So I’m fairly up in my geometry mtb wise and happy with both my bikes.
On the road bike front I’ve always been pretty happy with my Cannondale caad12 disc (54cm size) - although I’ve run it as it came new with all the spacers under the stem - but with the angle of the stem down rather than up. I’ve also always been a bit annoyed it doesn’t have mounts for proper mudguards.
Up sides are it’s pretty light (1150g frame I think), handles nice and snappy and fun cornering for a road bike.
Mines got Ultegra di2 and Hunt 4 seasons road wheels.
With a recent back spasm it’s a bit on the low side at the front and have flipped the stem to point upwards which is better - but it looks daft.
So I’d like to pick up a new frame that does the following:
Higher front end
Still light - looking for frame only 1200g or less
Mudguard mounts
Discs
Bolt through axles
Not devastatingly expensive (£1500 max for the frameset if I can use cycle 2 work vouchers)
About all I’ve been able to find that might fit the bill is the Ribble Endurance SL. Frameset only is £1400 - pretty much any other frameset I get will mean new cranks (as I have stupid bb30a) and a new front caliper as mine is post mount front / flat mount rear.
The headtube is 11mm taller and weight should be similar. It has mudguard mounts and looks pretty nice.
I went into Ribble today to have a look at one and was hoping to get a sit on it. But apparently they don’t do that - you have to sit on a seperate jig (even though they had a medium of the bike I want literally in the shop) and someone was about to start a fitting on it. I had my 5 year old with me so no way she was going to wait for it to be free and whilst I got on. Very frustrating.
The guy in the shop said I might actually be better with their R872 as it’s more relaxed geometry again than the endurance sl. It doesn’t look quite as nice and doesn’t come frameset only - but could buy the basic tiagra one for £1500 and flog the bits I don’t need - might fund the cranks and a chunk towards some carbon wheels.
The below link should go to a geometry geek comparison of the caad / R872 / endurance sl. I stuck in the snallnof each but I think it’s medium I’d want.
Any thoughts on the options would be much appreciated. I assume stack is made up of wheelsize / fork length / head tube length?
I didn't think either Ribble was all that relaxed to be honest, then again I've got poor flexibility etc. Have you considered the Canyon Endurace or the Giant Defy - they appear to have the sportive geometry pretty much nailed. The Boardman SLR is supposed to be good too.
I saw the Boardman SLR 8.9 but haven’t seen it for sale frameset only. With a quick look the 54cm equivalent size has a lower stack and shorter headtube than my caad12 by the look of it. So that’s probably out.
I thought the endurance was quite racey from a review I read a few years ago.
Haven’t thought about the Defy - will have a look.
I spent a lot of time looking for a road bike with a good stack height, I'm tall and have a dodgy wrist so wanted a fairly upright position. Canyon tend to be more generous with stack height than most and I think Trek are as well (though with reduced reach).
I ended up getting a gravel bike that works well with road tyres as they tend to have a greater stack height. I also raised the stem as much as possible, got Ritchey Ergomax bars and extra thick bar tape. Obviously switching the stem is a bad look so I'm also looking at either a lower drop stem or perhaps a zero rise one.
Stack is the height of the top of the centre of the top tube drawn from an imaginary horizontal line through the centre of the BB... It basically dictates where your handlebars will be (for a given amount of stem spacers) in relation to your feet, height wise...
Reach is similar, but dictates where your handlebars will be (for a given stem length), in relation to your feet...
If you're struggling with your CAAD12, a bike with 12mm greater stack heigh is not going to cut it I'm afraid!!!
If you’re struggling with your CAAD12, a bike with 12mm greater stack heigh is not going to cut it I’m afraid!!!
It may do but you are probably right. If flipping stem has made it okay then just work out how many mm that has risen the bars and shortened reach. This is handy for working it out http://yojimg.net/bike/web_tools/stem.php
A quick go based on 100mm 10 degree stem puts the bars 33mm higher and 10mm less reach when flipped which is a fair bit of difference
If flipping stem has made it okay then just
ride the bike and quit worrying
ride the bike and quit worrying
As well as the height of the front the mudguard thing is a annoying me a bit the last few years. Used clip on ones which are ok - but the rear has moved around and taken paint / possibly a little bit of metal out of the seat stays 😬
Plus I’ve had it since 2018 and I fancy a new shiny frame too!
I’m considering some group road rides with the local triathlon club too - and if the road is wet then proper mudguards are required to not throw muddy water in the face of the person following.
