After cycling 40 miles home from work on the Argon 18 Gallium Pro today I felt battered. It's not so much the potholes as you can avoid them, but the stretches of road where the top dressing that they apply has peeled off. I run 25c tyres at 80 psi with a carbon post, but it's just friggin unbearable.
I love the Gallium Pro and on smooth tarmac it's a cracking bike, but I feel the time has come to purchase another stead that will deal with road buzz more efficiently.
So my question is. Can anyone actually tell me whether any of the following will actually be MUCH better. Giant Defy Advanced Pro/SL, Spec Diverge/Roubaix, ..
Demoing all possible options is going to be tricky as I don't live close to a bike shop.
Thanks
Specialized with the zertz are good. But really a 28mm+ tyre makes a lot of difference
Phatter tyres and crabon fribe or Ti.
Carbon and Ti are better at damping down vibration. My Diverge is carbon, has phatter tyres, a pug-ugly vibration damping seatpost and vibration dampers in the frame. It's comfy, but still fast.
If you're doing 40 miles on a regular basis, go for comfort over speed, within reason. Your list there are all very good, fast and comfy bikes. I would also pick one that takes rack and/or mudguards for that sort of commute, but that's personal choice.
Have you tried some bigger tyres and new bar tape?
Probably cheaper than a new bike, unless you need an excuse for a new bike of course. In which case, get one of those s****y pinarellos with the soft tail.
I cannot run 28c tyres as there is not enough clearance. Frame is high end carbon, wheels are carbon and so is seat post. It's more in the saddle area than the bars.
I do like the sound of the diverge. 32c tyres + eyelets for guards. I read a google post that suggested the Roubaix is a better road buzz killer than the Diverge?
4 posts and no MTFU? really. 😐
can i therefore suggest MTFU? 😈
I read a google post that suggested the Roubaix is a better road buzz killer than the Diverge?
I've ridden both. My Diverge weighs the same as the equivalent spec Roubaix, but takes wider tyres, takes racks, has the clever extra bottle cage mount for a SWAT kit, etc, etc, etc.
In short, a Roubaix is a lovely thing. Fast, too. A Diverge can be built just as fast as a Roubaix, but then it can also do this and more;
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Unless you're racing, why ride a racing bike? Why not ride a fast, capable and comfy bike?
Arms or arse?
If arms double up to two layers of bar tape.
Arse, same shape saddle with more cushioning.
I'd try that before getting a new bike.
My SAGA magazine will be dropping through the door in a few years time so I am at an age where I am now thinking function over fashion. So bugger MTFU!4 posts and no MTFU? really.can i therefore suggest MTFU?
@CaptainFlashheart - the flexibility of the Diverge is very appealing. Can you tell me more regarding how it feels on rough road surfaces compared with a normal carbon racer?
My Kite is steel frame, carbon forks, 38c tyres and one of those hideous seatposts like CFH's Diverge.
Bloody comfortable on the road and it's not really that slow either compared to my road bike.
Get a mountain bike, and get off the tarmac. Job done.
I love my Brooks Swift, but I suspect that is not the best for absorbing vibration. It used to be fine, but now not so. I think this is more to do with the year in year out deteriorating state of the roads in the UK than my saddle.Arse, same shape saddle with more cushioning.
Can you tell me more regarding how it feels on rough road surfaces compared with a normal carbon racer?
On road - Pretty much as fast. Comfier. The roads around me are a state, especially as I try to plan routes around quieter back lanes and linking farm roads. It's a fast bike, but also a comfy one. Oh, and better braking and steering thanks to discs and bolt throughs.
Off road - Far more capable. It's not an off road bike, by any stretch of the imagination, but more a bike that's fast on the road but can have some fun! Can make some pretty mundane singletrack really quite exciting!
The Defy is closer to the road/race end of the spectrum, and is a lovely thing. I'd choose a Defy over a Roubaix, any time, but a Diverge over either for that versatility.
Race bikes ARE faster. If you're racing, that's clearly a good thing. But you're not.
My SAGA magazine will be dropping through the door in a few years time so I am at an age where I am now thinking function over fashion. So bugger MTFU!
