Forum menu
I rode with a guy who had the Dogma. He was no faster than me on my Bianchi. His was £5000 mine was £1500 in the wiggle sale. Both (Dogma and the Sempre) have been used by pro's in GT's.
Its not about the bike...
*shrugs*
'spoon - a bloke in the club I ride with has one of those, looks really nice in the flesh.
I've got a DeVinci SL, previous years model to the one you are looking at. I got it second hand off here. I think I can see why it has got a life time warranty, it is very well made. Looks bomb proof.
The ride is stiff but not what I'd call harsh. It is very well balanced, i.e not softer at the front than the back. So far I am very pleased with it.
Geometry first, tube profiles second, material third.
This. Although I think it was me who posted it first last time 😉
Anyway, I had a beautiful titanium bling machine. Always wanted titanium and loved it. There was a pride of ownership and it drew admiring comments from passers by. Then it was "borrowed" and I have given a lot of consideration to its replacement.
Steel? Another titanium or Carbon? Do you yearn for a 953 frame? Shiny stainless steel - I think it's the new titanium, personally, and if it's your thing, then nothing else will suffice. Or do you want "performance" and light weight. If weight is everything, then carbon is your answer, but geometry really matters. I get the feeling you aren't really sure what you want, as from that selection you've provided, you'd already know. It's not a bargain if it's the wrong frame for you.
So what did I choose in your position? Well after a lot of thought (Pegoretti for steel, Moots for Ti) and some racing on a 2007 Aluxx SL Giant TCR, I've plumped for.... a Giant Defy Advanced SL. My neck is telling me that comfort is required for rides over a couple of hours (whiplash injury), and having ridden the Defy, it just clicked. Statements can wait...
... I'd still like a Pegoretti Responsorium, eventually.
Why not give the condor super aciao a go steel frame with amazing ride if the normal aciao is anything to go by,approx £1300 weighs 1.1kg. Condor leggero - impressive pedigree - as a carbon alternative.
Personally i would get a decent frame for under 2k and invest more in my drive chain.
Why not give the condor super aciao a go steel frame with amazing ride if the normal aciao is anything to go by,approx £1300 weighs 1.1kg.
I looked at the Condor Acciao when I bought originally bought the Genesis. They are lovely and I like the fact that they are hand crafted in Italy. But even the Super Accia is 1.8kg, which is pretty much what my Genesis weighs (unless that figure is for frame and fork?)
There have been some great questions asked of me, which really help my thinking. I'm not looking for a race bike so much as I'm looking for something to enjoy riding and owning. Comfort is key but so is stiffness and resiliance.
I really don't get how people can be so picky about things like a one degree change in seat angle. Can anyone really tell?! How much is placebo?!
I have no idea on the angles of any of my bikes. I've made the two road bikes feel as similar as possible, they're still not quite there, and every time I swap I think 'this feels a bit odd', then I get used to it after about an hour. Happily ridden thousands of miles in comfort on each!
I'd have the carbon one. Can't really comprehend paying more for inferior performance. Clearly plenty of folk can, and that very performance is subjective.
I have no idea on the angles of any of my bikes
every time I swap I think 'this feels a bit odd'
Best get your protractor out then 😉
I can tell the difference in a degree on my trail bike, no idea on a road bike but I'd assume its the same. Maybe it's down to how sensitive you are to setup, or maybe it's thinking far too much 🙂
I'm going down the same route of buying a new road bike now, and have decided to go with a sensible choice of comfort over style. I'm not going to be racing in the TdF, so I might as well lose those 10 seconds and enjoy the ride more.
Best get your protractor out then
Not when taken in the context of the second bit - they're both comfy, I have no preference.
I'm particularly immune to set up changes I'd say. No idea what pressure's in my suspension, never fiddled with any of the damping settings, they're just about right. Have gradually played around with stem height on the road bike, it's now 20mm lower than it was as I noticed no detrimental effects to comfort or power, and it's more aero, so faster.
I really don't get how people can be so picky about things like a one degree change in seat angle. Can anyone really tell?! How much is placebo?!
+1... In fact +1 for all that! Some people think that over-analysing and stressing over minute changes somehow makes them better cyclists.
I ride a Giant TCR M/L (supposedly a 53.5cm), a Cervélo R5 56cm and a Dolan Prefissio 60cm. They're all COMPLETELY different sizes, but if you line them up side-by-side, the contact points are all within 10mm of each other.
