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20mph, on your own, and barely break a sweat? How long for, what terrain, and what drugs you taking?
Yep, there are loads of people out there who can do that. I don't class myself as anything more than a half-decent rider by any stretch (3rd cat road, reasonable Master at XC, can knock out a decent TT when required, gets the odd result at 'cross) but 20mph on a flat road costs me about 220W. I can hold 330+ for an hour when I'm fit. I live in the Peaks and can do a 40 mile loop at 21 mph if I put some effort in and it's not mega windy.
And in the grand scheme of things, I'm utterly rubbish. Off the top of my head I can think of 30 or 40 guys within a 20 mile radius of my house who could destroy me on a road ride. Strava results mean nothing whatsoever, being in the top 10 or 20 of a segment doesn't mean you're fast.
On that ride I would have averaged 20mph if I could have saved 1m30s. I have to say I did probably spend that at traffic lights, so maybe that would be a 20mph average sort of effort. But I was on the bloody rivet most of the time!
Or build a bigger base?
Whether or not you need to build base depends on where you currently are, what kind of riding you've been doing, and I think your genetic make-up. When I did lots of z2 I slowed down - I was able to ride fairly quickly at a decent pace but I lost the ability to properly put the hammers down. I'm a natural sprinter, so that's what I use to get speed on mtb courses. Play to your strengths, but also fix your weaknesses as best you can.
For example if you look at our local 25 mile time trial results, not one rider averaged less than 20 mph.
Have you got a map of that course?
20mph on a flat road costs me about 220W
Yes, that will be more or less the same for everyone, tha'ts what we are all saying, but AVERAGE SPEED means the time elapsed from start to finish divided by the distance. If you are doing 20mph on the flat with no wind then you are NOT averaging 20mph for your whole ride!
Big +1 for everything LS says 🙂
Yes, that will be more or less the same for everyone,
I think the point is that for some people 220W is a lot of power (compared to their FTP for example) and for others it isn't.
20mph solo on a road bike is not guff- I'd say it was average for anyone riiding and pushing themselves regularly.
20mph solo is perfectly achievable. But it is not the norm.
Your own skewed view of what is normal will bias your judgement here somewhat. Popular as cycling clubs are, they are still a vast minority amongst the general cycling public. Whilst I know my 30min 10m TT (in baggies and on my normal road bike, all I had to hand at the last minute) is pathetic compared to some (it was a hilly route in my defense), compared to the vast majority of joe public riding bikes, it was positively rapid!
Plenty of people I ride with regularly all think I'm actually quite a quick rider, and these are all people with more than average levels of fitness that ride regularly themselves...
Yes, that will be more or less the same for everyone, tha'ts what we are all saying, but AVERAGE SPEED means the time elapsed from start to finish divided by the distance. If you are doing 20mph on the flat with no wind then you are NOT averaging 20mph for your whole ride!
Yes but he said he can average 330watts for an hour and yet 20mph only costs him 220
Yes, that will be more or less the same for everyone, tha'ts what we are all saying, but AVERAGE SPEED means the time elapsed from start to finish divided by the distance. If you are doing 20mph on the flat with no wind then you are NOT averaging 20mph for your whole ride!
I used that figure versus my threshold to demonstrate the fact that I'm not trying [i]that[/i] hard in order to do 20mph, and more importantly that neither will a lot of people. I know full well that what you can tap along at doesn't equate to your average.
I don't class myself as anything more than a half-decent rider by any stretch (3rd cat road, reasonable Master at XC, can knock out a decent TT when required, gets the odd result at 'cross)
Look at that in the grand scheme of things, then re-assess your skewed view on normality and what a "half-decent fitness" level is.
You're in the top 0.1% of the general public that cycles. Probably inside the top 1% of people that cycle regularly (ie. more than once a week, or enough to call it a hobby/interest at least). Your standards are vastly higher than [i]"average."[/i]
220W at 20mph is going to be pretty similar for everyone, since our wind and rolling resistance are fairly similar. I can certainly do the same as you there.
But as I just showed, there's a lot of variables. Just hitting the lights badly on that route I just did cost me almost 0.5mph. If you live out in the sticks and can do long country roads without towns, then you have a far better chance of beating 20mph.
20mph solo is perfectly achievable. But it is not the norm.Your own skewed view of what is normal will bias your judgement here somewhat. Popular as cycling clubs are, they are still a vast minority amongst the general cycling public. Whilst I know my 30min 10m TT (in baggies and on my normal road bike, all I had to hand at the last minute) is pathetic compared to some (it was a hilly route in my defense), compared to the vast majority of joe public riding bikes, it was positively rapid!
