiation rather than the entire workforce.
As per my previous comment, whose interests are the top 30 riders going to represent?
Those of the top 30 riders, of course.
So when it come to rules around practice times, the possibility of the field being cut in finals etc. they won't be jumping to make things better for those below them on the timesheet.
It's like if the union reps were all from the management tiers.
"He goes down like a homesick mole!"
^ I'm going to miss random Warner comments like that next year.
whose interests are the top 30 riders going to represent?
There's nothing to stop riders from lower down the order just asking question through their rep.
Ronan Dunne has probably just secured himself a factory ride / pro contract for next year . It’s those moments that I think will be a big loss to downhill if it became a closed shop .
“He goes down like a homesick mole!”
Heard that one and loved it too!
I won the prize at home. As soon as Kerr set off.
"i bet you he tells us all about his HArdline results..."
2s later "Bernard Kerr has won......." lol...
Watching/listening yesterday, he's still just as funny to listen to as ever... I just can't see how they'll get anyone in to replace him well... but i really do hope to be proven wrong. Assuming the person they get in knows about Warner... they're going to be very daunted by the proposition of taking over from him !
Another one from yesterday 😂
'he's as busy as a wasp at a picnic'
