the comments about consistent / reliable braking power are apt - its why we use disc brakes on mountain bikes
my comments about the Shimano hydraulic disc brakes on the 2nd Giant I rode were that i found it uncontrollable as there a minimal amount of modulation
this is not a criticism of using a hydraulic disc brake on a road bike, but its something a good number of riders have noticed with Shimano hydraulic disc brakes; almost too much 'power' and not enough 'modulation'
Guess its one of those things you get used to, but lightly touching that front brake and having it lift the rear wheel off the ground, with a judder felt through the fork and bars was quite unnerving
Trp(tektro) have it quite sorted on lever/hood feel etc with the hylex I run them on my ss cx and they are mint !!
Maybe traditionalists won't let it happen and we'll stick with hydraulic levers emulating cable ones by having lots of free-play baofr the bite point near the bars
How do you set your road bike up? The bite point on my road bikes is about 5mm of movement. If it gets anywhere near the bars before the bite I've made some sort of horrible mistake somewhere.
[i]Road levers are pretty much unchanged since the days when it took all 4 fingers to stop! [/i]
I did a 4 hour ride in the rain, some of it very heavy, yesterday morning. Dura Ace 9000 cable/rim brakes did me fine, with roads sometimes flooded as high as the BB. But for a particular bike I have in mind, I will be obtaining hydro brake levers, for cable mechs.
[i]will be keen to minimize/remove any cross compatibility between MTB and Road brakes and wheelsets...
They've got form for doing that sort of thing...[/i]
Aye, I wouldn't be surprized, however, there are a significant number of frames and bikes out there already set to the MTB hydro brake mountings.
Disc brakes on road bikes are here to stay. Everybody on STW must be running disc brakes off road, so what's not to like? I could understand the question on a road orientated site where people are basing their opinions on heresay without having used disc brakes.
You can always wait or the next iteration of any technology, but my advice would be jump in now. There are enough decent bikes now emerging that make it a no brainer. Mounts might change, but they might not. Just because SHimano offer it, it might not be adapted. Not everything they do turns to gold.
Even mechanical disc brakes when well set up are a huge improvement over rim brakes for the riding that most of us do.
Sure they are a bit heavier, less aero etc, but the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. In 5 years, we will wonder what all the fuss was about.
Nemesis, I sold my race frame and took a year out of racing to do other things i.e. my audax SR. Suddenly its all change. I'm very interested in seeing Campagnolos take on discs.
I'm very interested in seeing Campagnolos take on discs
Campag must be sh!itting themselves over road discs. If it does take off then they could find themselves in a very dark place.
I suspect that Campag aren't in a very good place as a company - they're tiny compared to SRAM and Shimano and just don't have the budget to keep up I reckon. Having to develop discs (which they have no mtb background in to call on) on top of electronic shifting is going to cause them headaches in funding.
How do you set your road bike up? The bite point on my road bikes is about 5mm of movement. If it gets anywhere near the bars before the bite I've made some sort of horrible mistake somewhere.
The opposite, my bite point's set so that there's just enough cable pull to stop in a hurry with the levers not quite at the bar, they're well over half way through their pull before the pads get to the rim. Felt funny at first but it's much more controllable than having fingertips/hands stretched over the bar and levers as your hand stays as more of a fist with more grip on both the bar and lever, and less effort needed to pull the brakes.
That wasn't quite what I meant, newer brakes are significanlty better than those for 20 years ago, but the lever's are still the same. On my old bike I brake with 2-3 fingers near the tip, on my newer (DA 7800) bike all the stopping power I need is one finger about half way down the lever.I did a 4 hour ride in the rain, some of it very heavy, yesterday morning. Dura Ace 9000 cable/rim brakes did me fine, with roads sometimes flooded as high as the BB.
Look at the old brake levers form the 80's on MTB's, I'm pretty sure the ones on my first bike were adapted from a motorbike and compare that to modern 1 finger brakes from shimano that a barely more than a trigger! I'd just be supprised if road bikes didn't make a similar jump and end up with a much stubbier lever.
Campag must be sh!itting themselves over road discs. If it does take off then they could find themselves in a very dark place.
Maybe a joint effort with an Italian brake manufacturer like Formula or Grimeca?