I’ll have a look at some lighter duty gravel bikes that don’t have room for massive great tyres. When I previously looked they were all quite a bit heavier than the caad though and I don’t want to lose the nice whippy feeling it has too much.
I was looking for similar to replace my old bike. I eventually bought a Giant Revolt gravel bike (current gen). I run 32mm road tyres, and am fitting my full length mud guards tonight. I've done big days out in the mountains, and it works perfectly fine as a road bike.
The Ribble CGR SL might work - stack is higher than the road versions and it’s still light. Bit more expensive though.
Wonder if the large Planet X space chicken might work if I can find a secondhand frame only - need to look into the geometry a bit more. If I could get one cheap I could go custom paint with my local frame painter which could be cool. Nice candy metallic purple perhaps
How about riser drop bars on the CAAD? For +10-15mm height they can look ok if you don't want a flip-up stem. Kind of odd but ok. TBH if 10-15mm makes the difference could you work on core strength and flexibility and keep the bike - the CAAD10-12 frames are classics.
I’m considering some group road rides with the local triathlon club too – and if the road is wet then
go mountain biking? Shudders at the thought of bunch riding with triathletes in the wet
: )
...I’m considering some group road rides with the local triathlon club too – and if the road is wet
If the road is wet you won't need to worry about anyone behind you, they'll all have fallen off on the first bend.
Edit: dammit, beaten by @jameso ...!
Haha - I mostly mountain bike - got a Transition Sentinel and a Marino hardtail.
But sometimes the road is good for a fitness boost / to not get filthy muddy.
If the road is wet you won’t need to worry about anyone behind you, they’ll all have fallen off on the first bend.
Edit: dammit, beaten by @jameso …!
Lol - they did cancel last Sundays ride as it was “too wet” 🤷♂️
Function over form?
Grab an adjustable stem such as https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/deda-elementi-adj-adjustable-stem/rp-prod158477 that I have on my "58cm" Cube Attain GTC Pro Disc '16 for the opposite reason to you OP, to lower the front end now my lower back is far better than it was nearly six years ago.
Cube Attains have massive amounts of stack, my "58cm" (no tube is that length) has 388mm reach and 610mm stack, iirc the "56cm" (that @molgrips has iirc) is 385/591mm respectively.
I'm 5'10" (178cm) with stumpy legs, running ~89.5cm pedal top to saddle top.
No idea if this is the cheapest place, but here's a ninja version https://www.paulscycles.co.uk/bikes/road-bikes/cube-attain-sl-road-bike-2022-greyblack__8801 for £1487
There will be no adjustable stems on my bikes!
But the Cube point you raised is interesting - they do seem to have a big stack / tall headtube. Will have a look round at those - thanks 😊
Did anyone else wince at "only £1,400" for a Ribble frame? I paid about £300 for my old carbon Ribble sportive frame and fork.
Nothing wrong with riding a flipped stem OP, but I acknowledge fixed guards are a wonderful thing for riding in the wet.
There are some deals about on the new Synapse complete bikes already.
If you're interested in a PX gravel bike, their full builds are good value and you could keep two sets of wheels to swap between road and gravel.
But is the need for relaxed geometry a permanent thing? Have you ridden an endurance bike on the road before? I know they're very popular, but I had a nice Defy for a few years and I always found it a bit unengaging compared to my more sporty road bikes.
If you otherwise like the CAAD12, maybe have a look at a Synapse?
Not sure if they do a frame only but the 105 version is in your budget, downsides it's 'old' 11s 105 and cable disks.
FWIW Cannondale have always come up quite large for their size, i.e. slightly longer reach than most brands. So you may also be stretching to the bars slightly if you're a 54cm from other brands. Road bike geometry is a funny thing, half a degree here or there that you wouldn't notice on an MTB suddenly becomes a deal breaker when you're sat still on it for 4 hours.
Proper full length guards are brilliant, and completely underrated by anyone who makes do with the various clip on versions.
But the Cube point you raised is interesting – they do seem to have a big stack / tall headtube. Will have a look round at those – thanks 😊
Specialized have changed the geometry on them now but if you can find a Roubaix from a year or two ago, they were renowned for tall headtube / high stack geo.
The current ones are much closer in geo to the Tarmac, it has gone back to being a "rougher roads" race bike.
I use my old Diverge as a winter roadbike, does a good job.
Plus I’ve had it since 2018 and I fancy a new shiny frame too!
Fair enough I suppose.
I’m considering some group road rides with the local triathlon club too – and if the road is wet then proper mudguards are required
Going out with a group that doesn't enforce this rule is a mistake you only make once 🤣
So the Cube Attain doesn’t appear to have mudguard mounting points - neither does the Specialized Roubaix. 2 options out there.