Age has nothing to do with it,so as eddie11 says,toughen [s] your arse[/s] up princess,or ride more than a few miles so you get away from those hard,nasty roads 😈 😛
Cheers fella.CaptainFlashheart
I'll ignore the MTFU haters as after 200 miles this week I don't have the energy 😉
Definitely fatter tire or better tire upgrade. Often a bit less pressure re buzzz allthough 80psi with a 25 seems on the lower end of the scale
http://calfeedesign.com/shootout-calfee-manta-vs-trek-domane-rba/
Hope that link works- Calfee Manta sounds interesting
You call it a 'stead''..
You deserve to be in pain. 😉
Skinny stays on the Cervelo bikes really help tame the chatter. R or S bikes are great. The new treks are also apparently super comfy with front and rear "give" .
Defy SL and some 27c Vittoria paves take away road chatter nicely. Love mine. Has a half degree slacker head tube angle to help with handling.
Defy Advanced Pro (or SL) with big (28c) GP4000 II tires worked really well for me, they came up 31mm inflated on the wide rims the bike comes with
But definitely need the big tires, for the front end does not have the same compliance as the rear.
I found running the front at 80-85psi did the trick.
Not quite the same but I have a trek silque (WSD version of the Domane more or less), OH has a cannondale synapse. Both are carbon, both are supposedly endurance type bikes. We have a lot of rough roads up here in Scotland. I can ride the same piece of road or path as him as he's really feeling the buzz but I'm fine. Maybe it's fit on the bike but I like to think it's just that the trek dampens out the buzz more.
Domane SLR is rather nice, maybe have a look at that if your budget stretches?
My Scott CR1-SL is loads comfier (and faster) than the Boardman Alloy bike it replaced. It's their Roubaix/cobbles frame. Or at least it was when I got mine.
Is it worth buying a 2nd hand gravel bike, such as an arkose for the commute? You can have big tyres, mudguards, racks - ideal workhorse for commuting, and save your nice bike for days out.
Fit some 28c tyres if they will fit.. Can highly recommend schwalbe pro ones for fast floaty comfort
Why wheels do you have? I have fulcrum racing 5 on my Time and they are super stiff, amazing for sprinting out the saddle but they make the ride horrible. My Time is a comfy frame and with a set of open pro hand builds the ride is sublime, even with 23mm tires, but the super stiff fulcrums make it feel like riding a solid wheeled hobby horse on rough surfaces.
trek domane, if spartacus uses it on the cobbles it's good enough for us
[s]Why not just let a little bit air out the tyres? I had mine at the regulation >100psi for years because I thought that's what they were supposed to be, now I run them around 80-90psi and the ride is much more comfortable, with no discernable drop in speed or increase in punctures.[/s]
Ignore that, I see you're already running them at 80psi. Bigger tyres then, or double layers of bar tape?
Is there a saddle with a lot of spring in the rails? I remember I had a Ti railed Vetta saddle that had loads of give.
That Morgaw saddle is supposed to have bouncy bits.
Not all tyres are the same size for any given measurement so you might be able to go up to a slightly larger tyre - I have seen a gallium pro on vittoria pave which are 27mm - I use them and found they reduced buzz on my storck with carbon rims.
I also use a fizik kurve saddle which is the most comfortable saddle I have ever used - I use the snake but they do two other sizes.
On the handle bars I put a layer of the fizik gel under 3.2mm lizard skin tape which seems to reduce the buzz (I also use alloy rather than carbon bars having found the ones I tried in the past very 'buzzy')
One last thing I would say is don't expect a miracle from a different frame - my winter/cobbles bike is a decent ti running 28mm tyres and the top dressing on the roads around here (sussex) have degraded so much that you still feel battered after a decent ride
I've recently bought a GT Grade (carbon) and have been amazed how comfortable it is over poor or rough road surfaces. Something is ironing out chatter and also bigger bumps and potholes. It's quite extraordinary (compared to my steel bike.) No idea how they compare to the Diverge but it's the same sort of idea.
I had a Ritchey Road Logic 2 road bike , steel with carbon forks.