I imagine theres a few companies that would jump at the chance to get campag's share of the market cornered with their disk brakes.
But it's a massive jump from the four finger motorbike style brakes to, say v-brakes and they have similar size levers to hydro brakes. Road caliper brakes are the equivalent of v-brakes, not four finger mtb brakes - as has been stated, given that hydrobrakes aren't massively more powerful, the lever length isn't going to change a huge amount.
Also don't forget that the most powerful mtb discs have big rotors, certainly bigger than road bikes are getting.
I suspect that Campag aren't in a very good place as a company - they're tiny compared to SRAM and Shimano and just don't have the budget to keep up I reckon. Having to develop discs (which they have no mtb background in to call on) on top of electronic shifting is going to cause them headaches in funding.
They've already done leccy shifting haven't they? EPS?
As for Campag making a disc brake? well the technical challenge for road bikes primarily comes from having to cram a master cylinder in the lever body, made even harder if there's a mechanical shifter in there too, I could well see them partnering with another (non-competing) company, in fact weren't there rumours?... Formula have wheeled Di2 and EPS compatible levers out at shows haven't they?
Anyway Campag have a reputation which they arguably place ahead of market share, and they have faithful followers, who aren't as impressed by bells and whistles, as they are by finish, shift quality and general [i]Italianess[/i]... Shimano and SRAM for the most part have "customers"...
I'd quite like to see Campag produce a mechanical disc calliper as I can imagine it being quite a pretty and well finished item and serves to extend the useful life of their current groups...
The other thing is the UCI's lack of a ruling has given campag a bit of breathing space, Pro's bikes are still using rim brakes,
They've already done leccy shifting haven't they? EPS?
They have but it's still hugely expensive (compared to Ultegra DI2) and will need developing further as Shimano did and I have heard that there have been some reliability issues.
My point really is that Campag risk falling well behind so that their market ends up just the people you mentioned which simply isn't a very big one.
or put another way, when hydro discs become commonplace Campag are in serious trouble and their already small market share will shrink to just the retro grouches 😉
Campag EPS = pain in the ass, especially compared to refinement of shimano Di2
Had a good number of customers when I worked at Sigma who went to EPS but soon sold it and went back to Super Record mechanical.
Crude and unreliable, and real pain to install and setup, like an amateur version of 1st generation dura ace Di2
Already worked on bikes with 'campag' discs co-production with formula brakes, seen on colnago c59 with EPS shifting
I've been riding discs on the roadie for about four years now. Bb7's for three of those, di2 shimano plus hydro's for the last year (and I've used the hope vtwin thing).
Pro's - they're awesome in the wet, much better modulation and certainly consistent.
Cons - there aren't that many true road frames out the that you could buy today that are 'proper' road frames. Most are gravel bikes or cross bikes and as such aren't as nice to ride as a regular road bike IMO. Wheels are a pain in the arse to source if you already have a few sets of nice ones and they're an utter bastard to set up with no rubbing. Strangely I've also warped a few rotors which I've never done on the mtb.
Colnago c60 or de rosa king with discs for me please. But not with campag...
Word on the street is that campag are all but done anyway,
I was dead against road bikes with discs. Until I rode one.
They are loads better than rim brakes. I now commute everyday on a road bike with discs in all weather and up/down a steep hill and can't see a reason to go back. Also anyone who complains about setup and lever pull is either riding a bike with very poor brakes and is themselves poor at bike maintenance.
Strangely I've also warped a few rotors which I've never done on the mtb.
My front disc seems to have warped too.. Is it heat that does it??
I've had mine a few months now. Bought mainly for commuting and winter use as there's a been a few times in the wet were I've narrowly escaped a serious crash because rim brakes simple wouldn't work. Yes in the dry discs are overkill but then again you're not scraping the surface off your expensive rims are you. Mine are bolt thru so it's pretty stiff but you can still see the fork flex under really heavy braking and the TRP pads are useless...thankfully they're Shimano compatible. Other plus points are increased tyre clearance. The 25mm Pro 4's on mine come up close to 29mm wide on the Alpha 400 rims and there's loads of clearance 🙂
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Nice ride, geordie!