I tried to find a carbon synapse frame only but failed so far (new ones). I think pre-Covid stuff like that was available but Cannondale seem to have only had full bikes or really top end hi-mod System 6 / Super 6 frames available since.
Mudguards make sense in a group otherwise you end up with a face full of muddy water for 3 hours. Mtb you aren’t riding close together so other than a front mudguard over the wheel to keep mud out the eyes I don’t bother.
My comment on the price of the Ribble wasn’t “it’s only £1400”, but “frameset only is £1400” - I.e not as a full bike.
Mudguards make sense in a group otherwise you end up with a face full of muddy water for 3 hours
They do but overly officious rules do my head in. It's fairly easy to avoid following the wheel of someone with no guards and clip ons do a reasonable enough job if you only have one bike and it doesn't have mounts. Even with most fitted guards they are not long enough to stop spray into a following riders face, most need an extra flap or need to be as long as the ones on my bike very few are.
But is the need for relaxed geometry a permanent thing? Have you ridden an endurance bike on the road before? I know they’re very popular, but I had a nice Defy for a few years and I always found it a bit unengaging compared to my more sporty road bikes.
I’ve not ridden an endurance bike before but I’ve had back issues on and off since 2011 when I bulged some discs in my lower back. This recent issue is a back spasm according to the physio (haven’t been for a recent MRI) and I’m managing it with stretching and strengthening exercises which is helping - but at this moment in time I don’t see it going back to how it was before. Work bought me a fancy adjustable office chair and sit/stand desk which is also helping manage the back ache / pain.
I appreciate I’m going to lose some urgency in the handling - which is why I’m still trying to find something on the lighter end of things and haven’t really looked at gravel bikes. I’m not going to be going crit racing but equally I don’t want some heavy / dead feeling thing.
Cube Attains do have guard points for their own guards, I have a set! 😆
5sec google
Limits rear tyre to 29mm max, without no issues with 32mm GP5000. I run narrower front tyres, currently 25mm.
My comment on the price of the Ribble wasn’t “it’s only £1400”, but “frameset only is £1400” – I.e not as a full bike.
Makes more sense, ta.
Please don't pay £1.4k for a Ribble frame, you'll make them think it's OK to ask that much.
* no issues with 32mm GP5000 without guard!
I didn’t find those Cube mudguards / they weren’t mentioned in any of the reviews I’ve found - thanks. Back on the list!
On the Ribble front I’d be inclined to do it via cycle to work vouchers so I think a £1200 voucher over 12 months is £66 a month net…so it wouldn’t cost me a massive amount
It’s fairly easy to avoid following the wheel of someone with no guards
It's only easy if you ride as an undisciplined rabble. If you ride in a tight group with rotation then it's impossible. I've ridden with clubs who have taken both of these approaches - the undisciplined rabble imposed a considerably higher load on the NHS. This afternoon I'll be fitting my proper mudguards to the Gradient to put it into winter road bike mode.
Yeah I don’t want to get mashed up through someone being a dick on a road ride. The tri club fast group ride is fairly sensible with people warning of pot holes etc in good time. No-one seems to be intent on pushing the pace on and deliberately dropping anyone etc
I've just built a bike based on the Carbonda 696 frame (Same as On-one Freeranger, Tifosi Carvazzo, Bombtrack EXT-C, Dolan GCX). It has a 25-30mm higher stack than my road bike frames (Giant TCR, PX Pro Carbon) but still handles surpisingly nicely on the road.
Can obviously take full length guards etc. I'll probably do some club rides on it in the depths of winter.
I priced it up directly from China, and it was <£700 delivered. Current On-one Freerangers are £899 with an additional 20% off, so similar.
If you look on weightweenies, hundreds of people have built gravel/winter road bikes with this frame.
@benman - have you had any road bikes to compare how the freeranger rides?
Weight wise it doesn’t look too bad at 1350g for the frame - 200g more than my caad 12 probably. But I could sell my caad12 frameset and wheels and get some lighter carbon ones to offset that a bit.
Think it has a threaded bb so could sell my Cannondale Si crankset and get something from Shimano - or something with a power meter if I’m feeling flash.
Will have a dig around in weight weenies to find out a bit more about it.
So the Cube Attain doesn’t appear to have mudguard mounting points
Yep they do, this is the reason I bought one. They make specific full mudguards for them which have various cut-outs and mounts to fit. They aren't perfect as guards but they do fit perfectly, perfect lines and zero rattles. Very glad I have these without needing to bodge anything.