Lovey bike, sold it on this forum as it just wasn't that comfortable, and I have had a lot of steel frames. Perhaps it was more related to me being a bit older now, 60 + ....
Bought a Charge Plug 5 titanium bike with carbon forks, and 40mm wide tyres.
Much more comfortable, bit slower, but prefer this to almost any road bike I have owned.
Ti frame / carbon with wide tyres and a more gravel / touring geometry is the way to , if you aren't racing.
27.2 carbon layback post and ti railed saddle made a massive difference for me. Felt like a different bike, worth a try?
I suspect the answer is a combination of riding that sort of thing more, considering a new saddle and getting a frame that can take larger tyres. And perhaps still not expecting it to be comfy unless you have suspension.
Never really considered that different wheels could make a difference. I have the light-bicycle 40mm deep u shaped carbon wheels. Love the wheels but maybe they are just super stiff and don't help?
I have a pair of alloy cero rims that I could try as a comparison. I always thought that the amount of road buzz was just down to 2 things. How stiff your frame is, eg thickness of chain stays and what size tyres/pressure you were running?
Just to add. Current tyres are GP4000S II 25c
How stiff your frame is, eg thickness of chain stays and what size tyres/pressure you were running?
Tyres are important, yes. Frame stiffness also, but....
See also;
Bars and stem - Something with some flex or damping can really help here. Good carbon, or even ti, bars are great at soaking up a bit.
Seatpost - See above
Saddle - See above
Tape - As others have said, good tape is the shizzle.
Frame layup - Not just stiffness, but the way the frame is designed to work. Yes, we all know that laterally stiff and vertically compliant is the marketing guff to end all marketing guff, but actually (hold on!) it's what you want in a frame for your needs here. Good handling, with good comfort.
Wheels - You've sort of answered this yourself already. A set of aero-grrrr race wheels will be fast, but they won't be comfy. A set of nice hand built audax-spec wheels will be fast AND comfy.
Many factors to consider here, and that's before we even look at fit! For example, a layback seatpost. Maybe, but it might upset your positional balance overall and then you're screwed.
As others have added, if you're not racing, why ride a race bike? You wouldn't, I assume, take a full on hardcore XC race bike out on your local chilled trail loop. So, why would you take a MOAR AERO GRRRRR race road bike out for a ride?
If you're not racing....
As others have added, if you're not racing, why ride a race bike? You wouldn't, I assume, take a full on hardcore XC race bike out on your local chilled trail loop. So, why would you take a MOAR AERO GRRRRR race road bike out for a ride?
If you're not racing....
However there are only 5 points where you touch the bike, and the 2 which have more weight on them from a racier position are comfy. Going more sit up and beg will only put more weight through the saddle and - all other things being equal - exacerbate the problem.
Going more sit up and beg
Who said anything about sit up and beg?
Better position on a comfier bike (Frame, tyres, bars, post, etc). Not sit up and beg.
Going more sit up and beg will only put more weight through the saddle and - all other things being equal - exacerbate the problem.
Exactly this.
Stay light on the seat; light on the bars; press hard on the pedals.
My alloy bike feels comfortable enough, although I do run a MASSIVE seatpost.
Lizard Skins DSP bar tape (3.2mm) will be much cheaper than a new bike. Maybe one of Flashy's comfy seat posts too.
Tyres make a lot of difference and a 25c is only marginally bigger than a 23c and doesn't make that much difference. How big a tyre can you fit in frame/forks
I moved to 700x52c (not a typo) on a Singular Gryphon. Works well for me but I'm only doing a 20 mile each way commute.
Never really considered that different wheels could make a difference. I have the light-bicycle 40mm deep u shaped carbon wheels. Love the wheels but maybe they are just super stiff and don't help?
A shallow / box section ally rim will be a lot more flexible in the vertical direction than a deep carbon rim! But ive not ridden wheels like that so it could be they dampen the vibrations also, worth a try if you have a set though.
As mentioned wheels make the difference(imo) I regularly switch between 38mm u shape carbon clinchers and normal alloy shallow wheels ... Don't race now but still keep carbon for nice weather/fast rides ..