If the red/ yellow/blue clash gets to you, the rim decals come off in a jiffy! - half a jiffy and in fewer pieces if you warm with a hairdryer.
My reasoning for buying a road bike without discs earlier this year was if you're an early adopter you often get something of a raw deal on ending up with what turn out to be short lived 'standards' that you can't get bits for. And given the number of non disc road bikes out there it's going to be ages before you have trouble getting hold of spares and wheels for callipers.
Plus I figure it'll take a few years for them to get really good at road discs, more so on the frame side than the brake side, so you might as well wait.
Campags offerings look good on paper, and the current stuff is so good I'll be willing to ditch my Shimano and SRAM stuff. The Chorus in my trainer is sublime.
And strange as it might seem, though undecided on road discs, when I bought my new crosser for the 2014/15 season and on I went canti.
I ride road discs, they're great, the only real issue for me is not actually with the brakes but with the forks and to some extent the frame, I think to wait until thru axles and stuff are more common would be a good idea, I don't think forks are quite stiff or beefy enough yet to give you the same confidence as mtb discs - it can be unnerving on a big descent to feel so much of the disc up through the bike as you brake hard for a corner etc
I believe discs are warping due to riding style, too much feathering leading to overheating rather than a more commited grab. This was what I'd read in some early reviews anyway, once the riders stopped using them like they were on sidepulls and went into corners later etc then it was less of an issue.
Power is an important factor IMO. With my last road bike (which was pretty heavy), I was only just about able to stop safely going down a steep hill before a road junction. I also had to scrub speed off for most of the descent, so I found myself braking all the way almost 😆 . That was tektro long drops.
Now I can brake later and harder if need be
OT I guess but I did see this come in today ref Campag Chorus EPS
http://www.shinybikes.com/groupsets/campagnolo/campagnolo-chorus-eps-groupset
The Chorus EPS is £600 more than Ultegra Di2!
The Chorus EPS is £600 more than Ultegra Di2!
The difference in RRP isn't that much (£1575 Vs £1690), and Chorus was only revealed last month, 6870 has been on the shelves over a year now so you can get it cheaper online. Having said that Shimano/SRAM prices seem to almost halve the RRP by the time they get tot he shelves (Reverb's from £300 to £150, 105 groupsets from £600 RRP to £300).
Well, with regards to rim brake options, I think I'm uniquely qualified here. I have a Defy Advanced SL with Ultegra 6700 brakes and a Propel Advanced with the Giant TRP aero V brakes.
I rode 86 miles through torrential rain, up and down a couple of hills on Sunday. Which bike did I take - the Propel with pslr-aero wheels. Why? because it is faster than the Defy and (almost) as comfortable.
Braking was not the issue in Sunday's conditions, grip was! I am not swayed by disk brakes on road bikes, even in those conditions. My aero wheels do, however, have alloy braking surfaces.
If you want a race bike, buy a Propel. I find mine to be a better bike than the Defy. Not by much and not at the beginning of a race. But after 40 very hard minutes, when I need to tuck in and put the power down to hold onto the bunch, that's when I notice it.
If you want a bike for riding up and down the Alps, get Defy SL frame and build it up. If you must have aero wheels with full carbon rims and want to ride them in the wet, then go for disk brakes (but you won't be racing it in BC events any time soon).
Since you are my size, you are welcome to try both. Drop me a line and come over for a ride.
The difference in RRP isn't that much (£1575 Vs £1690), and Chorus was only revealed last month, 6870 has been on the shelves over a year now so you can get it cheaper online. Having said that Shimano/SRAM prices seem to almost halve the RRP by the time they get tot he shelves (Reverb's from £300 to £150, 105 groupsets from £600 RRP to £300).
Yebbut Athena EPS is still £1400, and that's been available for ages.
While there's lots of people discussing road discs, does anyone fancy swapping their TRP Spyres for my as new Avid BB7S road? Cash adjustment your way. These ones:
(@Donk was comparing looks to be honest.)
Looks like most manufacturers have new models on their websites with a disc option.
Really don't want to ride 23mm tyres in winter.
Bontrager do some disc wheels now.
Ok even my hack bike has old LX discs as riding in the wet sucks.