Don't over-tighten the bolts holding them on - it squidges the rubber pads out of place and you might lose them.
If you didn't have access to a genuine Cube set I think you'd be able to bodge a set using the threaded holes provided. I think other bikes might use the same method - Boardman?
@joebristol I've had loads of road bikes. I do 5000+ miles a year on the road.
I usually favour more racey geometry, but I've built the Carbonda frame (mines actually a Tifosi Carvazzo) as a commuter, tourer and to race the Dirty Reiver on next year.
I've been pleasantly surprised how nicely it rides on the road. The reach is about 5mm shorter than my road bikes, and stack is 25-30mm higher. I've got the stem slammed 🙂 It still handles quite nicely (my last gravel bike felt really unweildly on the road) and zips along. Averaged 18.5mph on one day of our cycle tour last weekend.
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There are some gopping on one colour schemes - I don’t know who designs them! Your Tifosi looks nice.
I have a mate who has a freeranger actually - forgot about that. His is built up for gravel but will see if I can go and have a look at it. £900 currently from Planet X which is a chunk cheaper than the Ribble.
On-one currently have 20% off if you are quick. And they do a solid black one now (the other colours are gopping)
Something worth noting though, is that the max chainset you can run is 50/34 on these frames.
If you ride in a tight group with rotation then it’s impossible
True but my winter rides are not chain gangs and I have no desire to pretend to be a racer especially if it's wet. Winter group rides are for chatting and eating cake not through and off smash fest's, if that means some riders only have clip on guards or shock horror no guards at all so be it, it's hardly the end of the world imo.
If you fancy a new bike/frame that's fair, but if you want to make what you have work...
Raceblade Pro XL mudguards are great and if you fit them as per instructions they won't mark your frame. They are also easy to take on and off once set up, which is why I use them rather than bolt on mudguards.
Riser handlebars can really help. I recently got a set of Specialized Hover Expert on eBay and they transform the way the bike feels without (I think) looking too bad. This possibly combined with some stem length adjustment might sort it out for you.
If you do get a new endurance frame, in classic STW recommend what you own mode - look at the Giant Defy range.
Winter group rides are for chatting and eating cake not through and off smash fest’
I'm not talking about a through and off bash. I'm talking about riding 2 by 2 in a group with regular rotation so that no one spends too long in the wind and you get to chat to different people. Very sociable. But it does mean that you are riding reasonably close behind people so mudguards and preferably mudflaps are a must.
Medium Defy. Or any 56cm 73 degree parallel steel or titanium frame with eyelets for mudguards would be my choice. The Cannodales come up quite large for a 54 due to the steeper seat tube angle. I'm guessing you're about 5'9"-5'-11". I rode a 54 CAAD8 and Medium Defy, but am normally a 56 for 73 degree parallel bikes (like my Paddy Wagon).
I'd get one of these Ti Audax from Spa Cycles in a 56.
https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m11b17s143p2371/SPA-CYCLES-Titanium-Audax-Frameset
EDIT - or an Elan since you wanted discs.
I’ve got Raceblades already - I think they’re the stealth xl - I hadn’t realised they’d worn through the frame protection tape I had underneath them - it was only when I took them off for the summer I noticed. Little bit angry about that!
50/34 wouldn’t be a problem for me - that’s what I’m running now. I found 52/36 hard work on the biggest / steepest hills. I also run an 11-32 Ultegra cassette - horror of horrors 🫣
That spa cycles frame isn’t floating my boat on looks. Call me picky. Plus it’s externally routed and I’ve got the di2 with full wires and that might look a bit odd external.
It almost certainly won’t be near 1150g frameset only either in steel.
You’re right on my height - I’m 5’9 - longer of leg / shorter of arm. My full suss mtb is 451mm reach and my hardtail is 445mm. I’m never really sure how you work out a sensible reach figure for road - I guess it’s less relevant than mtb as you only really stand when climbing. Etc is presumably more relevant?
Defy is something on my list now - along with the Cube attain, Ribble R872 and maybe a Free Ranger / Carbonda 696. Carbon Synapse if I can find a frame only.
Torn between trying to find something cheap secondhand or do a C2W scheme and get something new.
My carbon Defy doesn't have mudguard mounts and it's a while since they made an aluminium one.
Hmmmn, it’s a minefield.
At the moment the On One Freeranger or Ribble R872 are looking the most likely. Have to buy the R872 as a full bike and then flog all the bits I don’t need.
I can’t find the frame only weight for the R872 but looking at the full build weights it can’t be biblically heavy or anything.