Plenty of people I ride with regularly all think I'm actually quite a quick rider, and these are all people with more than average levels of fitness that ride regularly themselves...
I'm not in a club, don't own a road bike, don't wear Lycra and have only been cycling again for a year yet I know, locally, that 20mph average is no big deal. If I'm riding my mountainbike at a pace that winds up being 17mph average over 20-30 miles, I expect to get passed several times a week by different riders.
Look at that in the grand scheme of things, then re-assess your skewed view on normality and what a "half-decent fitness" level is.You're in the top 0.1% of the general public that cycles. Probably inside the top 1% of people that cycle regularly (ie. more than once a week, or enough to call it a hobby/interest at least). Your standards are vastly higher than "average."
In the grand scheme of things Chris Froome is better than me by the same amount that I'm better than a once-a-week cyclist, so I reckon my analysis ain't far off.
TT times are no guide to normal riding speeds. Unless you are some oddball who spends all ride on pretty much one road while cycling in askinsuit, on tribars and at max effort.
220W at 20mph is going to be pretty similar for everyone, since our wind and rolling resistance are fairly similar. I can certainly do the same as you there.But as I just showed, there's a lot of variables. Just hitting the lights badly on that route I just did cost me almost 0.5mph. If you live out in the sticks and can do long country roads without towns, then you have a far better chance of beating 20mph.
The point being that for a lot of people, it isn't difficult or a stretch to put out that power. So to average 20mph isn't a stretch for them either, even accounting for periods where more power is required, as they aren't operating anywhere near their limit.
Molgrips- people know how to measure their average speed (read the number of your speedo at the end of a ride 😉 )
My fav TT lap I use has five t junctions and loads of traffic calming islands but has bugger all impact on my times with a bit of forward obs (rarely if ever have to unclip).
When we say 20mph av is no big deal, we mean just that....
Dragon, all a TT is is a set, timed route. Obviously there's proper ones and ones you make up yourself.
I don't class myself as anything more than a half-decent rider by any stretch
Yeah but that is because you compare yourself to faster guys, we all do. If we looked at the general population we are all supermen. You are still much faster than the average club rider. Most club riders do not even race so you look at the subset that do, and you are still above average.
I totally see where LS is coming from. Most of the guys I ride and race with are rapid so you're constantly comparing yourself against them.
Anyway I think most people will often downplay how good they are.
wow, skimming through this i've realised i live in a hilly place!
i did a pretty civilised 27 miles with a mate yesterday, chatting etc
15mph average speed but 2900 feet of climbing! we didnt go looking for hills either!
Pretty much any direction you go for a ten mile loop involves at least 1200 feet of uphill gurning.
suddenly the 18 - 20 mph average speeds dont seem so far away!
that said, there are some bloody quick/fit people hee abouts so i know my place!
So having read through much of this thread and looking up "Sweetspot" training (new to me) it seems to me that avg speed isn't necessarily much of an indicator, there are too many other variables.
Average Power would be a better measure or failing that (i.e not having a power meter), time spent in different HR zones?
it all seems to correlate with my rather simplistic idea of regularly "Stressing" your body on rides, admittedly not really a structured approach...
So if someone says they "average 20 mph" then the real question is:
"how much of that is spent climbing?"
"What sort of HR zones are you operating in and for how long?"
"What is your avg power output?"
If you happen to know any of this stuff off the top of your head you are probably more serious about training than I am TBH.
Avg speed is an easy one to look at and feel warm and fuzzy about I suppose...
Useful thread, cheers all.
it all seems to correlate with my rather simplistic idea of regularly "Stressing" your body on rides, admittedly not really a structured approach...
riding more and riding hard is my training plan, and that should be good enough for most. leave the structured training to the 20mph+ boys.
So if someone says they "average 20 mph" then the real question is:
It's all about power. Won't be long before you're charting FTP, NP, TSS and IF 🙂
riding more and riding hard is my training plan, and that should be good enough for most. leave the structured training to the 20mph+ boys.
Suppose it's all about personal aspirations really. Most of us just want to be fit enough to enjoy our riding. Some of us want to improve our TT times. Others want to win races or move up a category. You do what you can with the training/life balance that you want or can manage. I doubt any of us has an aspiration to average X mph on road rides though!
It's funny actually, i mean i do enjoy a bit of strava competition with myself and my mates but i really just enjoy riding my bike, road or mtb. i enjoy feeling like i've pushed myself a little when i get home, be that up a climb or staying off the brakes that little bit longer on the downs.