Bike is less of a bone shaker on the alloy wheels but I do like the super stiff feel on the carbon fellows 🙂
My current Sunday best is an alloy frame(which feels more compliant than any carbon frame I've owned)
[quote=flanagaj]It's more in the saddle area than the bars.
The simple solution is to stand up more. If you are just plonked firmly in the seat riding over rough ground, you are gonna feel it. Fiddling about with bike components may make a little difference, but nothing will be a magic bullet.
There is a skill in riding standing up or just off the seat, without tiring yourself out. Drop a few gears, lower cadence, relax and push.
Even seated, if you are spinning instead of grinding, you are getting more pressure on your arse. Put more power through the pedals lifting you off the seat a little more.
Never really considered that different wheels could make a difference. I have the light-bicycle 40mm deep u shaped carbon wheels. Love the wheels but maybe they are just super stiff and don't help?
Had this experience yesterday, riding back from Tring (Herts) to London.
Normally I'd ride my Shimano C24's which are excellent for absorbing road buzz with an aluminium/carbon laminate rim design.
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Instead, I had left on my deep section wheels, which I'd been using during the week for fast laps in Regent's Park, London.
Deep section were very fast, but a harsh ride (vibration and thuds) on the peppered roads going from Berkhamstead through Hemel into St. Albans.
Nobody mentioned gloves - a decent pair of gel mitts/gloves is way better than bar tape - can highly recommend Altura Pro Gel as I rode 150miles offroad yesterday on a rigid bike and my hands / wrists are fine today.
Even my carbon frame felt rock hard especially on 23mm's.
25/28mm tyres and depending on your weight, suitable pressure.
Been using my CX from the comfort and 35mm tyres.
Some interesting points raised here. I have no idea about the frame itself. All I know is that the Argon 18 Gallium Pro frame has thick chain and seat stays. It also has a carbon post, but it is a 31.6mm, which is not going to flex much.
I'll put the alloy wheels back on and I may even go with a 27.2mm post and get a reducer for the frame. That might give a little more spring in the rear.
As has been mentioned on here, I am one of those riders who always likes to stay plonked in the saddle.
I think a trial of a few different bike on the same stretch of road I ride to work is the best option. Shelling out 3k on a new bike in the hope it's going to be a magic bullet is a bit nuts.
I'll post back with the results of using the alloys.
I've got a carbon roubiux and they spec a flexy seatpost (cbl goblr) and have thick gel padded bars, which seems to work well although it's not a sofa ride and I do pick the less trashed roads as I'm sorta getting the feeling that the lack of love on the road surfaces make any bike harsh unless your riding a fat bike 😉
ti railed saddle made a massive difference for me
ride corrugated gravel roads a lot and found this helped for me as well and hovering above the seat isn't something I can do all day
Have recently bought a Ridley X Trail "gravel" bike.
A few mates decided to do a local Sportive. I decided to change the 38mm gravel grinder tyres for some 28mm Continentals. They strangely don't "feel" any faster than the "grinders" and the bike felt much the same except for grip on the crappy country roads we were on, had a couple of moments!!
I then went out for a ride on my old Ti Raliegh and didn't realise how stiff it was compared to the carbon Ridley 🙄
What about bar grips or tape that has thick gel to reduce transmission of waves.
My diverge should arrive tomorrow and although I love conti gp 4000 tyres I'm going to order a pair of compass jon bon 35c handmade slicks, the American gravellers are raving about them for both comfort and speed. They also do a 28c tyre. Quite pricy though.
I've got the Bon Jons Extra Light tubeless on one (Ti) Fargo. Also have Barlows Pass 38mm on the other (steel) but they are tubed.
Ride quality in terms of road buzz is fantastic on both.