That 10mm is generally forgotten by the end of my road... 😉
"[i]I really don't get how people can be so picky about things like a one degree change in seat angle. Can anyone really tell?![/i]"
My personal reason for being picky is that the position I settle into is on the limit of saddle adjustment on the limit of readily available seatpost layback on the limit of readily available frame geometry. So whilst most people can adjust out a degree with no trouble, I can't do so without changing my riding position (which I've tried, simply because I'd like to make my frame choice a lot easier, but whether it's for physiological or psychological reasons I don't want to take that route). A degree on seat angle would push my saddle about 20mm forward, which - to me - is too much.
bingo 🙂or maybe it's thinking far too much
What frame size are you riding? Have you thought about going up a size?
Seat tube angle is largely irrelevant - it's the top-tube length that matters.
I'm on a 63cm. There is no size to go up to 🙂 ...It fits me like a glove, but I am right on its limit of adjustment as far as the seat position is concerned. With a custom frame I'd have a slacker angle simply to stop the saddle and seatpost head gradually eating each other away.
"[i]Seat tube angle is largely irrelevant - it's the top-tube length that matters.[/i]"
Doesn't that contradict what you were saying earlier? - ie that frame dimensions aren't terribly important [i]provided[/i] you can adjust the seat and bars such that the seat/bars/BB relationship is correct. Reach is relatively easy to adjust with stem length: it's rare that a road bike TT is so long that you need a 5cm stem or so short that a 15cm isn't enough. In that context of being able to keep the bars correctly positioned relative to the seat and BB, TT length really only affects the position of the front wheel relative to everything else, ie the wheelbase and weight distribution (and toe clearance in some cases).
Likewise, seat tube angle is indeed largely irrelevant if you're in a size/position range where it's largely irrelevant - ie where seat angle is just affecting the point where your seatpost contacts your saddle rails. If you're not in that range then a different seat angle starts putting your seatpost clamp somewhere your saddle can't get to (without changing the relationship between the three contact points).
Having owned carbon and steel roadbikes; I'd defo be going Ti for my next frame...no brainer for me.
EDIT: There is Ti and there is cheap, radio-active Ti !!! Would I lie to you?
EDIT01: Okay, perhaps a little OTT, but recycled eastern block (if you by-pass the tangential pun) military hardware Ti nonetheless!
Venge or the new PX N2A. Soooo nice!
I have an Enigma Extensor. When I bought it, I test rode a Ti Enigma first, then the xCR Extensor, it was like getting out of a Ford Focus & getting into a Ferrari. The xCR frame is a fantastic ride, very fast and very comfortable. If you can get yourself to Enigma or one of their dealers, try one first.
Air cooled that's exciting to hear. I'm off to them in Thursday morning to see what fitting I am and test ride what they have. 😀 I am not sure if they will have the extensor or not but I my heart is screaming that that's the bike I want.
If you have time I'd really appreciate hearing more about your thoughts and experiences. Oh and pictures would be great.
"I really don't get how people can be so picky about things like a one degree change in seat angle. Can anyone really tell?!"
Seat angle probably not, although if a frame was a degree steeper you'd lose a cm off the top tube (60cm x 1deg = aproximately 1cm). So it's probably more to do with TT length, slacken it iff by a degree and your 56cm frame 9assuming its equal TT and ST) will fit more like a 55, making it more relaxed/upright.
Head angle and chainstay length probably more noticable in handling. I can tell the difference, but as you said, it doesn't take long to get used to it, and things like frame stiffness play a part too (frames twist a lot more than 1deg in a corner).
I've always had the philosophy that a designer somewhere has done the best they can to meet their brief, and there's more than one way to crack an egg. So just becasue bike-x isn't as steep as bike-y, doesnt make one worse overall, but to each designer they probably tried the opposite bike and decided it was inferior in some way.
geetee, YGM
Shibboleth - Member
What frame size are you riding? Have you thought about going up a size?
Seat tube angle is largely irrelevant - it's the top-tube length that matters.
Not really, one determines the other. Two frames could have exactly the same "reach" yet one could have a much shorter top tube if the seat angle is very steep.
I think most lengths/angles and whatnot are fairly relevant when it comes to fitting a road bike?
Everyone probably has an ideal saddle position relative to the BB. Obviously if you want to run 30mm of saddle setback, you won't want a Lemond esque frame with a super slack seat tube.