The idea of actually "training" with hrm or cadence monitors, wattage, special diets and going riding in a specific way to get a better time is where i start to lose a bit of interest. I guess it seems like the fun starts to go and it all gets a bit too serious.
I've never found the idea of the gym appeals much either for similar reasons.
i guess i came to cycling only recently from a youth skating and a big surfing habit (which i still have) both sports where there is no "training" no advice on diet in the media, you just go do it, have fun, maybe get better and get fitter as a useful by product.
Life is stressful enough, we can all do with as much fun in our lives as we can shoe-horn in around the necessary things of modern life.
[i]all a TT is is a set, timed route.[/i]
A TT is a set route timed by [b]somebody else[/b]. There will be somebody a minute in front who you are trying to catch, and somebody a minute behind who you are trying to avoid being caught by.
You will ride a lot faster than if you do the same route on your own. (Although maybe Strava might compensate in someway, I wouldn't know)
of course it's also possible that i'm a lazy slacker at heart without the necessary self discipline for serious sport! 😆
Avg speed is an easy one to look at and feel warm and fuzzy about I suppose...
its an easy way to monitor your own performance and improvements, regardless of other peoples averages. As I said earlier when I came back to road riding I set 18mph average as a goal on the grounds thats the speed to 'qualify' for our local club "A" group, and my initial local loops were 20 miles. On my last 2 rides with my Garmin I've averaged 19.5 (solo, 30 mile loop) and 20mph (2-up, 65 mile loop), and anything less than 30 miles isnt worth getting kitted up for. Whether that makes me lycra clad riding god or a mediocre MAMIL compared to the Strava masses is irrelevant, I have an objective measure of my own improvement in speed and endurance, and I get to do something I enjoy, comfortably and for longer.
i enjoy feeling like i've pushed myself a little when i get home,
Thats pretty much my 'training' criteria, so its been interesting reading on here where my riding sits in the scheme of formal training. Most of my riding seems to be threshold/tempo/sweetspot, but I attack climbs which is interval/over-threshold stuff. Seems I am inadvertently doing something right?!
The point being that for a lot of people, it isn't difficult or a stretch to put out that power. So to average 20mph isn't a stretch for them either
Fine, but once you factor in traffic lights, steep hills, tight country lanes etc your mean speed will be much lower than 20mph, so to compensate you have to go a LOT faster when you are riding, which is much harder. If you had a flat or gently undulating course with no junctions, traffic lights or tight bends, then yes a 20mph average would not be a problem.
Your 220W figure is reasonable for 20mph, and I used to be able to average 220W for five hours - that's the average power recorded on powertap, which meant consttant pedalling at that power, even when going downhill or stopping. I never got above about 18.5mph average speed though. I could still probably average 220W for 3 hours but round here that would NOT get you a 20mph average speed.
So if someone says they "average 20 mph" then the real question is:
"how much of that is spent climbing?"
It's not just about the climbing, it's about how steep it all is. I can average 20mph up gentle gradients for ages, and reap the benefits on the other side at 26mph, but on a country lane I might find a really steep hill that has me down to 8mph say and the other side is steep, narrow and windy so I am on the brakes a lot doing 15mph. But both routes could have the same amount of climbing.
You will ride a lot faster than if you do the same route on your own.
I don't find this. Especially not with a power meter. I pick a power I think is going to be a stretch, and I re-evaluate that target as I go, increasing it if I'm finding it easy. If that lets me catch the guy in front then fine, if not then he was just faster. And couple that with the fact that you might still beat him even if you don't catch him, it just doesn't get me going.
MTB racing is different, the short sharp climbs I like involve a flat out sprint, and those can be done harder given more focus on the race. Plus there's the singletrack and descents, where you take risks and push the boundaries of control and technique. Far more fun for me!
But I guess that's why we have different events, because they suit us differently. Froome vs Wiggo in the Tour is the obvious example.
I could still probably average 220W for 3 hours but round here that would NOT get you a 20mph average speed.
Power to weight maybe the issue 😉
For the training I generally work on the assumption that if I get back and don't feel like spewing I've just wasted my time, don't really go in for the low speed, low HR stuff. Works for me but everyone is different.
I'm terrible at getting obsessed with average speed though, been trying to achieve a certain average speed on my commute for a while now and finally cracked it this morning which I was pretty chuffed with. At the end of the day if you're training you need to set specific attainable goals and average speed is good for this.