I don't know for sure (who does?) but I have fairly basic components on one and better on the other (Ti is 9.3 kg, steel 14-15kg) and the ride quality is fantastic on both, so my suspicion is tyre quality/volume and perhaps long wheelbase are the biggest factors. Not to say the other things aren't important but the difference in road buzz dampening between my old Trek alu framed road bike with 25mm Conti All seasons and my carbon Synapse with 27 mm carbon seatpost, thick bar tape and 28mm Grand Bois tyres, is nowhere near as big as between my Synapse and either of the Fargos. I'm 70kg and run lowish pressures on all my tyres pretty much as per Jan Heine's tyre drop chart.
Of the bikes I can access, a friend's Merckx EMX-5 would be right at the other end of the spectrum, especially with carbon rims. Clearly built for speed but the road clatter is very significant.
I'd recommend trying to borrow a Diverge/Arkose/Fargo type bike so at least you know what they feel like before deciding. They handle differently of course but at least you will know what that extreme feels like.
I'm selling the Synapse as I just don't use it any more.
I don't know for sure (who does?) but I have fairly basic components on one and better on the other (Ti is 9.3 kg, steel 14-15kg) and the ride quality is fantastic on both, so my suspicion is tyre quality/volume and perhaps long wheelbase are the biggest factors
I agree, on both points. Once tyres go beyond 32-35C and are at the right pressures I'd say frame material is only about subtleties or handling stiffness, the tyres take out so much of the road buzz. eg, comparing an Arkose on big road tyres at maybe 45psi to a very comfy premium steel road bike with shallow rims + 25cs, 1 1/8" HT and Ouzo Pro fork - the Arkose is a lot comfier, it feels stiffer under power in a good way and on many local roads I'd say it rolls easier. It's a 'comfy' enough frame but it's the tyres that add most comfort.
Most 'race' road bikes are either made for speed on good surfaces or for Pros to suffer on over anything rough. UK roads are poor surfaces for race bikes. Bikes do vary a bit in 'give' but it's generally a subtle range compared to the feel of a good road bike that fits bigger tyres.
It's all perspective though - I remember being amazed maybe 8 years ago at what a nice steel frame and 25cs felt like in comparison to an average 23c-tyred race bike. Now that same steel bike feels rattly and slow over bad roads compared to a bigger-tyred bike, in the same way that a 26" MTB hangs up where a 29" rolls through easier (sorry / ducks, etc).
Carbon and Ti are better at damping down vibration.
Yet my new alu bike is more comfortable than my old CF bike...
I'd be looking at tubeless and 10 PSI less, also saddle, bar tape, seatpost, good bibshorts, good gloves.
Just fitted Specialized Bar Phat bar tape.
Makes the bars look bigger but really great at reducing the vibrations.
Ive an alu cervelo P1 as a second bike which was really great when I lived in Europe. Stiff and fast. Now I live in Cumbria my hands are buzz-destroyed in 30 miles of riding so its to be dumped via thief-bay. Now Im using my "old/2008" Look 585 (which was my best bike) for everything unless v shitty weather and then an old mtb. Even at 100-110psi the old Look bike is fine with reg tyres
25mm tyre has 20% more volume than a 23mm - means you can run lower pressure without increasing risk of pinch punctures, but it'll make no difference if you're dropping for 120 to 100 psi, more like 80. Go tubeless and you can run even lower still without increasing rolling resistance.
If you are an accomplished racer who rides everywhere at above 20mph, read no further.
Otherwise:
For rough road surfaces, trying to get a comfortable road frame usually ends up as turd polishing exercise.
The answer is bigger tyres with low rolling resistance. [url= http://www.schwalbe.com/en/balloonbikes.html ]Schwalbe explain it well.[/url]
The simplest way to do that is to buy a 29er frame and convert it into a road bike. You can get 2.35" slicks in there which is what I use, and they're ok for offroad excursions if it's not slippery.
Since doing that I've been far more inclined to do a road ride. On a 100+ mile day ride I don't see any difference in the total ride time. (Almost all our roads are rough up here)
I still have a skinny fixie for when I need a dose of discomfort.
I still reckon it's mostly down to position. That pic up there^ sort of shows how not to sit on a bike comfortably. Upright, arms locked, looks pretty stiff and rigid, hence I reckon you'd feel the vibrations much more.
Sit like the below; well balanced with no pressure on the arms or going up through your arse. Comfortable.
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