Wonder if I can change my Caad10 fork only for a disc option as my missus will notice £2K gone for the full bike!
I popped into the Specialized Concept Store in Covent Garden on Saturday when I was down for RideLondon. Wanted to have a proper look at the S-Works Tarmac disc "module" (frame plus Roval wheels). The frame is stunning but what really puts me off is the proprietary wheels and I think that's where the industry is struggling at the moment. Everyone going their own way; a mix of thru-axles & QR, various different mounts, full hydro vs cable/hydro mix...
No doubt that full hydro discs plus electronic shifting is the way forwards. Full integration in terms of internal routing, no need to ever replace cables cos there aren't any, you just bleed the brakes.
Just wish that the big players would actually get together and decide on a standard.
Two of the new disc braked road bikes that do look very nice are the Giant Defy:
http://road.cc/content/news/126376-5-things-i-learnt-riding-new-giant-defy
and the Saracen Avro:
http://road.cc/content/news/126349-saracen-avro-disc-road-bike-launched
It'll be very interesting to see the range of disc-braked road bikes on offer at the Cycle Show in September.
Decided, just going for a complete Defy with hydros and Ultegra. Pretty sure it'll be okay to race, especially in my age group. Just adding some race wheels to the package. Spec actually shows it to be stiffer and lighter than my previous TCR Advanced?
Should be nice for weeks in the mountains and the PR sportive.
My old alloy Defy is going to be the most blinged £599 pound bike! With wheels costing double that and SRAM Red/Force mix and full Superzero carbon kit. Could race that as well I guess.
Well that is a good choice IMO. The write up it's just got over on Road.cc is really impressive.
When you get it, give us a review, ta.
Decided, just going for a complete Defy with hydros and Ultegra. Pretty sure it'll be okay to race, especially in my age group. Just adding some race wheels to the package.
Just be aware that disc brakes are currently forbidden in all road and closed circuit races at all levels.
Until the UCI says otherwise, don't expect to rock up at a race on that bike!
Tsk... who didn't read the whole thread 😆
Going to risk it crazy legs. I'm waiting to hear the LVRC's take on this. Worst comes to worst I can race the old alloy one, TBH the kit going on that should make it pretty competitive.Veloflex masters on a tin defy
Spec actually shows it to be stiffer and lighter than my previous TCR Advanced?
The Defy Advanced SL frame is the lightest frame Giant make, so yes, it will be lighter than your TCR Advanced. Nice colours too. I put pslr-aero wheels on my £400 used alloy TCR ALUXX, I thought it looked great.
But you should still ride a Propel. If only because everytime I ride mine or take it near a shop I get asked about it!
I'd. Have ordered a Propel if I was certain it was only for racing. My race bike only races with the exception of continental training rides. I'm of to a mates in Belgium i.e cobbles then next month my mates in the Pyrenees neither ideal Propel country.
Sadly its only the Pro version with the full carbon intergrated bar/stem thingy and race day wheels, possibly American Classics?
Prices on the new Defy Discs are now out: http://road.cc/content/news/126981-giant-announce-defy-disc-pricing-and-rest-2015-range-too
That Advanced SL looks great and I never thought I'd say that about a Giant!
They look lovely, I like how they're going their own way with the aesthetics, doing something different.
But even as a non-racer my natural instinct is to give the technology a while to settle down and a consensus to emerge.
Also I love how my road bike requires next to no maintenance, whereas finnicky disc brakes are one of the main culprits for MTB maintenance timesuckage.
...I love how my road bike requires next to no maintenance, whereas finnicky disc brakes are one of the main culprits for MTB maintenance timesuckage.
eh?
hang on, let me guess, you have avids?
i can't remember the last time did [i]anything[/i] to my disc brakes, even changing the pads is a twice-per-year job, and takes less than 5mins.
(i bled them about 2 years ago, but it might have been 3, and they didnt really need it)
hang on, let me guess, you have [s]Avids[/s] limited technical skills?i can't remember the last time did anything to my disc brakes, even changing the pads is a twice-per-year job, and takes about 5mins.
😉
Well I'll be more charitable but I have to say I love discs for the near total lack of maintenance, including the mechanical ones on my winter road/CX bike.