That's if I'm not a lying Stravaist who needs to get out and race of course.
Here's mine from my local ride today starting from Bethesda, Myndd Llandygai, Llanberis, Pen Y Pass, Capel Curig and back to Bethesda. I pushed slightly harder than usual as I've been out of town for the weekend eating cake and other niceties.
Distance: 31.44 mi
Time: 1:43:37
Avg Speed: 18.2 mph
Elevation Gain: 2,155 ft
Calories: 1,996 C
Time: 1:43:37
Moving Time: 1:43:34
Elapsed Time: 1:43:37
Avg Speed: 18.2 mph
Avg Moving Speed: 18.2 mph
Max Speed: 39.3 mph
Elevation Gain: 2,155 ft
Elevation Loss: 2,108 ft
Min Elevation: 340 ft
Max Elevation: 1,323 ft
Would be very interested to know best ways of getting overall average speed up although I'm way off from 20!
You need both base training and speed work. How much of each depends on a number of factors. Simply flogging your guts out on every ride is not as effective as doing it properly. A constant zone 2 pace is pretty easy at first, five hours later it is pretty tough.
It's also important to maximise available training time whilst still enjoying a bit of normal riding. Working Mon-Fri then half day every other Saturday, 3 kids and a Mrs that works a few nights a week limits the available time somewhat haha!
Like I said, works for me, def improving and feel like I'm achieving stuff when I ride. You could lend me a few hours out of your day if you wanted though 😉
Ha, thanks both. I work from home a lot so do get to choose my own hours which does help with the riding. Clearly lots to learn about training rather than just riding. I guess I'm of the 2012 class as I've had the road bike for a year, but seem to be enjoying it more and more (without any less mtb-ing). Not sure I'm going to do 5hrs in the saddle on the roadie but will definitely work on sprints. 🙂
Would be very interested to know best ways of getting overall average speed up although I'm way off from 20!
that's because you have some bloody big hills on that route !!!!
Meeehhhh.
I've managed to cycle between, and play a full round with a partner at, 9 different crazy golf courses in 8 hours. (And that was on a singlespeed MTB.)
Anyone else average more than 1.1 cgc/h?
Power to weight maybe the issue
What do you weigh? At 70kg 220w sure as **** won't get me a 20mph average! More like 270w+
I've managed to cycle between, and play a full round with a partner at, 9 different crazy golf courses in 8 hours. (And that was on a singlespeed MTB.)
Where in the name of all that's holy are there 9 crazy golf courses within cycling distance of one another?
I've managed to cycle between, and play a full round with a partner at, 9 different crazy golf courses in 8 hours. (And that was on a singlespeed MTB.)
muppetWrangler wins!!!!
show off 🙄
Ive 10 miles in 22:35 on a road bike on a crappy 265w
"[i]Where in the name of all that's holy are there 9 crazy golf courses within cycling distance of one another?[/i]"
Isle of Wight. With a road bike you could get a couple more knocked off in that time, too, I think 🙂
I can barely average 15 mph on a good day 😥 someone please tell me its cos I live in the south Wales valleys,and not cos I'm a fat old knacker
Aside from my individual stats, racing tends to be as follows. Duration is normally an hour.
Cat 4 : 24-25 mph
Masters E1234 26.8 mph (not yet broken the 27, but creeping up).
I finish in the top third in both, but can't do much work on the front in the Masters races. Come down to Hillingdon if you fancy a go. And Cat 4 in London is very competitive. I'll be there forever, I think!
Ride London, my average of 21.5mph and my only TT time for a 25mi was pretyy much identical. I ride our medium/fast club run, and can just about hold on with the fast group for a 24mph average, then I get dropped at about 15 miles.
Traffic conditions probably determine whether an average will be over or under 20 where I live.
I would love some road racing, I think it's all too far away for me to get to though.
here is my ride from sunday just gone. 20mph although technically its lower as I needed to stop for a pee.
http://www.strava.com/activities/75592611
Not particularly hilly but even so ook just how fast I had to go on the flat sections to maintain a decent av.
Well that's pretty quick Matt!
I don't know why folk are hung up so much about averages, it's so random it's meaningless.
For instance I was talking after my race with an old boy, when he is in florida training his averages are over 20 mph. Yet in a race like last nights he'll get dropped quick sticks.
Another fella I knew rode with Competative-cyclist proteam, won the opening stage of The Rutas De Americas yet only averages about 20mph on hard rides.
It matters when you've just got home having done 19.9 and you took it easy at the start! 😉